| Lucy Letby 22:53 - Oct 1 with 6468 views | Zx1988 |
These murmurings about the evidence given at her trial just keep coming, and from senior professionals who should know their onions as well:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c89l05e97vqo
The more and more I read/hear about all of this, the less sound the conviction appears to me, and the weaker the grounds for the continued refusal of an appeal.
Then you have attitudes like this from the judiciary:
A public inquiry is under way to establish how Letby was able to murder and injure babies. At its opening Lady Justice Thirlwall was scathing about those who have questioned the verdicts, saying this was causing “enormous additional distress to the parents”.
Given that a lot of the questioning is coming from decent sources, should the judiciary be trying quite so hard to quash dissent here? |  |
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| Lucy Letby on 23:05 - Oct 1 with 6371 views | factual_blue |
There's a lot about this in most editions of Private Eye, from the excellent Dr Phil Hammond.
The so-called statistical evidence used in court sound shot to pieces. |  |
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| Lucy Letby on 00:55 - Oct 2 with 6159 views | ronnyd |
I see that one of the reporters in that link are aptly named. | | | |
| Lucy Letby on 01:19 - Oct 2 with 6126 views | Ryorry |
There was a File on 4 docu on it on R4 y'day eve, 8pm. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0023vnp
EDIT: sorry, didn’t realise your link was to the same show.
Personally I thought the prog. was too 'both-sided' & too short to do her case justice - the problems with the hospital's own shortcomings (very short-staffed & ill-equipped at the time for starters) were barely mentioned.
There was an excellent TV docu on her case a few months ago which was much better. Several very senior & experienced health professionals in it threw doubt on the soundness of the case and Letby's conviction.
Agree that the conviction, entirely based on circumstantial evidence a lot of which is flawed, doesn't seem safe at all. There were similar multiple infant deaths at at least one other UK hospital around that time which was put down to infections from a faulty sanitation system - backwashing from handwash-basins which became contaminated with lavatory waste water, iirc. A similar problem was indeed reported & recorded on multiple occasions by plumber/s on Letby's ward in her hospital at that time - once a week was mentioned (again not mentioned in the File on 4 prog). [Post edited 2 Oct 2024 10:35]
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| Lucy Letby on 07:09 - Oct 2 with 5877 views | Zx1988 |
I may be very wrong, but it also feels to me that the inquiry has happened rather quickly. Don't these normally take a while to set up, whilst this one has commenced almost before the ink has dried on the verdict.
Putting my tin foil hat on for a second, it's almost as if those pulling the strings know the conviction to be unsafe (and, perhaps, that there is a different cause that, if known, would make the wrong people look bad), hence the rush to an inquiry and the unusually strong stance towards dissent. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 08:00 - Oct 2 with 5674 views | Steve_M |
| Lucy Letby on 07:09 - Oct 2 by Zx1988 |
I may be very wrong, but it also feels to me that the inquiry has happened rather quickly. Don't these normally take a while to set up, whilst this one has commenced almost before the ink has dried on the verdict.
Putting my tin foil hat on for a second, it's almost as if those pulling the strings know the conviction to be unsafe (and, perhaps, that there is a different cause that, if known, would make the wrong people look bad), hence the rush to an inquiry and the unusually strong stance towards dissent. |
The inquiry is less about the verdict than the institutional failings at Countess of Chester Hospital, regardless of Letby's guilt there are many. |  |
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| Lucy Letby on 09:09 - Oct 2 with 5537 views | WeWereZombies |
| Lucy Letby on 08:00 - Oct 2 by Steve_M |
The inquiry is less about the verdict than the institutional failings at Countess of Chester Hospital, regardless of Letby's guilt there are many. |
It is still important that if an individual has been wrongly convicted, or correctly found guilty but without the full range of evidence that explains the circumstances (and therefore affects the sentencing) that sufficient due process is applied to any future appeal. |  |
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| Lucy Letby on 09:12 - Oct 2 with 5489 views | Zx1988 |
| Lucy Letby on 09:09 - Oct 2 by WeWereZombies |
It is still important that if an individual has been wrongly convicted, or correctly found guilty but without the full range of evidence that explains the circumstances (and therefore affects the sentencing) that sufficient due process is applied to any future appeal. |
That's my concern, and what I was (perhaps clumsily) getting at with my comments about the inquiry.
Holding the inquiry now, despite the seemingly legitimate concerns from senior professionals, presents Letby's guilt as a matter of complete and utter fact, and will therefore influence the tack of the inquiry. The focus, rightly or wrongly, will be on "how did institutional failings allow Letby to kill?" rather than, potentially, "how did institutional failings lead to the deaths of these babies?". | |
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| Lucy Letby on 10:47 - Oct 2 with 5272 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby on 09:12 - Oct 2 by Zx1988 |
That's my concern, and what I was (perhaps clumsily) getting at with my comments about the inquiry.
Holding the inquiry now, despite the seemingly legitimate concerns from senior professionals, presents Letby's guilt as a matter of complete and utter fact, and will therefore influence the tack of the inquiry. The focus, rightly or wrongly, will be on "how did institutional failings allow Letby to kill?" rather than, potentially, "how did institutional failings lead to the deaths of these babies?". |
What’s completely bizarre is that every stout defender of her convictions completely ignores the recorded multiple sanitation failures of a waste pipe carrying faecal matter backwashing into a handwashing basin on that ward. A parallel case of that at another UK hospital around that time was held responsible for the deaths of many babies due to infection, having shown symptoms similar to those on Letby’s ward. I think that’s one reason so many of her fellow nurses are supporting her and believe her conviction is unsafe.
Also, there were several other deaths of babies on Letby’s ward when she was NOT on duty. Those duty rosters weren’t looked at, nor were the duty rosters of doctors and other staff at the times she was on and held responsible. [Post edited 2 Oct 2024 11:15]
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| Lucy Letby on 20:53 - Oct 6 with 4673 views | Ryorry |
Docu with “new evidence” (their words) about to start on Channel 5 (9pm). | |
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| Lucy Letby on 08:27 - Oct 7 with 4160 views | blueasfook |
I remember many years ago the case of Simon Hall, who was convicted of murdering an old lady in Capel St Mary. Many were convinced he was innocent. There was even a BBC Rough Justice program devoted to his cause, and people campaigned vigorously to try to get an appeal heard. Until one day he admitted he had done it. |  |
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| Lucy Letby on 08:34 - Oct 7 with 4119 views | DJR |
| Lucy Letby on 20:53 - Oct 6 by Ryorry |
Docu with “new evidence” (their words) about to start on Channel 5 (9pm). |
I can't think of another case where so many different news organisations have cast doubt on a conviction so soon after the verdict. Indeed, from recollection, both the Guardian and Telegraph (not normal bedfellows) published articles just as soon as reporting restrictions have been removed. [Post edited 7 Oct 2024 8:34]
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| Lucy Letby on 08:43 - Oct 7 with 4060 views | Zx1988 |
| Lucy Letby on 08:34 - Oct 7 by DJR |
I can't think of another case where so many different news organisations have cast doubt on a conviction so soon after the verdict. Indeed, from recollection, both the Guardian and Telegraph (not normal bedfellows) published articles just as soon as reporting restrictions have been removed. [Post edited 7 Oct 2024 8:34]
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That's what concerns me - the number and wide variety of sources who are all raising concerns with the way in which the verdict was reached. It makes the push-back from the establishment and judiciary (stop it, you're upsetting the families) all the more disappointing.
It brings to mind what I used to think was an old piece of Talmudic wisdom but have just realised is a line from a film(!):
“The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle.” | |
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| Lucy Letby on 09:07 - Oct 7 with 3993 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby on 08:27 - Oct 7 by blueasfook |
I remember many years ago the case of Simon Hall, who was convicted of murdering an old lady in Capel St Mary. Many were convinced he was innocent. There was even a BBC Rough Justice program devoted to his cause, and people campaigned vigorously to try to get an appeal heard. Until one day he admitted he had done it. |
In Letby's case however, even the CPS have now admitted that the 'door-swipe' stats re presence of personnel are worthless - and it was those stats that persuaded the police to investigate in the first place, because until then there hadn't been any doubt about the infants' deaths being from natural causes - not one of them was deemed by the post-mortem path lab reports to have been suspicious.
The C of Chester Hospital have now admitted that there was an outbreak of a virus potentially fatal to newborns at the time, the source being foul water from sewage back-flowing into handwash basins on the ward (which was known at the time of the trial, but not brought up in evidence then). 3 babies at a Belfast hospital died in similar circumstances from the same virus around the same time & were deemed to be natural deaths.
Nurses at Letby's hospital were warned not to speak out in support of her. A very senior neo-natal nurse on her unit was made to take enforced redundancy, along with 7 others, as a cost-cutting measure, so Letby became a 'senior' nurse by default after only 3 years' experience. This very senior, now retired, nurse also related on last night's docu how she had considered the unit thoroughly unsafe when she worked there - amongst other things, they'd also had a horde of small crawling black insects infesting the ward.
No statistical analysis was ever done of doctors' presence in the unit at the time of the infants' deaths. Nor was such statistical analysis ever done of nurses on duty at the times *other* babies died on that unit - because there were more, which happened when Letby was *not* on duty,
The so-called "confessions" Letby wrote were *actually what she was told to do by therapist/s who was/were part of the counselling provision she was given as a result of being told she was under suspicion* - part of working through her feelings at being removed, on the suspicions of one or two doctors re the door-swipe duty roster stats (see above), from front-line nursing to a desk job. Those supposed "confession" notes played a large part in convicting her.
As others have said, there are now a huge number of extremely senior, vastly experienced, medical people speaking out about how unsafe they feel Letby's convictions are. Meanwhile, all those involved in prosecuting her could come up with is that they stood by their original views. Scandalous. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 10:21 - Oct 7 with 3866 views | blueasfook |
| Lucy Letby on 09:07 - Oct 7 by Ryorry |
In Letby's case however, even the CPS have now admitted that the 'door-swipe' stats re presence of personnel are worthless - and it was those stats that persuaded the police to investigate in the first place, because until then there hadn't been any doubt about the infants' deaths being from natural causes - not one of them was deemed by the post-mortem path lab reports to have been suspicious.
The C of Chester Hospital have now admitted that there was an outbreak of a virus potentially fatal to newborns at the time, the source being foul water from sewage back-flowing into handwash basins on the ward (which was known at the time of the trial, but not brought up in evidence then). 3 babies at a Belfast hospital died in similar circumstances from the same virus around the same time & were deemed to be natural deaths.
Nurses at Letby's hospital were warned not to speak out in support of her. A very senior neo-natal nurse on her unit was made to take enforced redundancy, along with 7 others, as a cost-cutting measure, so Letby became a 'senior' nurse by default after only 3 years' experience. This very senior, now retired, nurse also related on last night's docu how she had considered the unit thoroughly unsafe when she worked there - amongst other things, they'd also had a horde of small crawling black insects infesting the ward.
No statistical analysis was ever done of doctors' presence in the unit at the time of the infants' deaths. Nor was such statistical analysis ever done of nurses on duty at the times *other* babies died on that unit - because there were more, which happened when Letby was *not* on duty,
The so-called "confessions" Letby wrote were *actually what she was told to do by therapist/s who was/were part of the counselling provision she was given as a result of being told she was under suspicion* - part of working through her feelings at being removed, on the suspicions of one or two doctors re the door-swipe duty roster stats (see above), from front-line nursing to a desk job. Those supposed "confession" notes played a large part in convicting her.
As others have said, there are now a huge number of extremely senior, vastly experienced, medical people speaking out about how unsafe they feel Letby's convictions are. Meanwhile, all those involved in prosecuting her could come up with is that they stood by their original views. Scandalous. |
Sorry but there was a four year police investigation in this case, followed by a year long trial. There was thousands of pieces of evidence used in the trial. Dont forget a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders. So the general public (or the so-called "specialists" chipping in) dont have the full picture. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 10:31 - Oct 7 with 3815 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby on 10:21 - Oct 7 by blueasfook |
Sorry but there was a four year police investigation in this case, followed by a year long trial. There was thousands of pieces of evidence used in the trial. Dont forget a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders. So the general public (or the so-called "specialists" chipping in) dont have the full picture. |
"a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders."
Even more cause for concern then. 'Let justice be done and be seen to be done' remains a good maxim.
No-one's saying Letby is definitely innocent, they're saying that the case was built on sand, a great deal of which has demonstrably shifted since the trial, which renders the convictions unsafe. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 19:19 - Oct 7 with 3424 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby on 10:31 - Oct 7 by Ryorry |
"a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders."
Even more cause for concern then. 'Let justice be done and be seen to be done' remains a good maxim.
No-one's saying Letby is definitely innocent, they're saying that the case was built on sand, a great deal of which has demonstrably shifted since the trial, which renders the convictions unsafe. |
Which bit of my post did you disagree with Blueas? The middle para's certainly worth further discussion I think. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 20:41 - Oct 7 with 3322 views | Zx1988 |
| Lucy Letby on 10:21 - Oct 7 by blueasfook |
Sorry but there was a four year police investigation in this case, followed by a year long trial. There was thousands of pieces of evidence used in the trial. Dont forget a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders. So the general public (or the so-called "specialists" chipping in) dont have the full picture. |
It's a good job we didn't (eventually) follow that rationale with the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, Andrew Malkinson, Barry George, or all those Sub-Postmasters, eh? | |
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| Lucy Letby on 20:46 - Oct 7 with 3309 views | PhilTWTD |
| Lucy Letby on 10:21 - Oct 7 by blueasfook |
Sorry but there was a four year police investigation in this case, followed by a year long trial. There was thousands of pieces of evidence used in the trial. Dont forget a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders. So the general public (or the so-called "specialists" chipping in) dont have the full picture. |
It's the evidence which is being called into question. |  | | |
| Lucy Letby on 21:32 - Oct 7 with 3146 views | TractorWood |
| Lucy Letby on 10:21 - Oct 7 by blueasfook |
Sorry but there was a four year police investigation in this case, followed by a year long trial. There was thousands of pieces of evidence used in the trial. Dont forget a lot of the evidence was heard in confidence and not released to the public on the judge's orders. So the general public (or the so-called "specialists" chipping in) dont have the full picture. |
Didn't the conviction lean heavily on her 'confessions'. Which it turns out were actually written after intense psychotherapy sessions in which she was told to write down all of her feelings free from persecution.
Her defence seemed to miss this rather glaring issue.
As others have said, there appears to be tremendously large holes everywhere in this conviction. Justice needs to overwhelmingly win the day. Not a shaky conviction that feels like the right answer. |  |
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| Lucy Letby on 23:12 - Oct 7 with 3021 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Lucy Letby on 21:32 - Oct 7 by TractorWood |
Didn't the conviction lean heavily on her 'confessions'. Which it turns out were actually written after intense psychotherapy sessions in which she was told to write down all of her feelings free from persecution.
Her defence seemed to miss this rather glaring issue.
As others have said, there appears to be tremendously large holes everywhere in this conviction. Justice needs to overwhelmingly win the day. Not a shaky conviction that feels like the right answer. |
Seems that Lucy was just unfortunate to work with sloppy staff.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/inquiry-told-huge-increase-b |  | | |
| Lucy Letby on 01:32 - Oct 8 with 2922 views | Ryorry |
"Mr Baker, who is representing some of the Countess of Chester victims' families at the inquiry, said the dislodgement of the endotracheal tubes, used to aid breathing, was "uncommon". He said: "It generally occurs in less than 1% of shifts. One may wonder why there was a sudden rise in dislodgement incidents ((to allegedly 40%)) when Letby completed two work placements at Liverpool Women's Hospital in 2012 and 2015."
Were those stats compiled in a similar way to how they were at the CoC Hospital, ie a method which is now completely discredited even by the CPS themselves?
The report then goes on to add comments from Peter Skelton KC, representing 7 other of the families, which appear to counter Mr. Baker's views. Skelton told the inquiry -
"Basic failings by the Countess of Chester had fatal consequences for babies (There were) five basic failures which occurred right from the start and which continued for the next two years.
The first failure was to conduct swift, careful and methodical investigations into why each of the deaths occurred and whether there were connections between the deaths." He added: “That was a major and catastrophic failure.”
Btw, this has mostly been a very respectful thread, can we keep it that way please. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 14:21 - Oct 8 with 2571 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Lucy Letby on 01:32 - Oct 8 by Ryorry |
"Mr Baker, who is representing some of the Countess of Chester victims' families at the inquiry, said the dislodgement of the endotracheal tubes, used to aid breathing, was "uncommon". He said: "It generally occurs in less than 1% of shifts. One may wonder why there was a sudden rise in dislodgement incidents ((to allegedly 40%)) when Letby completed two work placements at Liverpool Women's Hospital in 2012 and 2015."
Were those stats compiled in a similar way to how they were at the CoC Hospital, ie a method which is now completely discredited even by the CPS themselves?
The report then goes on to add comments from Peter Skelton KC, representing 7 other of the families, which appear to counter Mr. Baker's views. Skelton told the inquiry -
"Basic failings by the Countess of Chester had fatal consequences for babies (There were) five basic failures which occurred right from the start and which continued for the next two years.
The first failure was to conduct swift, careful and methodical investigations into why each of the deaths occurred and whether there were connections between the deaths." He added: “That was a major and catastrophic failure.”
Btw, this has mostly been a very respectful thread, can we keep it that way please. |
Just pointing out that there was concerns regarding dislodged tubes in other places she worked. While there seemed to be a general poor standard in nursing practice and general hygiene standards in Countess of Chester hospital it does not prove a miscarriage of justice. If your point is that there has not been a comprehensive investigation into the events and procedures surrounding the deaths and injuries to the infants thats a different matter, which i would support. I note your self appointed guardianship of respectfulness on this thread and point out that my comments have been quite respectful. | | | |
| Lucy Letby on 15:02 - Oct 8 with 2508 views | Ryorry |
| Lucy Letby on 14:21 - Oct 8 by Eireannach_gorm |
Just pointing out that there was concerns regarding dislodged tubes in other places she worked. While there seemed to be a general poor standard in nursing practice and general hygiene standards in Countess of Chester hospital it does not prove a miscarriage of justice. If your point is that there has not been a comprehensive investigation into the events and procedures surrounding the deaths and injuries to the infants thats a different matter, which i would support. I note your self appointed guardianship of respectfulness on this thread and point out that my comments have been quite respectful. |
I am not the “self appointed guardianship of respectfulness on this thread.” Your comment “Seems that Lucy was just unfortunate to work with sloppy staff” was unnecessarily sarcastic bearing in mind the seriousness of the subject, it was reasonable to ask for more respect esp considering the thread could come up in a search by the families. | |
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| Lucy Letby on 18:25 - Oct 8 with 2279 views | blueasfook |
| Lucy Letby on 15:02 - Oct 8 by Ryorry |
I am not the “self appointed guardianship of respectfulness on this thread.” Your comment “Seems that Lucy was just unfortunate to work with sloppy staff” was unnecessarily sarcastic bearing in mind the seriousness of the subject, it was reasonable to ask for more respect esp considering the thread could come up in a search by the families. |
What happened to my "judge judy and executioner" post? It's a quote from Hot Fuzz!! | |
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| Lucy Letby on 18:58 - Oct 8 with 2228 views | Trequartista |
| Lucy Letby on 18:25 - Oct 8 by blueasfook |
What happened to my "judge judy and executioner" post? It's a quote from Hot Fuzz!! |
It was removed for the greater good (greater good) of the board. |  |
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