| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:00 - Jun 7 with 2867 views | WeWereZombies |
Is that what that article is really about, I got more of a sense of elder people being scared of immigrants. |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:10 - Jun 7 with 2837 views | Pinewoodblue |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:00 - Jun 7 by WeWereZombies |
Is that what that article is really about, I got more of a sense of elder people being scared of immigrants. |
Guess you didn’t read the full article. |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:17 - Jun 7 with 2819 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:00 - Jun 7 by WeWereZombies |
Is that what that article is really about, I got more of a sense of elder people being scared of immigrants. |
The surveillance state bit is just my personal nod to our dystopian future. |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:22 - Jun 7 with 2806 views | Swansea_Blue |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:00 - Jun 7 by WeWereZombies |
Is that what that article is really about, I got more of a sense of elder people being scared of immigrants. |
“He and his wife, a retired middle-school French teacher, lived in what he called a “nice new-build flat” and spend six months of the year in Spain. “Emmanuel Macron turned me to the National Rally, because he’s done nothing about crime and insecurity, we’re invaded by immigrants,” he said.”
These people have zero self awareness  |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:14 - Jun 7 with 2721 views | DJR |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:22 - Jun 7 by Swansea_Blue |
“He and his wife, a retired middle-school French teacher, lived in what he called a “nice new-build flat” and spend six months of the year in Spain. “Emmanuel Macron turned me to the National Rally, because he’s done nothing about crime and insecurity, we’re invaded by immigrants,” he said.”
These people have zero self awareness |
On my occasional trips to an urbanisation in Spain, quite a lot of Brits, and even a Swede, living there tell me they are because they don't like all the foreigners back home.
They don't get the irony either. |  | | |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:48 - Jun 7 with 2674 views | J2BLUE |
Do you have any theories as to why the right are making so many gains in Europe?
Sensible answers only please. Everyone can reply because they are racist/stupid etc but what are your thoughts on the underlying issues? |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:51 - Jun 7 with 2669 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:48 - Jun 7 by J2BLUE |
Do you have any theories as to why the right are making so many gains in Europe?
Sensible answers only please. Everyone can reply because they are racist/stupid etc but what are your thoughts on the underlying issues? |
Wealth disparity and a sense of being fleeced for the average man and woman. | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:56 - Jun 7 with 2635 views | noggin |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:51 - Jun 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Wealth disparity and a sense of being fleeced for the average man and woman. |
Wealth inequality across the world. You either accept it and try to reduce it, or you ignore it and complain about "illegal migration ". |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 15:04 - Jun 7 with 2600 views | J2BLUE |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:51 - Jun 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Wealth disparity and a sense of being fleeced for the average man and woman. |
Any non economic issues? | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 15:06 - Jun 7 with 2590 views | Herbivore |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:48 - Jun 7 by J2BLUE |
Do you have any theories as to why the right are making so many gains in Europe?
Sensible answers only please. Everyone can reply because they are racist/stupid etc but what are your thoughts on the underlying issues? |
It always happens in economically depressed times. People are struggling, they become angry and frustrated, they look for someone or something to blame, and far right populists are happy to feed them easy scapegoats. Swings to the far right generally protect rather than threaten the interests of the elite and so they are tolerated in a way that a swing to the far left wouldn't be, since that poses a direct threat to the status quo. In fact, one of the far right's tricks is to paint the far left as a bogeyman too even when they aren't a real threat, a fear of communism aided the rise of fascism in the 1920s and 30s. |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 16:50 - Jun 7 with 2510 views | Clapham_Junction |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:48 - Jun 7 by J2BLUE |
Do you have any theories as to why the right are making so many gains in Europe?
Sensible answers only please. Everyone can reply because they are racist/stupid etc but what are your thoughts on the underlying issues? |
I think a large part is because the left (or perhaps more accurately, those leading the left-of-centre parties) have stopped providing solutions to the major long-term/structural issues, as many of them have gone down the New Labour route, meaning less state intervention and protection for people. This has meant when times are tough, people now look elsewhere. |  | | |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 16:56 - Jun 7 with 2480 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 14:48 - Jun 7 by J2BLUE |
Do you have any theories as to why the right are making so many gains in Europe?
Sensible answers only please. Everyone can reply because they are racist/stupid etc but what are your thoughts on the underlying issues? |
Proportional representation
When the Conservatives are obliterated and Farage’s Nazis get zero seats you wouldn’t think the right wing are making headway in the UK
In France and the USA it’s low taxes, France/USA first - and immigrant bashing. |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 17:19 - Jun 7 with 2417 views | Clapham_Junction |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 16:56 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
Proportional representation
When the Conservatives are obliterated and Farage’s Nazis get zero seats you wouldn’t think the right wing are making headway in the UK
In France and the USA it’s low taxes, France/USA first - and immigrant bashing. |
PR clearly isn't the reason as France has one of the most successful far-right parties in Europe but doesn't use PR except for in European elections.
And as mentioned in an earlier thread, while UKIP/Reform have not had domestic electoral success, they did effectively force a government into one of the largest/most disastrous policy decisions in British history. | | | |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 17:29 - Jun 7 with 2378 views | WeWereZombies |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 17:19 - Jun 7 by Clapham_Junction |
PR clearly isn't the reason as France has one of the most successful far-right parties in Europe but doesn't use PR except for in European elections.
And as mentioned in an earlier thread, while UKIP/Reform have not had domestic electoral success, they did effectively force a government into one of the largest/most disastrous policy decisions in British history. |
And have been the tail wagging that dog of a Conservative Party ever since. | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 07:53 - Jun 8 with 2199 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/07/migration-truth-po
'Simply put, politicians have allowed foreigners to be blamed for the economic anxieties their policy failures have caused. During a period of little economic growth, as we emerge from the trauma of a pandemic to expensive food and energy prices, massive housing shortages and an influx of refugees from Ukraine and elsewhere, people who feel poor, ignored or left behind by their governments are easy prey for radical parties with a nationalist agenda that purports to prioritise them. These leaders promise to return the country to a mythical pre-immigration state when life for ordinary citizens was idyllic.
Populist and nationalist parties have grown stronger and bolder over the past decade. Far-right parties are in power, part of government or supporting governments in several EU countries, including Hungary, Finland, Italy, the Netherlands and Sweden. As extreme parties have grown more popular, liberal democratic parties on the centre-left and right, far from challenging hateful narratives around asylum and migration, have responded by shifting and appeasing: adopting the policies and language of the radical right, hoping to attract back their vote share. The message has been about strength against “security threats”, with appeals to self-interest and a much-narrowed version of national interest. In many cases, this has meant voters see little difference between the parties’ policies, but prefer the “more authentic” far-right parties. In 2021, 32% of voters chose radical parties, compared to 12% in the early 1990s.'
'There is a moral vacancy at the heart of political leadership. The fundamental role of leaders is to heal divisions, to help us care for each other and our fellow and future citizens. That requires compassion. But somehow, compassion has become unfashionable. It has been left to religious leaders and charities – the “worthy” sectors – rather than those with legitimate authority to govern.' | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 08:56 - Jun 8 with 2096 views | WeWereZombies |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 07:53 - Jun 8 by BanksterDebtSlave |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/07/migration-truth-po
'Simply put, politicians have allowed foreigners to be blamed for the economic anxieties their policy failures have caused. During a period of little economic growth, as we emerge from the trauma of a pandemic to expensive food and energy prices, massive housing shortages and an influx of refugees from Ukraine and elsewhere, people who feel poor, ignored or left behind by their governments are easy prey for radical parties with a nationalist agenda that purports to prioritise them. These leaders promise to return the country to a mythical pre-immigration state when life for ordinary citizens was idyllic.
Populist and nationalist parties have grown stronger and bolder over the past decade. Far-right parties are in power, part of government or supporting governments in several EU countries, including Hungary, Finland, Italy, the Netherlands and Sweden. As extreme parties have grown more popular, liberal democratic parties on the centre-left and right, far from challenging hateful narratives around asylum and migration, have responded by shifting and appeasing: adopting the policies and language of the radical right, hoping to attract back their vote share. The message has been about strength against “security threats”, with appeals to self-interest and a much-narrowed version of national interest. In many cases, this has meant voters see little difference between the parties’ policies, but prefer the “more authentic” far-right parties. In 2021, 32% of voters chose radical parties, compared to 12% in the early 1990s.'
'There is a moral vacancy at the heart of political leadership. The fundamental role of leaders is to heal divisions, to help us care for each other and our fellow and future citizens. That requires compassion. But somehow, compassion has become unfashionable. It has been left to religious leaders and charities – the “worthy” sectors – rather than those with legitimate authority to govern.' |
''There is a moral vacancy at the heart of political leadership. The fundamental role of leaders is to heal divisions, to help us care for each other and our fellow and future citizens.'
So that is a good reason to vote Labour and usher in Starmer with his cautious approach to putting things right and to gain traction over the next couple of years, once the economy and public services are stabilised then the more difficult work on bringing the four nations together into a fully meaningful period of social change, and tackling the issues that climate change lays down, starts in earnest so that two or three more sensible years gives a better chance of a second term with a more Socialist agenda. | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:37 - Jun 8 with 2010 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 08:56 - Jun 8 by WeWereZombies |
''There is a moral vacancy at the heart of political leadership. The fundamental role of leaders is to heal divisions, to help us care for each other and our fellow and future citizens.'
So that is a good reason to vote Labour and usher in Starmer with his cautious approach to putting things right and to gain traction over the next couple of years, once the economy and public services are stabilised then the more difficult work on bringing the four nations together into a fully meaningful period of social change, and tackling the issues that climate change lays down, starts in earnest so that two or three more sensible years gives a better chance of a second term with a more Socialist agenda. |
This Labour....
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/02/yvette-cooper-says-she-
'While Labour has pledged to scrap the government’s Rwanda scheme, Cooper declined to rule out sending asylum seekers to another country to have their claims processed.
“Keir has always said we would look at what works and there are different kinds of … offshore processing arrangements and things that have already been used at different times in the past,” she told the BBC.' | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:47 - Jun 8 with 1987 views | WeWereZombies |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 09:37 - Jun 8 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This Labour....
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/02/yvette-cooper-says-she-
'While Labour has pledged to scrap the government’s Rwanda scheme, Cooper declined to rule out sending asylum seekers to another country to have their claims processed.
“Keir has always said we would look at what works and there are different kinds of … offshore processing arrangements and things that have already been used at different times in the past,” she told the BBC.' |
True, although sending asylum seekers to somewhere like Switzerland or Canada might be better than having their claims processed here with the overworked and morally challenged Border Force. On the subject of Rwanda, a couple of recent stories:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c511kkwej7jo
'The small group arrived from Diego Garcia, an island in the Indian Ocean. They say their complex medical needs, in some cases as the result of past rape and torture, are not being met in Rwanda.
Each of them receives the equivalent of $50 (£39) a week for food and other essentials, but under the terms of their stay - agreed by the UK and Rwandan governments - they are not permitted to work.
All four say they have faced harassment and unwanted sexual advances on the street. They say they are, in effect, “self-imprisoned” - too scared to go out - while they wait for the UK to find somewhere permanent for them to live.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw007n5pn4wo
'“Rwanda is portrayed as a country where the economy has been growing. But on the ground, it's different. People do lack the basics of life, food, water, shelter."' | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 10:42 - Jun 8 with 1849 views | blueasfook |
That isn't the reason for the rise of far right parties at all. Many people are alarmed by uncontrolled immigration and these parties are the only ones promising to do something effective about it.
You should read (and link),some other news sources than the Guardian. It might lead to less blinkered views. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 10:43]
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 10:51 - Jun 8 with 1798 views | lowhouseblue |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 10:42 - Jun 8 by blueasfook |
That isn't the reason for the rise of far right parties at all. Many people are alarmed by uncontrolled immigration and these parties are the only ones promising to do something effective about it.
You should read (and link),some other news sources than the Guardian. It might lead to less blinkered views. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 10:43]
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also france is a bit of a basket case when it comes to the successful integration of immigrants. and change has happened very quickly. in isle de france 40% of the population are themselves immigrants or are 1st generation immigrants. there are huge social divides. being surprised that there is political kick back in those circumstances, or getting judgemental about people who object, is very naive. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 11:12]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:08 - Jun 8 with 1751 views | blueasfook |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 10:51 - Jun 8 by lowhouseblue |
also france is a bit of a basket case when it comes to the successful integration of immigrants. and change has happened very quickly. in isle de france 40% of the population are themselves immigrants or are 1st generation immigrants. there are huge social divides. being surprised that there is political kick back in those circumstances, or getting judgemental about people who object, is very naive. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 11:12]
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Indeed. Concerns about immigration is the prime mover for the rise of people like Le Pen. Simply dismissing a large proportion of people as racists for expressing concerns isn't the answer, and probably pushes them even further to the right. Right wing parties are winning elections across Europe and gaining power so considerable numbers of people must be getting behind them. | |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:12 - Jun 8 with 1716 views | Herbivore |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:08 - Jun 8 by blueasfook |
Indeed. Concerns about immigration is the prime mover for the rise of people like Le Pen. Simply dismissing a large proportion of people as racists for expressing concerns isn't the answer, and probably pushes them even further to the right. Right wing parties are winning elections across Europe and gaining power so considerable numbers of people must be getting behind them. |
Works every time.
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:22 - Jun 8 with 1666 views | giant_stow |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 10:51 - Jun 8 by lowhouseblue |
also france is a bit of a basket case when it comes to the successful integration of immigrants. and change has happened very quickly. in isle de france 40% of the population are themselves immigrants or are 1st generation immigrants. there are huge social divides. being surprised that there is political kick back in those circumstances, or getting judgemental about people who object, is very naive. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 11:12]
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Any idea why France is so bad at this? Or for that matter why others are better? |  |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:32 - Jun 8 with 1630 views | lowhouseblue |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:22 - Jun 8 by giant_stow |
Any idea why France is so bad at this? Or for that matter why others are better? |
i think france has had bigger numbers of recent immigrants than other european countries, they are not evenly dispersed within france and a high proportion come from the same countries of origin. the result is high numbers of recent immigrants who are geographically isolated and culturally separate. that separation is reinforced by religious differences. those communities are economically disadvantaged. the age profile tends to be younger. these are all things that make integration difficult. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 11:48]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| It's the future so get used to it. on 11:33 - Jun 8 with 1623 views | WeWereZombies |
| It's the future so get used to it. on 10:51 - Jun 8 by lowhouseblue |
also france is a bit of a basket case when it comes to the successful integration of immigrants. and change has happened very quickly. in isle de france 40% of the population are themselves immigrants or are 1st generation immigrants. there are huge social divides. being surprised that there is political kick back in those circumstances, or getting judgemental about people who object, is very naive. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 11:12]
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One of the saddest aspects of this whole debate is the smearing together of reasons for migration, as well as who has a legal right to move between nations and for how long.
Migration into the Colonial powers has in the past been accompanied by holding a passport, having a promise of a job or the necessity of completing a family life that started elsewhere, as well as some commonality of culture (Clark's shoes and the best kept front rooms for example in the case of British Caribbeans.) There can be the first generation 'legitimate' incomers and following generations whose material desires for betterment are not so well backed up with paperwork.
Another first and second generation development happened when more Poles arrived from the 1980s onwards as travel from Poland became easier and their skills much in demand. But the wartime settlers who had made a good life for themselves in Britain and avoided hardship under Russian occupation sometimes resented the change in attitude from 'thank you for your wartime efforts' to 'can you fix my taps, cash in hand ?'
Still, as you say, the British Empire has it's critics and often for good reason but our relative ease of assimilation compared with France derives both from the more extreme treatment of colonial subjects in history and the bureaucratic settlement into the banlieus of many migrants. The Netherlands appeared to be coping best of all quarter of a century ago but has since stumbled very badly, there is a book called 'Immigrant Nations' by Paul Scheffer of the University of Amsterdam that outlined this growing problem back in 2011.
And now the increasing flow of refugees from wars is exacerbating the existing issues so that even when a country like Poland hosts Ukrainian people, and having seen many of the existing Polish population benefit from temporary or permanent migration elsewhere, the resentment can be very palpable. | |
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