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Give in to this we may as well pack our bags and move out of Britain. We cannot be held accountable for everything that happened in the past otherwise we leave ourselves open to everyone claiming something for what happened to their forbears many years past. As was pointed out on the radio last night Britain were at the forefront of abolishing slavery and whilst it was abhorrent Britain wasn't solely responsible for it happening.
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Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 22:22 - Oct 28 with 1247 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:08 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue
and you clearly need to read some economic history to understand that economic development comes through savings derived from many varied sources and that focusing on one source is silly. it makes just as much sense to argue that profits from agriculture drove the industrial revolution. the industrial revolution transformed britain - the industrial revolution was not caused by slavery.
Currently studying for a Masters in Economic History at Cambridge. Much of my undergraduate research, as well as my dissertation, was on the British Transatlantic Slave Trade. Have been taught by leaders in the field.
The effects of the British Industrial Revolution are intrinsically linked to the slave trade. We cannot imagine what an industrial Britain without the trade would look like. Liverpool went from a city of around ~5000 to 90000 during the 1700s, this growth almost entirely centred around ship building and outfitting industries, with insurance and financing also growing within the city. Beyond this, it's important to understand that Caribbean sugar colonies were almost entirely agricultural, that they had no industry of their own, with sugar refining, which had to be done quickly after harvesting, the only industrial process completed in the islands. This meant all industrial processes necessary for the success of the sugar colonies were done in Britain. For example, the city of Sheffield was the origin for almost all iron tools headed for the Caribbean, usually receiving direct commission from planters themselves, leading to a massive stimulus to the city's steel industry, enriching it and shaping how it grew going forward. In the Southwest, Bristol saw similar growth to Liverpool, as another of Britain's major slave trade ports. Through Bristol, copper machinery that would be used to refine sugar in the Caribbean was transported, which stimulated copper mining in Cornwall, as well as coal mining in South Wales, which would fuel copper smelting. Tea drinking grew as a response to cheap, available sugar, and as such the potteries of Stoke grew and shaped the city. I could give more examples to drive home the point that there are absolutely no urban areas in the UK that were not in some way shaped by the industrial needs of the British Transatlantic slave trade. That's not to mention institutions such as Lloyds of London that came into existence as a direct response to demand for the insurance of slave voyages.
Sure it's easy to see the benefits bestowed upon absentee planters when one looks at somewhere such as Glevering Hall, but Britains industrial economy was stimulated by the trade far beyond that.
[Post edited 29 Oct 2024 12:50]
I survived Ipswich 0-0 Burton
5
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 07:25 - Oct 29 with 1068 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 23:50 - Oct 28 by judespiveyg
Currently studying for a Masters in Economic History at Cambridge. Much of my undergraduate research, as well as my dissertation, was on the British Transatlantic Slave Trade. Have been taught by leaders in the field.
The effects of the British Industrial Revolution are intrinsically linked to the slave trade. We cannot imagine what an industrial Britain without the trade would look like. Liverpool went from a city of around ~5000 to 90000 during the 1700s, this growth almost entirely centred around ship building and outfitting industries, with insurance and financing also growing within the city. Beyond this, it's important to understand that Caribbean sugar colonies were almost entirely agricultural, that they had no industry of their own, with sugar refining, which had to be done quickly after harvesting, the only industrial process completed in the islands. This meant all industrial processes necessary for the success of the sugar colonies were done in Britain. For example, the city of Sheffield was the origin for almost all iron tools headed for the Caribbean, usually receiving direct commission from planters themselves, leading to a massive stimulus to the city's steel industry, enriching it and shaping how it grew going forward. In the Southwest, Bristol saw similar growth to Liverpool, as another of Britain's major slave trade ports. Through Bristol, copper machinery that would be used to refine sugar in the Caribbean was transported, which stimulated copper mining in Cornwall, as well as coal mining in South Wales, which would fuel copper smelting. Tea drinking grew as a response to cheap, available sugar, and as such the potteries of Stoke grew and shaped the city. I could give more examples to drive home the point that there are absolutely no urban areas in the UK that were not in some way shaped by the industrial needs of the British Transatlantic slave trade. That's not to mention institutions such as Lloyds of London that came into existence as a direct response to demand for the insurance of slave voyages.
Sure it's easy to see the benefits bestowed upon absentee planters when one looks at somewhere such as Glevering Hall, but Britains industrial economy was stimulated by the trade far beyond that.
[Post edited 29 Oct 2024 12:50]
Best post of the thread so far, but given your chosen vocation that's not surprising. Do you have any comment on the idea that Britain took it's eye off the ball (partly due to the madness of King George) in letting the American colonies go but teh Empire would never have released it's grip on Jamaica (highest grade sugar being much more valuable than so~so cotton) ?
And, because I am following Phil's advice to not engage with posters with whom squabbles are likely, here is my Black History Month track:
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:50 - Oct 27 by ITFCSG
In 1982 Thatcher basically decided the fate of Hong Kong without any consultation from the local population or even the colonial Hong Kong administration resulting in the UK subsequently handing over 7 million + Hongkongese (who in many ways are closer to us in terms of culture and ethics than mainland China) to Communist China based on a "promise" of "One Country, Two Systems" which the Chinese Communists obviously failed to honour. Compare that to how we handled the issue of the Falklands and Portugal granting full Portuguese citizenship to any Macau resident born prior to the handover of Macau in 1999.
The extended BN(O) lifeboat scheme was only granted to Hongkongese after tens of thousands were persecuted during the 2019 protests coupled with the subsequent clampdown of civil liberties in Hong Kong. Prior to that multiple UK governments basically refused to grant BN(O) holders any rights besides having an extra passport for use. I see it as an exception and not a precedent.
Britain had a 150 year lease on Hong Kong which was up. The Chinese refused to renew it so HK had to go back to them. The UK govt tried to get the best deal for those still living there which China agreed to and then backtracked on later.
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Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:29 - Oct 29 with 990 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:03 - Oct 29 by flykickingbybgunn
Britain had a 150 year lease on Hong Kong which was up. The Chinese refused to renew it so HK had to go back to them. The UK govt tried to get the best deal for those still living there which China agreed to and then backtracked on later.
Although, given that the Communist revolution in mainland China completely changed the course of that nation's history, effectively creating two China's. was there any substantive argument leading up to 1999 for giving up Hong Kong to Taiwan (a more likely candidate for the legacy from when the lease was made) ?
To get the thread back on track can I also mention the modern day slavery of Uyghur people:
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:29 - Oct 29 by WeWereZombies
Although, given that the Communist revolution in mainland China completely changed the course of that nation's history, effectively creating two China's. was there any substantive argument leading up to 1999 for giving up Hong Kong to Taiwan (a more likely candidate for the legacy from when the lease was made) ?
To get the thread back on track can I also mention the modern day slavery of Uyghur people:
in the world of realpolitik, backing Taiwan over China was never a realistic option, especially once China had ditched old school Communism & decided to do business with the West.
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:46 - Oct 29 by Radlett_blue
in the world of realpolitik, backing Taiwan over China was never a realistic option, especially once China had ditched old school Communism & decided to do business with the West.
Very true, although in 1999 the People's Republic of China was in the early phase of its transition to the economic powerhouse it is today. It was still two years before it joined the World Trade Organisation. There is an element that Nixon's move towards rapprochement enabled the use of cheaper Chinese labour and that trend continues in the Chinese use of Uyghers so that the organisation of corporations and our own consumerism show some culpability for either creating the conditions or exploiting the conditions of forced labour and slavery.
There seems to be two related historical sins of which we The British are accused of and are expected by some to pay 'reparations'.
1) The Empire and colonialism in general.
Most of human history is the story of empires rising and falling, the powerful and successful dominating the weak. It just so happens the British Empire was one of the more recent, and most successful ones to do so. It is still living history for some. Therefore, we are the baddies. We industrialised early and had the best Navy. Had we not, no doubt it would have been someone else and we would be asking *them* for reparations.
But like empires before it, it got too big for it's boots and then finished itself off via two rounds of effort in preventing a German empire in the 20th Century. Add to that the substantial foreign aid and support we provide to former colonies ever since. You are welcome, world.
So in short I don't think we owe anyone anything just for being best at war games and being late to the party, in historical terms. We also have a redemption arc to be proud of.
2) Slavery
Again, a practice as old as humanity and only widely accepted as an evil since we put an end to it, at great expense and effort. (noted of course there are still modern forms which we should always continue to fight).
We see in this thread the crude argument: "if their descendants today don't like it here they can always go back to Africa" which is clearly silly and xenophobic. How about we just agree that any descendant today can prove they are worse off or have materially suffered because of what happened to their forebears, they can claim compensation. I doubt there are many that can. Otherwise it's just a cash-grab compo claim because "your grandad oppressed my grandad"
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:34 - Oct 29 by baxterbasics
There seems to be two related historical sins of which we The British are accused of and are expected by some to pay 'reparations'.
1) The Empire and colonialism in general.
Most of human history is the story of empires rising and falling, the powerful and successful dominating the weak. It just so happens the British Empire was one of the more recent, and most successful ones to do so. It is still living history for some. Therefore, we are the baddies. We industrialised early and had the best Navy. Had we not, no doubt it would have been someone else and we would be asking *them* for reparations.
But like empires before it, it got too big for it's boots and then finished itself off via two rounds of effort in preventing a German empire in the 20th Century. Add to that the substantial foreign aid and support we provide to former colonies ever since. You are welcome, world.
So in short I don't think we owe anyone anything just for being best at war games and being late to the party, in historical terms. We also have a redemption arc to be proud of.
2) Slavery
Again, a practice as old as humanity and only widely accepted as an evil since we put an end to it, at great expense and effort. (noted of course there are still modern forms which we should always continue to fight).
We see in this thread the crude argument: "if their descendants today don't like it here they can always go back to Africa" which is clearly silly and xenophobic. How about we just agree that any descendant today can prove they are worse off or have materially suffered because of what happened to their forebears, they can claim compensation. I doubt there are many that can. Otherwise it's just a cash-grab compo claim because "your grandad oppressed my grandad"
Well said. I would only add that the Africans were selling their enemies as slaves when the Romans turned up to buy them.
Far better to concentrate on the slavery that is ongoing now and act to prevent that.
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Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:20 - Oct 29 with 850 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 23:50 - Oct 28 by judespiveyg
Currently studying for a Masters in Economic History at Cambridge. Much of my undergraduate research, as well as my dissertation, was on the British Transatlantic Slave Trade. Have been taught by leaders in the field.
The effects of the British Industrial Revolution are intrinsically linked to the slave trade. We cannot imagine what an industrial Britain without the trade would look like. Liverpool went from a city of around ~5000 to 90000 during the 1700s, this growth almost entirely centred around ship building and outfitting industries, with insurance and financing also growing within the city. Beyond this, it's important to understand that Caribbean sugar colonies were almost entirely agricultural, that they had no industry of their own, with sugar refining, which had to be done quickly after harvesting, the only industrial process completed in the islands. This meant all industrial processes necessary for the success of the sugar colonies were done in Britain. For example, the city of Sheffield was the origin for almost all iron tools headed for the Caribbean, usually receiving direct commission from planters themselves, leading to a massive stimulus to the city's steel industry, enriching it and shaping how it grew going forward. In the Southwest, Bristol saw similar growth to Liverpool, as another of Britain's major slave trade ports. Through Bristol, copper machinery that would be used to refine sugar in the Caribbean was transported, which stimulated copper mining in Cornwall, as well as coal mining in South Wales, which would fuel copper smelting. Tea drinking grew as a response to cheap, available sugar, and as such the potteries of Stoke grew and shaped the city. I could give more examples to drive home the point that there are absolutely no urban areas in the UK that were not in some way shaped by the industrial needs of the British Transatlantic slave trade. That's not to mention institutions such as Lloyds of London that came into existence as a direct response to demand for the insurance of slave voyages.
Sure it's easy to see the benefits bestowed upon absentee planters when one looks at somewhere such as Glevering Hall, but Britains industrial economy was stimulated by the trade far beyond that.
[Post edited 29 Oct 2024 12:50]
Another leftist spreading pseudo-Marxist gibberish (C. R Jenrick MP).
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Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:25 - Oct 29 with 839 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 19:31 - Oct 28 by blueasfook
Bit off with your dates there. Slavery in Britain was abolished in 1834. Slavery in the US some 30 years later after the end of the American Civil War.
If we want to be that accurate the slavery abolition act received Royal Assent Aug 28 1833. It was enacted Aug 1 1834. Slavery was abolished in the US in 1865.
Slavery was alive and well in Britain before the Romans and evolved into a form of serfdom. Lucky serfs! The abolitionist movement began in the 1770s so over 60 years of struggle against to our eyes is an abomination. A crime against humanity.
Interesting that the downtrodden majority probably had no idea at the time what slavery in the triangular trade form was. Not least because most couldn’t read and their world was a tiny one basically surviving. Yet their descendants may be the ones told to pay up.
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Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:27 - Oct 29 with 833 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:30 - Oct 29 by Blueschev
This right wing ability to see the shady influence of Marxism in everything is a worrying import from the US that makes very little sense.
It's a bit like this "radical left" nonsense too. Anyone slightly to the left of the far right loons are now considered radical. Our dear own Labour party were accused of being radical left by Trumps team just last week. That's when you know they've lost it!
Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.
2
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:46 - Oct 29 with 791 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:25 - Oct 29 by Churchman
If we want to be that accurate the slavery abolition act received Royal Assent Aug 28 1833. It was enacted Aug 1 1834. Slavery was abolished in the US in 1865.
Slavery was alive and well in Britain before the Romans and evolved into a form of serfdom. Lucky serfs! The abolitionist movement began in the 1770s so over 60 years of struggle against to our eyes is an abomination. A crime against humanity.
Interesting that the downtrodden majority probably had no idea at the time what slavery in the triangular trade form was. Not least because most couldn’t read and their world was a tiny one basically surviving. Yet their descendants may be the ones told to pay up.
Clans on the West coast of Scotland were still using defeated enemies for tasks such as rowing boats well into the fourteenth century, and whilst fruitlessly looking for internet evidence as a link to back up what I have read in libraries I came upon this:
'A 1606 act Anent Coilyearis and Saltaris (1606 c. 2) had placed Scottish "coalyers, coal-bearers and salters" in a condition of permanent bondage to their employer... Any such worker who absented from that employer and sought to work elsewhere was to be punished as a thief... The act also included provision whereby vagabonds could be placed unwillingly into the same compulsory labour.'
And then we have the Tenth Commandment:
'10. You must not desire your fellow man’s house. You must not desire your fellow man’s wife nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his donkey nor anything that belongs to your fellow man'
But that's from the Watchtower version of the Bible, not every version uses 'slave', some use 'servant'.
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:42 - Oct 29 by Whos_blue
It's a bit like this "radical left" nonsense too. Anyone slightly to the left of the far right loons are now considered radical. Our dear own Labour party were accused of being radical left by Trumps team just last week. That's when you know they've lost it!
This goes both ways though. Look at how many on the Labour left complain that their own leader is a Tory. Or how anyone to the right of Gordon Brown is a Nazi.
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:03 - Oct 29 by flykickingbybgunn
Britain had a 150 year lease on Hong Kong which was up. The Chinese refused to renew it so HK had to go back to them. The UK govt tried to get the best deal for those still living there which China agreed to and then backtracked on later.
The 150 year lease was on the New Territories, not Kowloon or Hong Kong island, which had been ceded in perpetuity and was where about half the population lived.
What the British government could have done was respect Hong Kongers' right to self-determination and hold a referendum asking people if they wanted to remain under British control, transfer to Chinese control or become independent.
2
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:38 - Oct 29 with 695 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 23:50 - Oct 28 by judespiveyg
Currently studying for a Masters in Economic History at Cambridge. Much of my undergraduate research, as well as my dissertation, was on the British Transatlantic Slave Trade. Have been taught by leaders in the field.
The effects of the British Industrial Revolution are intrinsically linked to the slave trade. We cannot imagine what an industrial Britain without the trade would look like. Liverpool went from a city of around ~5000 to 90000 during the 1700s, this growth almost entirely centred around ship building and outfitting industries, with insurance and financing also growing within the city. Beyond this, it's important to understand that Caribbean sugar colonies were almost entirely agricultural, that they had no industry of their own, with sugar refining, which had to be done quickly after harvesting, the only industrial process completed in the islands. This meant all industrial processes necessary for the success of the sugar colonies were done in Britain. For example, the city of Sheffield was the origin for almost all iron tools headed for the Caribbean, usually receiving direct commission from planters themselves, leading to a massive stimulus to the city's steel industry, enriching it and shaping how it grew going forward. In the Southwest, Bristol saw similar growth to Liverpool, as another of Britain's major slave trade ports. Through Bristol, copper machinery that would be used to refine sugar in the Caribbean was transported, which stimulated copper mining in Cornwall, as well as coal mining in South Wales, which would fuel copper smelting. Tea drinking grew as a response to cheap, available sugar, and as such the potteries of Stoke grew and shaped the city. I could give more examples to drive home the point that there are absolutely no urban areas in the UK that were not in some way shaped by the industrial needs of the British Transatlantic slave trade. That's not to mention institutions such as Lloyds of London that came into existence as a direct response to demand for the insurance of slave voyages.
Sure it's easy to see the benefits bestowed upon absentee planters when one looks at somewhere such as Glevering Hall, but Britains industrial economy was stimulated by the trade far beyond that.
[Post edited 29 Oct 2024 12:50]
^^ Yeah what he said.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:46 - Oct 29 by baxterbasics
This goes both ways though. Look at how many on the Labour left complain that their own leader is a Tory. Or how anyone to the right of Gordon Brown is a Nazi.
Not sure I've heard anyone use the Gordon Brown/nazi anology tbh Baxter. I saw a clip today were trump is talking about be called a nazi. I might be wrong, but has anyone actually said that? I know Kelly drew comparisons with his "fascist tendancies" remark, but I'm not sure the Harris team have extrapolated that to calling him out as a nazi. Happy to be corrected of course if they have.
Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.
0
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:46 - Oct 29 with 673 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 08:47 - Oct 29 by WeWereZombies
Best post of the thread so far, but given your chosen vocation that's not surprising. Do you have any comment on the idea that Britain took it's eye off the ball (partly due to the madness of King George) in letting the American colonies go but teh Empire would never have released it's grip on Jamaica (highest grade sugar being much more valuable than so~so cotton) ?
And, because I am following Phil's advice to not engage with posters with whom squabbles are likely, here is my Black History Month track:
Interesting question, you're pretty much correct in that sugar colonies were far more profitable than the North American colonies, and this had impact upon the outcome of the revolution.
Consider the demographic composition of Caribbean. With plantations growing in size, land was falling into the hands of fewer and fewer white planters, and enslaved Africans began to take up a much larger proportion of the population of Caribbean islands, leaving white planters incredibly vulnerable to revolt, with Tacky's Revolt in Jamaica in 1760 sending shockwaves across the Caribbean and to Britain. White planters, many of whom occupied parliamentary positions as part of the powerful West India lobby, demanded protection from the Royal Navy, and as a result much government expenditure and military capacity was sent to these islands. American colonies had much larger white populations proportionally, with Virginia having the largest percentage of enslaved Africans at around ~55% of total population, with colonies in New England much lower than this. As such, they were much less reliant on British military protection, so independence was a realistic proposition. Caribbean planters actually spent much greater amounts under the Stamp Act than North Americans, which was one of the key drivers of discontent, and whilst some Caribbean colonies did somewhat support the American cause, this was not enough to develop into any sort of meaningful resistance. Therefore its not so much that the British government wouldn't release its grip on the Caribbean, its that these colonies absolutely needed the British for protection, which wasn't the case in North America. During 1776, Britain was compelled to still provide significant military force in ensuring Caribbean colonies remained safe, and ensure enslaved Africans didn't capitalise upon a reduction in military presence, and as such was forced to limit the amount of strength it could send to North America, ultimately a key decider in the conflict.
[Post edited 29 Oct 2024 12:52]
I survived Ipswich 0-0 Burton
2
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:49 - Oct 29 with 647 views
Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:41 - Oct 29 by Whos_blue
Not sure I've heard anyone use the Gordon Brown/nazi anology tbh Baxter. I saw a clip today were trump is talking about be called a nazi. I might be wrong, but has anyone actually said that? I know Kelly drew comparisons with his "fascist tendancies" remark, but I'm not sure the Harris team have extrapolated that to calling him out as a nazi. Happy to be corrected of course if they have.
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