| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. 19:02 - Apr 16 with 3788 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Figures! |  |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 09:18 - Apr 17 with 1265 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 22:19 - Apr 16 by lowhouseblue |
jeez that's a dull line even for you. and where's the link to the guardian. 1/10, must try harder. |
We all need a Daily Star moment now and again Lowers! x | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 09:19 - Apr 17 with 1265 views | DJR |
It was Samuel Johnson who said that "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
And here is an interesting article from the Merriam-Webster dictionary about the origins, current meaning, similarities and differences between the patriotism and "nationalism.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/patriotism-vs-nationalism
It states.
"There are still obvious areas of overlap: we define patriotism as “love for or devotion to one’s country” and nationalism in part as “loyalty and devotion to a nation.” But the definition of nationalism also includes “exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.”
This latter definition clearly applies to many on the right of the Tory party, as well as UKIP, Reform and the philosophy underlying Brexit. Starmer is clearly tapping into this, but in my view would properly be regarded as a patriot.
I might add that I regard the nationalism underlying Brexit as a primarily English one, because it didn't really cut through in Scotland.
Finally, Blair tapped into this in what I would regard as a more positive way than Starmer with things like Cool Britannia. [Post edited 17 Apr 10:00]
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 09:48 - Apr 17 with 1226 views | NthQldITFC |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 22:43 - Apr 16 by Kropotkin123 |
Looking at evidence from around the world, I see no confusion. Just someone hiding behind semantics.
Also: "Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state."
Please feel free to elaborate on how "loving ones country" is different from "the feeling of love... to a country". [Post edited 16 Apr 22:57]
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The only reliable language is maths|math|mathematics. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 09:49 - Apr 17 with 1213 views | lowhouseblue |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 09:18 - Apr 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
We all need a Daily Star moment now and again Lowers! x |
i really don't think that you need to dumb down. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 10:22 - Apr 17 with 1164 views | jayessess |
Always think toolmaker's a really interesting occupation to talk about for his working-class credentials. Because manufacturing is so diminished in modern Britain, I'm betting maybe 80% of the population has never come across one and their only idea of what it involves comes from a literal reading of the name.
They're also just an interesting social fraction in British social history. They're basically the most skilled category of craft worker, the real "aristocrats of labour". In the 19th/early 20th Century that makes them really key in forming early trade unions and socialist organisations (less skilled workers are generally less likely to have the income or job security required to build such things). But after 1945, they're often a more conservative influence in the labour movement because the post-war settlement (with its high taxes and strong trade unions) erodes their differentials (ie. the gap between their wages and the wages of the unskilled). In lots of manufacturing companies, toolmakers spend a lot of the 1960s and 1970s campaigning to be upgraded to "staff status" so they can get salaries rather than hourly wages, use the staff canteen, generally get some of the trappings of white collar work. Big strike at British Leyland in 1977 over this.
Starmer tends to use it for prole points, but I genuinely think it's fascinating context for the formation of his politics! [Post edited 17 Apr 14:01]
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 10:58 - Apr 17 with 1098 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 10:22 - Apr 17 by jayessess |
Always think toolmaker's a really interesting occupation to talk about for his working-class credentials. Because manufacturing is so diminished in modern Britain, I'm betting maybe 80% of the population has never come across one and their only idea of what it involves comes from a literal reading of the name.
They're also just an interesting social fraction in British social history. They're basically the most skilled category of craft worker, the real "aristocrats of labour". In the 19th/early 20th Century that makes them really key in forming early trade unions and socialist organisations (less skilled workers are generally less likely to have the income or job security required to build such things). But after 1945, they're often a more conservative influence in the labour movement because the post-war settlement (with its high taxes and strong trade unions) erodes their differentials (ie. the gap between their wages and the wages of the unskilled). In lots of manufacturing companies, toolmakers spend a lot of the 1960s and 1970s campaigning to be upgraded to "staff status" so they can get salaries rather than hourly wages, use the staff canteen, generally get some of the trappings of white collar work. Big strike at British Leyland in 1977 over this.
Starmer tends to use it for prole points, but I genuinely think it's fascinating context for the formation of his politics! [Post edited 17 Apr 14:01]
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Thanks for that insight. | | | |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 12:18 - Apr 17 with 1041 views | jayessess |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 10:58 - Apr 17 by DJR |
Thanks for that insight. |
spent four years writing a book/PhD on workplace politics in car manufacturing, always good to have outlets for this mountain of useless knowledge I accumulated over half a decade! | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 12:38 - Apr 17 with 984 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 12:18 - Apr 17 by jayessess |
spent four years writing a book/PhD on workplace politics in car manufacturing, always good to have outlets for this mountain of useless knowledge I accumulated over half a decade! |
I certainly well remember the phrase "our differentials are being eroded" from that time but probably didn't fully appreciate its significance. | | | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 12:39 - Apr 17 with 982 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 06:46 - Apr 17 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s not semantics. There is a big difference between nationalism and
patriotism. Patriotism is based on love and affection whilst nationalism is rooted in resentment and superiority. Nationalism is the belief in one’s country, right or wrong and it tends to come with contempt of other nations and even other cultures in one’s own country. Patriotism is the love of one’s country and pride in all of the different cultures that make up the country. Patriotism also strives to improve the country because of one’s love for it. |
Nothing I said was to do with resentment or superioity, was it? I suggested if people love their country less, they'll observe more faults and be better able to improve it. Your definition proves your criticism of my post was unjust and ill-applied.
The last two lines of your post are not a definition, they are a fanciful extrapolation that doesn't reconcile with reality. |  |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 12:42 - Apr 17 with 977 views | jayessess |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 12:38 - Apr 17 by DJR |
I certainly well remember the phrase "our differentials are being eroded" from that time but probably didn't fully appreciate its significance. |
One of many bits of industrial relations jargon that was in everyday parlance until de-industrialisation and trade union decline kicked in. A lost world... | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:25 - Apr 17 with 939 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 09:49 - Apr 17 by lowhouseblue |
i really don't think that you need to dumb down. |
Lol...you have to love that Zapers gave you an uppie for this x | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:33 - Apr 17 with 913 views | Zapers |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:25 - Apr 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Lol...you have to love that Zapers gave you an uppie for this x |
Yep, credit where credit is due, someone at least speaking sense. |  | | |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:40 - Apr 17 with 895 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:33 - Apr 17 by Zapers |
Yep, credit where credit is due, someone at least speaking sense. |
Although understanding words isn't really a strong point of yours is it dear boy! | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:52 - Apr 17 with 870 views | Zapers |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 13:40 - Apr 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Although understanding words isn't really a strong point of yours is it dear boy! |
I’m not your dear boy,
enjoy your day slave;) | | | |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 14:04 - Apr 17 with 847 views | Ryorry |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 10:22 - Apr 17 by jayessess |
Always think toolmaker's a really interesting occupation to talk about for his working-class credentials. Because manufacturing is so diminished in modern Britain, I'm betting maybe 80% of the population has never come across one and their only idea of what it involves comes from a literal reading of the name.
They're also just an interesting social fraction in British social history. They're basically the most skilled category of craft worker, the real "aristocrats of labour". In the 19th/early 20th Century that makes them really key in forming early trade unions and socialist organisations (less skilled workers are generally less likely to have the income or job security required to build such things). But after 1945, they're often a more conservative influence in the labour movement because the post-war settlement (with its high taxes and strong trade unions) erodes their differentials (ie. the gap between their wages and the wages of the unskilled). In lots of manufacturing companies, toolmakers spend a lot of the 1960s and 1970s campaigning to be upgraded to "staff status" so they can get salaries rather than hourly wages, use the staff canteen, generally get some of the trappings of white collar work. Big strike at British Leyland in 1977 over this.
Starmer tends to use it for prole points, but I genuinely think it's fascinating context for the formation of his politics! [Post edited 17 Apr 14:01]
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For anyone interested (Guthers?!) R4Xtra has been running a serialised dramatisation of 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' last week & yesterday -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m001y1h4 |  |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 17:02 - Apr 17 with 754 views | J2BLUE |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 07:56 - Apr 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
"Patriotism is the love of one’s country and pride in all of the different cultures that make up the country."
And you think that is the instinct that Starmer and all the others are trying to evoke when they do all that flag stuff and talk of their pride.....nothing to do with boats and Brexit? |
I suspect Starmer is having to do things like that to remove himself from any comparisons to Corbyn. Remember Corbyn? He was shagging the right flag though wasn't he?
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 18:53 - Apr 17 with 668 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 17:02 - Apr 17 by J2BLUE |
I suspect Starmer is having to do things like that to remove himself from any comparisons to Corbyn. Remember Corbyn? He was shagging the right flag though wasn't he?
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You seem a little fraught of late J2, are you ok?
What is your problem with Palestinians? | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 19:51 - Apr 17 with 634 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 17:02 - Apr 17 by J2BLUE |
I suspect Starmer is having to do things like that to remove himself from any comparisons to Corbyn. Remember Corbyn? He was shagging the right flag though wasn't he?
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Jezza does love a bit of flag shagging.
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 19:55 - Apr 17 with 618 views | J2BLUE |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 18:53 - Apr 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You seem a little fraught of late J2, are you ok?
What is your problem with Palestinians? |
I have zero problem with Palestinians as you know.
Can't say i'm shocked that is how you try and push it though. | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 20:09 - Apr 17 with 579 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 17:02 - Apr 17 by J2BLUE |
I suspect Starmer is having to do things like that to remove himself from any comparisons to Corbyn. Remember Corbyn? He was shagging the right flag though wasn't he?
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I’m not one for waving flags around for my country or anyone else’s, but he was spot on and consistent in calling for a cease fire and the release of the hostages. Very slowly everyone else has moved to the cease fire position now, even the previously gung-ho Americans. (Obviously everyone always wanted the release of the hostages, but for some reason thought bombing the crap out of women and children in Gaza would bring that about). |  |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 20:15 - Apr 17 with 557 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 20:09 - Apr 17 by Swansea_Blue |
I’m not one for waving flags around for my country or anyone else’s, but he was spot on and consistent in calling for a cease fire and the release of the hostages. Very slowly everyone else has moved to the cease fire position now, even the previously gung-ho Americans. (Obviously everyone always wanted the release of the hostages, but for some reason thought bombing the crap out of women and children in Gaza would bring that about). |
Was he spot on when he said that Hamas were "dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region" and that being "labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is really a big mistake"? | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 20:31 - Apr 17 with 523 views | GlasgowBlue |
Chers Banksy. All day long I've had the Clash 'Bankrobber' going through my brain. With a slight alteration.
My daddy was a tool maker
But he never hurt nobody | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 20:34 - Apr 17 with 511 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 20:15 - Apr 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Was he spot on when he said that Hamas were "dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region" and that being "labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is really a big mistake"? |
Probably not. An organisation using people as shields doesn’t strike me as one that’s looking out for them. | |
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| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 22:10 - Apr 17 with 424 views | Leaky |
| Keir Starmer’s dad was a tool maker. on 21:46 - Apr 16 by Swansea_Blue |
I suspect he does, but there’s probably about X million people in the UK who don’t.
(X = Sun, Express, Daily Mail and Telegraphy readers, GB News followers, anyone else who’s supported Foreign Office policy over the last 14 years, anyone who’s voted UKIP/Reform party or who thinks Farage is a good egg because he likes a pint, 98 % of Brexit voters, anyone who’s bought a Dyson or a JCB or Boris Johnson and anyone else who’s courted Russian spies and honoured their families).
So probably X = around 15 million foolish, misguided people. |
That's me screwed just for liking a pint buying a Dyson that's apart from voting leave |  | | |
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