| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... 19:05 - Feb 21 with 6304 views | pointofblue |
... the topic in hand.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68349957
Led by donkeys is quite apt, really. From the outside looking in, it does feel like the Speaker has unnecessarily inserted himself into a party issue, and now distracted from one of the most important subjects of the moment. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:46 - Feb 22 with 1288 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:34 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
In truth the UK's stance means nothing in the greater scheme of things. I suppose if we withdraw support it may increase pressure on America but really internal politics will steer direction there, rather rather than what their allies are saying or doing. |
The UK is one of only five permanent members of the Security Council so to say its stance means nothing is far from the truth.
As it is, by abstaining in the Security Council it is giving cover to the US which I am sure the US will welcome.
But sadly we now have the two main parties terrified to be out of step with the US, such that changes in their approach merely reflect changes in the US approach. And just look where our poodle-like approach to Iraq got us. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:52]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:46 - Feb 22 with 1281 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:41 - Feb 22 by DanTheMan |
My understanding is it's the collective punishment bit that Labour were against. |
That is the case. This is the differences in the three, taken from the BBC's website:
Scottish National Party
They proposed the original motion, which called for an “immediate ceasefire”
The SNP insisted this was “only way to stop the slaughter of innocent civilians”
Crucially, and in opposition to Labour, it also condemned the “collective punishment” of Palestinians, a technical term that amounts to a war crime
Labour
Labour’s amendment to the SNP motion called for an “immediate humanitarian ceasefire”
It emphasised the role of Hamas as well as Israel in bringing about a lasting pause in fighting
It also calls for "rapid and unimpeded" humanitarian aid to be let in to Gaza
Parliament ultimately backed this amendment
Government
The Tory government put forward an “immediate humanitarian pause” as the best way to stop the fighting
It stresses that it supports Israel's right to defend itself and recover its hostages, which may require further military action
The Tories also supported moves "towards a permanent sustainable ceasefire"
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Labour could have always withdrawn the whip on the SNP motion and Conservative amendment, allowing MPs to vote with their conscience and explaining the differences they had with both so as not to support it as a party | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:54 - Feb 22 with 1227 views | Guthrum |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:34 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
In truth the UK's stance means nothing in the greater scheme of things. I suppose if we withdraw support it may increase pressure on America but really internal politics will steer direction there, rather rather than what their allies are saying or doing. |
Internal politics - in an election year - is what's driving things in both the UK and USA. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:58 - Feb 22 with 1208 views | Guthrum |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:41 - Feb 22 by DanTheMan |
My understanding is it's the collective punishment bit that Labour were against. |
Which is quite important. "Collective punishment" is a technical term implying a specific war crime. Whereas a general motion of censure does not. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:04 - Feb 22 with 1182 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:46 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
That is the case. This is the differences in the three, taken from the BBC's website:
Scottish National Party
They proposed the original motion, which called for an “immediate ceasefire”
The SNP insisted this was “only way to stop the slaughter of innocent civilians”
Crucially, and in opposition to Labour, it also condemned the “collective punishment” of Palestinians, a technical term that amounts to a war crime
Labour
Labour’s amendment to the SNP motion called for an “immediate humanitarian ceasefire”
It emphasised the role of Hamas as well as Israel in bringing about a lasting pause in fighting
It also calls for "rapid and unimpeded" humanitarian aid to be let in to Gaza
Parliament ultimately backed this amendment
Government
The Tory government put forward an “immediate humanitarian pause” as the best way to stop the fighting
It stresses that it supports Israel's right to defend itself and recover its hostages, which may require further military action
The Tories also supported moves "towards a permanent sustainable ceasefire"
------------------------
Labour could have always withdrawn the whip on the SNP motion and Conservative amendment, allowing MPs to vote with their conscience and explaining the differences they had with both so as not to support it as a party |
The Labour amendment was heavily caveated, and as Iain Duncan-Smith said was effectively the same as the Tories', but it did manage to crowbar in the words "immediate" and "ceasefire", with the addition of the word "humanitarian" rather muddying things.
This is the relevant part.
That this House ......."supports Australia, Canada and New Zealand’s calls for Hamas to release and return all hostages and for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, which means an immediate stop to the fighting and a ceasefire that lasts and is observed by all sides, noting that Israel cannot be expected to cease fighting if Hamas continues with violence and that Israelis have the right to the assurance that the horror of 7 October 2023 cannot happen again; therefore supports diplomatic mediation efforts to achieve a lasting ceasefire; " [Post edited 22 Feb 10:13]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:04 - Feb 22 with 1181 views | DanTheMan |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:44 - Feb 22 by Keno |
From the BBC
"As a reminder, the original SNP motion called for an "immediate ceasefire" and said Israel's war amounted to "collective punishment" of Palestinians, a position Labour did not support. Meanwhile the government amendment called for a "humanitarian pause". Hoyle then allowed a Labour amendment calling for an "immediate humanitarian ceasefire""
Talk about semantics |
As Guthrum said, it's basically that one of them is accusing Israel of a war crime that's important and which some MPs would be uncomfortable with.
Just going to quote a Tory MP Sir Charles Walker here.
"I don't know how we got to this point, it does not reflect well on Parliament. People are frightened, people have weaponised this debate in this chamber. Whips are frightened for their flocks because MPs feel they have to vote in a certain way to safeguard their safety"
This is where we are at right now. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:08 - Feb 22 with 1166 views | blueasfook |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:23 - Feb 22 by DJR |
I don't think it is pointless posturing, given the stance of the leadership of both main parties is out of step with public opinion..
The US vetoed, and the UK abstained on, a UN Security resolution the other day which called for an immediate ceasefire, but France voted for it. But it is clear that both the US and the UK governments are becoming increasingly concerned about the actions of the Israeli government and shifting their position, such that were either (and especially the US) to call for an immediate ceasefire, it would put great pressure on Israel.
But they won't do this without further pressure, and so long as they don't there will be no effective break on Israeli action. |
When you know who primarily sells arms to Israel you will understand the US and UK's reluctance to call for a ceasefire. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:23 - Feb 22 with 1119 views | DJR |
Interesting piece in the Guardian about the risk to MPs being shifted to Tory MPs as a result of the Speaker's ruling. This might explain why the Government withdrew their amendment but who knows?
[Maria Caulfield] said his ruling was biased against the Conservatives. On the Today programme she said that Hoyle had arranged the votes to take place in such a way as to reduce the risk of Labour MPs having to make a choice that would expose them to threats, but to increase the risk of Conservative MPs having to make a choice that would expose them to threats. She explained:
"My concern was that, because [Hoyle] came under undue pressure from the Labour leader, because Labour were worried about losing that vote, for whatever reason … that meant that we will be the only party who would not be supporting the SNP motion, and that all the fire would come on Conservative MPs.
I just felt that you know, he was putting party politics above the impartiality of the speaker. He took the threat to Labour MPs seriously, but took no consideration of what would happen to Conservative MPs."
Caulfield was referring to the fact that, if the votes had taken place yesterday in line with the established rules, Labour MPs would not have been able to vote on their own motion, but would have had to take a view on the SNP one. The last time this happened, many received threats for not voting with for the SNP ceasefire proposal.
As a result of the Hoyle ruling, the Tories would have had to vote down two immediate ceasefire motions – Labour’s and the SNP’s – if they wanted to vote for their own immediate humanitarian pause one. (Under the conventional rules, they would have only had to vote down the SNP one to get a vote on their own.) [Post edited 22 Feb 10:24]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:23 - Feb 22 with 1111 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:46 - Feb 22 by DJR |
The UK is one of only five permanent members of the Security Council so to say its stance means nothing is far from the truth.
As it is, by abstaining in the Security Council it is giving cover to the US which I am sure the US will welcome.
But sadly we now have the two main parties terrified to be out of step with the US, such that changes in their approach merely reflect changes in the US approach. And just look where our poodle-like approach to Iraq got us. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:52]
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France is a permanent member of the Security Council and called on an immediate ceasefire - it has not changed the US' approach. Should the UK vote for a ceasefire, it still wouldn't change America's approach. I wish we would but it wouldn't make much difference. The only thing that would is if the stance starts affecting the Democrats in the polls.
If the UK really wants to make an impact then withdrawing military support would do more. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:34 - Feb 22 with 1066 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:23 - Feb 22 by DJR |
Interesting piece in the Guardian about the risk to MPs being shifted to Tory MPs as a result of the Speaker's ruling. This might explain why the Government withdrew their amendment but who knows?
[Maria Caulfield] said his ruling was biased against the Conservatives. On the Today programme she said that Hoyle had arranged the votes to take place in such a way as to reduce the risk of Labour MPs having to make a choice that would expose them to threats, but to increase the risk of Conservative MPs having to make a choice that would expose them to threats. She explained:
"My concern was that, because [Hoyle] came under undue pressure from the Labour leader, because Labour were worried about losing that vote, for whatever reason … that meant that we will be the only party who would not be supporting the SNP motion, and that all the fire would come on Conservative MPs.
I just felt that you know, he was putting party politics above the impartiality of the speaker. He took the threat to Labour MPs seriously, but took no consideration of what would happen to Conservative MPs."
Caulfield was referring to the fact that, if the votes had taken place yesterday in line with the established rules, Labour MPs would not have been able to vote on their own motion, but would have had to take a view on the SNP one. The last time this happened, many received threats for not voting with for the SNP ceasefire proposal.
As a result of the Hoyle ruling, the Tories would have had to vote down two immediate ceasefire motions – Labour’s and the SNP’s – if they wanted to vote for their own immediate humanitarian pause one. (Under the conventional rules, they would have only had to vote down the SNP one to get a vote on their own.) [Post edited 22 Feb 10:24]
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Or maybe this is the reason.
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:38 - Feb 22 with 1053 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:23 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
France is a permanent member of the Security Council and called on an immediate ceasefire - it has not changed the US' approach. Should the UK vote for a ceasefire, it still wouldn't change America's approach. I wish we would but it wouldn't make much difference. The only thing that would is if the stance starts affecting the Democrats in the polls.
If the UK really wants to make an impact then withdrawing military support would do more. |
I think it is already affecting support for Biden but I am sure his position would be further weakened if the US were left completely isolated by the UK voting for an immediate ceasefire.
But sadly it's all rather academic (and you may be more right than me) because the UK isn't going to isolate the US.
[Post edited 22 Feb 10:42]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:43 - Feb 22 with 1037 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:38 - Feb 22 by DJR |
I think it is already affecting support for Biden but I am sure his position would be further weakened if the US were left completely isolated by the UK voting for an immediate ceasefire.
But sadly it's all rather academic (and you may be more right than me) because the UK isn't going to isolate the US.
[Post edited 22 Feb 10:42]
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I think the make up of America means voting against Israel would have more of an impact that the current stance, but it perhaps becoming a finer and finer line to be treaded. I do think the UK following the US is put under more scrutiny here than the US having the UK's support, or not, does in the States. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:55 - Feb 22 with 1012 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:08 - Feb 22 by blueasfook |
When you know who primarily sells arms to Israel you will understand the US and UK's reluctance to call for a ceasefire. |
US yes, but the UK represents less than 1% of Israeli arms imports - less than countries such as Panama, South Korea and Thailand (and of course Russia). | | | |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:59 - Feb 22 with 988 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 10:43 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
I think the make up of America means voting against Israel would have more of an impact that the current stance, but it perhaps becoming a finer and finer line to be treaded. I do think the UK following the US is put under more scrutiny here than the US having the UK's support, or not, does in the States. |
That's certainly true, and Biden himself also has very close ties to Israel. But there is also the slightly strange position that the Republican House of Representatives is holding up military aid to Israel, although that appears to be about party politics (particularly in an election year) rather than lack of support for Israel. [Post edited 22 Feb 11:00]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 11:01 - Feb 22 with 981 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 08:24 - Feb 22 by ElephantintheRoom |
Meanwhile at more or less the same time, the Israeli parliament has voted never to recognise a Palestinian state. Now there’s a vote with a bit more consequence than pointless posturing in the mother of parliaments |
That's not correct. The vote was the rejection of any "unilateral" recognition of a Palestinian state. Not "never to recognise a Palestinian state".
Facts matter in these discussions.
Netanyahu is on record as saying he rejects any two state solution but tat certainly wasn't what yesterday's vote states. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 11:02 - Feb 22 with 974 views | Ryorry |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:46 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
That is the case. This is the differences in the three, taken from the BBC's website:
Scottish National Party
They proposed the original motion, which called for an “immediate ceasefire”
The SNP insisted this was “only way to stop the slaughter of innocent civilians”
Crucially, and in opposition to Labour, it also condemned the “collective punishment” of Palestinians, a technical term that amounts to a war crime
Labour
Labour’s amendment to the SNP motion called for an “immediate humanitarian ceasefire”
It emphasised the role of Hamas as well as Israel in bringing about a lasting pause in fighting
It also calls for "rapid and unimpeded" humanitarian aid to be let in to Gaza
Parliament ultimately backed this amendment
Government
The Tory government put forward an “immediate humanitarian pause” as the best way to stop the fighting
It stresses that it supports Israel's right to defend itself and recover its hostages, which may require further military action
The Tories also supported moves "towards a permanent sustainable ceasefire"
------------------------
Labour could have always withdrawn the whip on the SNP motion and Conservative amendment, allowing MPs to vote with their conscience and explaining the differences they had with both so as not to support it as a party |
Excellent, thanks for the clarification. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 11:30 - Feb 22 with 919 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:32 - Feb 22 by DanTheMan |
Because it would have forced MPs to vote against something that they're being threatened about.
I'm not saying anyone comes out of this particularly well but people seem way more upset about breaking procedure than they do about threats to MPs, or indeed what they were actually voting on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68349957?ns_mchannel=social&ns_s [Post edited 22 Feb 9:39]
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I agree 100% that it is absolutely disgusting that Labour MPs, particularly women, were terrified of exiting the Commons yesterday due to a pro-Palestine mob protesting outside and various threats they have been receiving over the past few months. But we are not a properly functioning democracy if this is a factor in how our members of parliament vote.
At the end of the day this is the result of tolerating racism and hatred being regularly spread on our streets since 7/10. The atmosphere has been one of intimidation from the start. I did point out at the beginning that what starts with the Jews never ends with the Jews. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 11:48 - Feb 22 with 879 views | Keno |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 11:30 - Feb 22 by GlasgowBlue |
I agree 100% that it is absolutely disgusting that Labour MPs, particularly women, were terrified of exiting the Commons yesterday due to a pro-Palestine mob protesting outside and various threats they have been receiving over the past few months. But we are not a properly functioning democracy if this is a factor in how our members of parliament vote.
At the end of the day this is the result of tolerating racism and hatred being regularly spread on our streets since 7/10. The atmosphere has been one of intimidation from the start. I did point out at the beginning that what starts with the Jews never ends with the Jews. |
This is a valid but sad point very well made |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:05 - Feb 22 with 848 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:33 - Feb 22 by DJR |
The filibustering by Chris Bryant and others yesterday to give time for the deal with the Speaker to be agreed is pretty disgraceful too.
The more time goes on the more Groucho Marx's words seem apt to describe Labour under Starmer, and as you imply it doesn't augur well for government.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others." [Post edited 22 Feb 9:51]
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Starmer’s every action is with one objective in mind, win the next election. Since there would have been a rebellion within Labour ranks, not follow the party line, the Speaker was side stepped into making a very silly decision.
As if anyone would let one vote change their own voting intentions.
Presumably once the election is won Labour stance on many issues will change. They will say the mess they found was worse than they expected which will of course be far from the truth.
I can see me spoiling my ballot paper come the election by crossing through all candidates [Post edited 22 Feb 12:24]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:13 - Feb 22 with 809 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:05 - Feb 22 by Pinewoodblue |
Starmer’s every action is with one objective in mind, win the next election. Since there would have been a rebellion within Labour ranks, not follow the party line, the Speaker was side stepped into making a very silly decision.
As if anyone would let one vote change their own voting intentions.
Presumably once the election is won Labour stance on many issues will change. They will say the mess they found was worse than they expected which will of course be far from the truth.
I can see me spoiling my ballot paper come the election by crossing through all candidates [Post edited 22 Feb 12:24]
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I'm hoping I can support the Lib Dems or Green manifestos, otherwise I will be doing the same. Whatever the Conservatives or Labour put in theirs, I do not trust them so cannot vote for them. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:22 - Feb 22 with 780 views | backwaywhen |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 23:13 - Feb 21 by pointofblue |
Exactly this. Starmer turned the whole thing into a political football in order to stave off a Labour rebellion. It had nothing to do with the people of Gaza and all about his position within the party.
I will be surprised if the Conservatives don't tell him "jump or be pushed". It's about the only thing I would agree with them on in a very long time. |
Starmer …..not fit for purpose. | | | |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:36 - Feb 22 with 744 views | Ryorry |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:13 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
I'm hoping I can support the Lib Dems or Green manifestos, otherwise I will be doing the same. Whatever the Conservatives or Labour put in theirs, I do not trust them so cannot vote for them. |
You cannot afford to be complacent - unless you’re willing to allow this stinking, corrupt, shameless shower of shoite douchebags back in.
Complacency and apathy amongst voters is the Tories’ greatest weapon and hope. The outcome of the next GE is not a foregone conclusion. All it takes is a few million people predicting a Labour landslide, then not bothering to vote, or spoiling their papers, and the JRMs, Rishis etc. will be back in. No vote should be wasted, even in supposedly‘safe’ seats. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:43 - Feb 22 with 723 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:36 - Feb 22 by Ryorry |
You cannot afford to be complacent - unless you’re willing to allow this stinking, corrupt, shameless shower of shoite douchebags back in.
Complacency and apathy amongst voters is the Tories’ greatest weapon and hope. The outcome of the next GE is not a foregone conclusion. All it takes is a few million people predicting a Labour landslide, then not bothering to vote, or spoiling their papers, and the JRMs, Rishis etc. will be back in. No vote should be wasted, even in supposedly‘safe’ seats. |
I have so little faith on Labour now, I cannot see much of a difference between them and the Conservatives on so many levels. They come across as corrupt and they're not even in power yet. So Labour win, the Conservatives win... the country tailspins regardless. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 13:14 - Feb 22 with 682 views | giant_stow |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 12:43 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
I have so little faith on Labour now, I cannot see much of a difference between them and the Conservatives on so many levels. They come across as corrupt and they're not even in power yet. So Labour win, the Conservatives win... the country tailspins regardless. |
I understand your gloom, but can't help feel your conclusion is way out. |  |
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