| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? 09:17 - Sep 5 with 4357 views | NthQldITFC |
I haven't read the Grenfell report (and to be brutal it's just another example to me) but when the bullet points suggest corporate manslaughter, gross negligence manslaughter and misconduct in public office it just makes me feel so tired and cynical and expectant of another utterly ineffective conclusion.
There is no meaningful accountability for governmental or corporate corruption in this country.
It leaves decent, honest, responsible people feeling cynical and drives many of us to give up and just echo lines like 'You can't do anything, that's just how the system works'. Of course, many of us are bought into it and willingly or guiltily accept the sh!t on our hands in exchange for the perception of personal profit.
But the stakes are getting higher; our technological advancements (physical and computational) give us more and more powerful tools which are inevitably used within the expansionist system to chase short term profit at the expense of people, the environment and everybody's future. We are doing more damage, more quickly to a more vulnerable society and a perilously damaged planet - and there is effectively NO PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY!
Corporate fines (whatever the size) are meaningless in terms of driving change. Culpable individuals MUST pay severe penalties (imprisonment and personal wealth removal) as both meaningful deterrent and redress to victims. This has to start now, not be put off again because "it can't be done, it sets too much of a precedent."
It strikes me that the framework of the law is far too geared up to accepting mitigation and protecting the vehicles of the great god of profit. I think we all know where that is headed. Can we actually think outside of the protective constraints of HowThingsAreDone and radically and positively adapt the framework of our society in order to survive and indeed to thrive? Are we brave enough to try to evolve beyond 17th Century ideals and excuses for more of the same? |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:36 - Sep 5 with 3455 views | homer_123 |
In short fella, no.
As a species, we are awful at learning from mistakes and even worse at understanding what impact are actions (inactions) will ultimately have.
Add to this, that we are selfish creatures, now living in a world where the 'me, me, me' and 'now, now now' culture is the norm.
It is not a good mix and doesn't bode well. |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:51 - Sep 5 with 3413 views | Help |
Unfortunately don't care is an attitude that is high on some people's priorities.
Also if I can take advantage of others to my own benefit.
Along with so long as I don't get caught, and if I do the punishment is worth the crime.
Society has for some time lost its morals, and continues to get worse.
Humans stopped evolving centuries ago, and continue to go backwards towards dystopia at an alarming rate.
Thankfully I will be long gone.
That's my cheerful input. |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 10:16 - Sep 5 with 3367 views | NthQldITFC |
I appreciate both answers above, and largely agree with the reasoning behind the conclusions, but...
...meaningful change is NOT prohibited by anything tangible - not by the laws of physics or a lack of scientific understanding or technological ability. It is only prohibited at the moment by an unwillingness to change on a self-centred individual level and consequently on a societal level, and on a species level.
I'd think most of us are in agreement that radical change is needed but it's still individuals who are making the excuses, or at least triggering the decisions which empower the failing system. The fatalistic response is entirely understandable and logical, but in some ways it's such a small step which is required to start changing course. I choose to be hopeful in the face of it. | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 10:31 - Sep 5 with 3341 views | RIPbobby |
I can tell you what will happen.
PM has said he will study the report. Which really means they will take bloody years to come to any conclusion and wait for as many of them to die? Just like the blood poisoning, post office and other disasters. |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 11:17 - Sep 5 with 3269 views | MattinLondon |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 10:31 - Sep 5 by RIPbobby |
I can tell you what will happen.
PM has said he will study the report. Which really means they will take bloody years to come to any conclusion and wait for as many of them to die? Just like the blood poisoning, post office and other disasters. |
The rioters who brought shame to the country are dealt with very quickly. Good.
Landlords who don’t provide adequate housing, big business who pollute our waters, politicians who hand out contracts to their mates, business people who provide inadequate equipment, steal from pension pots - keep your honours, keep your seat, and have much much more time to comply with legislation.
If you have money or influence then do what you want. If you haven’t, go to prison.
It’s always been the same but compared to previous ages today’s society is better equipped to provide a degree of equality and dignity. But what’s in it for the powerful? Not a lot. |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:23 - Sep 5 with 3108 views | bluelagos |
What social class were the 72 innocents killed at Grenfell?
Once you know that I think you will have your answer. [Post edited 5 Sep 2024 20:10]
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:59 - Sep 5 with 3062 views | bluelagos |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:23 - Sep 5 by bluelagos |
What social class were the 72 innocents killed at Grenfell?
Once you know that I think you will have your answer. [Post edited 5 Sep 2024 20:10]
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 21:46 - Sep 5 with 2917 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:59 - Sep 5 by bluelagos |
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Oof, damning (assuming that clip is a true reflection of what happened, I.e. people didn’t return). Not surprising though - loads of important speeches take place in that place in front of mostly empty benches. |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 22:03 - Sep 5 with 2872 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Who fookin cares I got a ticket for Southampton.
Watch out elite, I'm getting the hang of this.
Edit...oh and stop crying. [Post edited 5 Sep 2024 22:05]
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 22:30 - Sep 5 with 2795 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:23 - Sep 5 by bluelagos |
What social class were the 72 innocents killed at Grenfell?
Once you know that I think you will have your answer. [Post edited 5 Sep 2024 20:10]
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this particular case has little to do with class. it's a combination of corporate greed and dishonesty along with extreme regulatory failure. companies pushed materials knowing that they were a fire risk and the system of building control utterly failed to stop them. but most of the buildings with the cladding are not social housing - they are private leaseholders. across the country the use of these materials is not correlated with the social class of the occupants. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 22:36 - Sep 5 with 2771 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:36 - Sep 5 by homer_123 |
In short fella, no.
As a species, we are awful at learning from mistakes and even worse at understanding what impact are actions (inactions) will ultimately have.
Add to this, that we are selfish creatures, now living in a world where the 'me, me, me' and 'now, now now' culture is the norm.
It is not a good mix and doesn't bode well. |
You know what? I think its less horrible and cynical than that.
I think that the size of organisational structures, and the attention to detail needed, combined with instinctive inclination to group- think and confirmation bias, is such that we are operating at levels and quantities that are beyond anything humans have evolved to deal with.
It is just really really difficult, with hundreds or thousands of indvidual humans in a system, to keep on top of everything all the time. |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 07:04 - Sep 6 with 2569 views | bluelagos |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 22:30 - Sep 5 by lowhouseblue |
this particular case has little to do with class. it's a combination of corporate greed and dishonesty along with extreme regulatory failure. companies pushed materials knowing that they were a fire risk and the system of building control utterly failed to stop them. but most of the buildings with the cladding are not social housing - they are private leaseholders. across the country the use of these materials is not correlated with the social class of the occupants. |
I was referring to the failure to hold to account those whose actions (or lack of) led to the fire/deaths. Of course as you say greed and disregard for safety was central ref the cladding manufacturers.
I would add that the landlord (Kingston borough) ignoring the tenants concerns was very much down to their social class. Their concerns were largely dismissed out of hand.
Edit: As pointed out below - was Kensington not Kingston. [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 8:52]
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 07:33 - Sep 6 with 2516 views | NthQldITFC |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 22:36 - Sep 5 by redrickstuhaart |
You know what? I think its less horrible and cynical than that.
I think that the size of organisational structures, and the attention to detail needed, combined with instinctive inclination to group- think and confirmation bias, is such that we are operating at levels and quantities that are beyond anything humans have evolved to deal with.
It is just really really difficult, with hundreds or thousands of indvidual humans in a system, to keep on top of everything all the time. |
That's a really interesting angle that had never occurred to me. I can see that complexity and what you might call a sort of system duty driven by a financial efficiency obsession could tend to keep us focussed on minutiae rather than the big picture, but I think that would only be the case during (parts of) the working day.
I can't imagine that most people don't take a mental step back on at least a daily basis and see the bigger picture - to pretend otherwise might just be an excuse for inaction. It's exactly the same as climate change - the news again today is extremely concerning (1.54°C), anyone with half a brain knows that - but we pretend not to see it to excuse our own inaction, rather actually not being able to see it. | |
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| No. N/t on 07:55 - Sep 6 with 2478 views | Buhrer |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 08:13 - Sep 6 with 2430 views | CoachRob |
Systemic failures like Grenfell will scale throughout this century and it is to be determined just how resilient society will be.
The Principle of Least Action if applied to human systems might be a speculative counter to your point about the laws of physics, but in terms of changing our system, of course there are no constraints outside of energy and matter. I think humanities and social sciences has produced so much twaddle on the mechanics of society being self-serving and individualistic that people have become indoctrinated to think that way. We know about symbiosis and our own bodies have evolved from cooperation and collaboration. The idea that all possible human systems elicit the same behaviours is frankly daft. |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 08:38 - Sep 6 with 2387 views | soupytwist |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 07:04 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
I was referring to the failure to hold to account those whose actions (or lack of) led to the fire/deaths. Of course as you say greed and disregard for safety was central ref the cladding manufacturers.
I would add that the landlord (Kingston borough) ignoring the tenants concerns was very much down to their social class. Their concerns were largely dismissed out of hand.
Edit: As pointed out below - was Kensington not Kingston. [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 8:52]
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The Grenfell landlord was the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, not Kingston. There's your class element! |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 08:51 - Sep 6 with 2344 views | bluelagos |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 08:38 - Sep 6 by soupytwist |
The Grenfell landlord was the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, not Kingston. There's your class element! |
Stand corrected, thx. | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:04 - Sep 6 with 2302 views | Zapers |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 22:03 - Sep 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Who fookin cares I got a ticket for Southampton.
Watch out elite, I'm getting the hang of this.
Edit...oh and stop crying. [Post edited 5 Sep 2024 22:05]
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I'm pretty sure that you have always considered yourself to be the elite, the elite fool yes. | | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:08 - Sep 6 with 2286 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 07:04 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
I was referring to the failure to hold to account those whose actions (or lack of) led to the fire/deaths. Of course as you say greed and disregard for safety was central ref the cladding manufacturers.
I would add that the landlord (Kingston borough) ignoring the tenants concerns was very much down to their social class. Their concerns were largely dismissed out of hand.
Edit: As pointed out below - was Kensington not Kingston. [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 8:52]
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in large part the tenants were ignored because the materials and design had been signed off by building control, the architects, the fire safety consultants, the manufacturer, the installers, and every adviser and expert involved in the project. in addition, the system and materials were claimed to have passed tests, were marketed as safe and had been used on 5,000 odd other buildings to date. ignoring counter voices who had none of that professional standing had much more to do with that tragically mistaken and self-reinforcing professional group think (plus incompetence and the dishonesty of the manufacturers) than class. private leaseholders would also have been powerless against mistaken professional consensus. essentially "the experts" knew better. it's not justified to shoe horn this into a story about class (as political activists tried to do at the time of the disaster). [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 9:09]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:14 - Sep 6 with 2253 views | Leaky |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 11:17 - Sep 5 by MattinLondon |
The rioters who brought shame to the country are dealt with very quickly. Good.
Landlords who don’t provide adequate housing, big business who pollute our waters, politicians who hand out contracts to their mates, business people who provide inadequate equipment, steal from pension pots - keep your honours, keep your seat, and have much much more time to comply with legislation.
If you have money or influence then do what you want. If you haven’t, go to prison.
It’s always been the same but compared to previous ages today’s society is better equipped to provide a degree of equality and dignity. But what’s in it for the powerful? Not a lot. |
Doe's that include Jas Athwal labour MP who rents out 15 flats in Redbridge. |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:15 - Sep 6 with 2247 views | nodge_blue |
You make a lot of decent points.
The water companies have been a good example of corporate lies and greed. Polluting the rivers and seas, lying about it (the yearly fliers included with the increased bill said they were cleaning this all up) and at the same time borrowing money to pay dividends and huge salaries and bonuses to the people that run them. And now Thames water is on the verge of declaring itself bankrupt.
A complete failure of privatisation and lack of governance over these companies.
There has to be something embedded into the culture and "mission statements" of every company and organisation that looks to do the right things. |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:52 - Sep 6 with 2155 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 07:33 - Sep 6 by NthQldITFC |
That's a really interesting angle that had never occurred to me. I can see that complexity and what you might call a sort of system duty driven by a financial efficiency obsession could tend to keep us focussed on minutiae rather than the big picture, but I think that would only be the case during (parts of) the working day.
I can't imagine that most people don't take a mental step back on at least a daily basis and see the bigger picture - to pretend otherwise might just be an excuse for inaction. It's exactly the same as climate change - the news again today is extremely concerning (1.54°C), anyone with half a brain knows that - but we pretend not to see it to excuse our own inaction, rather actually not being able to see it. |
It seems to me that even the best organisations i worked for have all manner of problems. Its a wack a mole thing. Impossible to monitor everything. Put systems in place, over time they change and slide, people assume its ok because others are doing the same, etc etc. | | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 10:18 - Sep 6 with 2106 views | soupytwist |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 08:51 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
Stand corrected, thx. |
Just didn't want Phil to get in trouble with some eagle eyed local authority lawyers! | | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 13:51 - Sep 6 with 1998 views | bluelagos |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:08 - Sep 6 by lowhouseblue |
in large part the tenants were ignored because the materials and design had been signed off by building control, the architects, the fire safety consultants, the manufacturer, the installers, and every adviser and expert involved in the project. in addition, the system and materials were claimed to have passed tests, were marketed as safe and had been used on 5,000 odd other buildings to date. ignoring counter voices who had none of that professional standing had much more to do with that tragically mistaken and self-reinforcing professional group think (plus incompetence and the dishonesty of the manufacturers) than class. private leaseholders would also have been powerless against mistaken professional consensus. essentially "the experts" knew better. it's not justified to shoe horn this into a story about class (as political activists tried to do at the time of the disaster). [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 9:09]
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"It's not justified to shoe horn this into a story about class (as political activists tried to do at the time of the disaster)"
Labeling those who survived Grenfell, who lost relatives and who have publicly observed class (and race) as one of the reasons their concerns were ignored as "political activists" is some take.
They were ignored then and now you seek to dismiss their arguments by labeling them (as activists) rather than actually listening to them.
I appreciate their argument may be uncomfortable to hear - but that in itself doesn't invalidate their experiences, opinions & argumemts.
And I for one don't think for a minute that middle class tenants speaking out about safety concerns would have been brushed off as they were. You can have different opinion but I'll go with the actual people with first hand experience and how they say they and their concerns were treated. | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:05 - Sep 6 with 1942 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 13:51 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
"It's not justified to shoe horn this into a story about class (as political activists tried to do at the time of the disaster)"
Labeling those who survived Grenfell, who lost relatives and who have publicly observed class (and race) as one of the reasons their concerns were ignored as "political activists" is some take.
They were ignored then and now you seek to dismiss their arguments by labeling them (as activists) rather than actually listening to them.
I appreciate their argument may be uncomfortable to hear - but that in itself doesn't invalidate their experiences, opinions & argumemts.
And I for one don't think for a minute that middle class tenants speaking out about safety concerns would have been brushed off as they were. You can have different opinion but I'll go with the actual people with first hand experience and how they say they and their concerns were treated. |
when i said "political activists" i meant political activists. i was not referring to those who lost relatives who will have their own very specific and very subjective take on these issues.
the point is that none of what you are pushing is supported by the findings of the enquiry. to quote the guardian today:
"The final report into the fire did address concerns about racism, saying: “Our response to those who wanted us to investigate racial and social discrimination has always been that we would look out for it and that if we came across any evidence that racial or social prejudice might have affected any of the decisions that led, directly or indirectly, to the disaster, we would examine it thoroughly and publish our findings, as befits an inquiry seeking to uncover the truth.” However, it said the inquiry found “no evidence that any of the decisions that resulted in the creation of a dangerous building or the calamitous spread of fire were affected by racial or social prejudice”.
so a 6 year enquiry has not found anything to back up your narrative. i appreciate that their findings may therefore be uncomfortable for you. [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 15:07]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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