| Commonwealth calls for reparations. 16:44 - Oct 26 with 17961 views | OldFart71 |
Give in to this we may as well pack our bags and move out of Britain. We cannot be held accountable for everything that happened in the past otherwise we leave ourselves open to everyone claiming something for what happened to their forbears many years past. As was pointed out on the radio last night Britain were at the forefront of abolishing slavery and whilst it was abhorrent Britain wasn't solely responsible for it happening. |  | | |  |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:31 - Oct 28 with 1799 views | CoachRob |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:43 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
my point is that any profits from so long ago have been realised and consumed by distant generations. that value doesn't persist as some form of ghost capital in modern companies. if i buy shares in, say, P&O today i pay a value which is based on the firms future profits. nothing that happened even 200 years ago affects those future profits. there is no logic at all to those who have P&O shares in their pension pot today being asked to fund reparations. the profits from these things were extracted and consumed 10 generations ago. [Post edited 28 Oct 2024 11:08]
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Same argument climate change deniers make about climate reparations. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:40 - Oct 28 with 1767 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:31 - Oct 28 by CoachRob |
Same argument climate change deniers make about climate reparations. |
the difference is of course that the vast majority of the climate changing activities have happened in the life time of the current population, not 200+ years ago. so it's a very different argument. the consumption of the people in the wealthy west from the 2nd half of the 20th century has caused climate change. equally, getting all countries to reduce emissions, including those seeking to develop through economic growth, necessarily involves some cost sharing. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:40 - Oct 28 with 1764 views | blueasfook |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:08 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
and you clearly need to read some economic history to understand that economic development comes through savings derived from many varied sources and that focusing on one source is silly. it makes just as much sense to argue that profits from agriculture drove the industrial revolution. the industrial revolution transformed britain - the industrial revolution was not caused by slavery. |
This article concludes otherwise, but yeah I am sure you know better.
https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/slavery-and-british-industrial-revolution |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:50 - Oct 28 with 1749 views | lowhouseblue |
oh the old google 'slavery and industrial revolution'; click on first link; article abstract seems to match what i want to argue; don't read article; post link to article. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:03 - Oct 28 with 1647 views | blueasfook |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:50 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
oh the old google 'slavery and industrial revolution'; click on first link; article abstract seems to match what i want to argue; don't read article; post link to article. |
Not quite. i think it was the third or fourth link that came up. The first 3 didnt quite back me up :D
But even so, Britain DID do quite well out of the slave trade. To argue it didn't, is wrong. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:13 - Oct 28 with 1628 views | mutters |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:46 - Oct 27 by Churchman |
Spot on post.
Claims? Just against the Brits. It’s as if slavery was invented by this country and abolished by others.
This abomination has been going on since man first stood upright and continues to this day. Exploitation.
If the U.K. is to pay reparations I presume descendants of the Vikings (Scandinavia) and Italy (Romans) will be compensating us. Italy: Carthage, Carthage: Spain and southern Europe, Germany the rest of Europe for WW2 slavery. North Africa compensate Europe for the Barbary pirates etc, France for their efforts including reintroducing it in 1800 when he had a labour shortage and for the Gauls, Spain and Portugal for S America, Japan the US and U.K. for WW2, US for Africa and for not abolishing it until the 1860s. Then there’s Egypt, Syria, Persia in ancient times, the Greeks, Saladin and so we go on. That’s for starters.
We all have ancestry and it seems odd to just draw a line around UKs involvement in the barbaric (to 21c eyes) triangular trade.
Your last paragraph is in my view the way forward. |
Just came to say something similar but you've said it clearly.
I am not condoning slavery in anyway, it is a horrific act but it has been going on since the dawn of time. It's difficult to exclude some groups of people and not others. Do we go back as far as Mesopotamian times?
Who decides when the baseline is drawn? |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:17 - Oct 28 with 1625 views | Churchman |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:03 - Oct 28 by blueasfook |
Not quite. i think it was the third or fourth link that came up. The first 3 didnt quite back me up :D
But even so, Britain DID do quite well out of the slave trade. To argue it didn't, is wrong. |
Some of the rich people, the tiny minority might have benefitted out of the slave trade (some of certainly did) but the lot of everyone else was no better and in fact for some, a lot worse.
In other words you might see evidence of slavery profit in say buildings of Bristol, but not the people. It was nothing to do with my ancestors or 99% of other people’s and to suggest those people should now pay for what happened 250 years ago that bears no connection to them is frankly odd.
What is not odd is that it is in everybody’s interest to learn properly what the slave trade was, ensure it is stamped out where it is still practiced and to help develop the economies of those Commonwealth countries scarred by it, as suggested by another poster earlier. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:40 - Oct 28 with 1581 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:35 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
And I'm giving you a feasible alternative, which you are refusing to consider ~ to the detriment of all (apart from a few billionaires.) Not clever. |
You're not though! Lowhouse said it can't be done, you said "the feasibility is a moot point" and I said the feasibility is hugely important... and now you're saying it IS feasible! |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:41 - Oct 28 with 1577 views | Churchman |
A digression but an interesting article on the antics of King Leopold and the Belgians over Congo in the latter part of the 19c right up to 1960. Not technically slavery, but forced Labour? Hostage taking? Abdominal practices? It’s all here and a truly horrific story that happened long after slavery was abolished by Britain.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Belgian-Congo
Mans inhumanity to man knows no limits. | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:43 - Oct 28 with 1569 views | mutters |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:17 - Oct 28 by Churchman |
Some of the rich people, the tiny minority might have benefitted out of the slave trade (some of certainly did) but the lot of everyone else was no better and in fact for some, a lot worse.
In other words you might see evidence of slavery profit in say buildings of Bristol, but not the people. It was nothing to do with my ancestors or 99% of other people’s and to suggest those people should now pay for what happened 250 years ago that bears no connection to them is frankly odd.
What is not odd is that it is in everybody’s interest to learn properly what the slave trade was, ensure it is stamped out where it is still practiced and to help develop the economies of those Commonwealth countries scarred by it, as suggested by another poster earlier. |
Whilst there was obviously certain people who benefitted massively from slavery, could it be argued that the whole of Britain gained as it was built on slave labour until it was abolished back in the early 19th century?
Did Britain prosper on the back of slavery? | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 15:39 - Oct 28 with 1519 views | WeWereZombies |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:40 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
the difference is of course that the vast majority of the climate changing activities have happened in the life time of the current population, not 200+ years ago. so it's a very different argument. the consumption of the people in the wealthy west from the 2nd half of the 20th century has caused climate change. equally, getting all countries to reduce emissions, including those seeking to develop through economic growth, necessarily involves some cost sharing. |
I think you will find that deforestation started much longer ago than two hundred years. The pace of change has certainly accelerated since the Second World War but most of the practices that we are now beginning to perceive as bad practice started hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.
I would recommend 'Wilding' by Isabella Tree as a starting point if you have not already read it. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:09 - Oct 28 with 1477 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 15:39 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
I think you will find that deforestation started much longer ago than two hundred years. The pace of change has certainly accelerated since the Second World War but most of the practices that we are now beginning to perceive as bad practice started hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.
I would recommend 'Wilding' by Isabella Tree as a starting point if you have not already read it. |
but in terms of greenhouse gases a huge proportion of the total has been emitted since 1970 ie within the life time of most of us one here. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:16 - Oct 28 with 1453 views | DanTheMan |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 15:39 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
I think you will find that deforestation started much longer ago than two hundred years. The pace of change has certainly accelerated since the Second World War but most of the practices that we are now beginning to perceive as bad practice started hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.
I would recommend 'Wilding' by Isabella Tree as a starting point if you have not already read it. |
Deforestation is a problem, but the rapid rise in CO2 emissions happened much later, mainly from the 1960s and onwards. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:32 - Oct 28 with 1412 views | Radlett_blue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:43 - Oct 28 by mutters |
Whilst there was obviously certain people who benefitted massively from slavery, could it be argued that the whole of Britain gained as it was built on slave labour until it was abolished back in the early 19th century?
Did Britain prosper on the back of slavery? |
The triangle of the slave trade would have benefited the British economy, especially certain individuals but also the economies of surrounding port cities, notably Bristol & Liverpool. Good luck with asking the Scousers to pay their share of reparations! |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:43 - Oct 28 with 1399 views | noggin |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:32 - Oct 28 by Radlett_blue |
The triangle of the slave trade would have benefited the British economy, especially certain individuals but also the economies of surrounding port cities, notably Bristol & Liverpool. Good luck with asking the Scousers to pay their share of reparations! |
Why should descendants of Irish immigrants pay though? |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:46 - Oct 28 with 1394 views | Radlett_blue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:43 - Oct 28 by noggin |
Why should descendants of Irish immigrants pay though? |
Why should any nation pay reparations for sins committed several generations earlier? | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 17:09 - Oct 28 with 1370 views | Churchman |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:32 - Oct 28 by Radlett_blue |
The triangle of the slave trade would have benefited the British economy, especially certain individuals but also the economies of surrounding port cities, notably Bristol & Liverpool. Good luck with asking the Scousers to pay their share of reparations! |
See links earlier in the thread. The benefit to the ‘economy’ was small and the benefit to all bar the owners and very rich tiny. A few parks, which I doubt the poor were even allowed in, big buildings - irrelevant as again most people weren’t welcome. Lots of art, a big church or two. Really useful when families were crammed in squalor in one room wondering where the next crust was coming from. So how did the profits of slavery help them?
I don’t see anyone going after the grandchildren and great grandchildren of Nazis and other fascists who were responsible for the deaths and misery of millions for apologies or compo. And rightly so. Why on earth should I and millions like me pay for something 100s of years ago that has no connection to me whatsoever, other than my poor misbegotten ancestors being on the same island? | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 17:14 - Oct 28 with 1358 views | noggin |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:46 - Oct 28 by Radlett_blue |
Why should any nation pay reparations for sins committed several generations earlier? |
I agree. I just don't know why you brought scousers into the discussion. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 17:17 - Oct 28 with 1337 views | Radlett_blue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 17:14 - Oct 28 by noggin |
I agree. I just don't know why you brought scousers into the discussion. |
A misplaced sense of humour, given that Liverpool was Britain's main slaving port. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 17:29 - Oct 28 with 1310 views | mellowblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:08 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
"Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery."
that's a big, reductive, and sweeping claim. i'm not convinced that there is evidence to support it. many different industries and events contributed to the uk's prosperity. i think there's a far more convincing case that the uk's wealth was built on coal - a very brutal industry and horrendously exploitative of labour. we could compensate 19th century coal miners if it wasn't for the fact that they are all dead.
one thing is clear that any profits from slavery went to a small group of the very wealthy and funded their life style and consumption. why the current uk population should be held responsible for what the very wealthy did 300 years ago is quite beyond me. |
Any wealth gained from slavery by Britain was soon spent on the Napoleonic war. Of course wealth gained by individual families very much stayed with those individuals. | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 17:32 - Oct 28 with 1299 views | mellowblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:50 - Oct 27 by ITFCSG |
In 1982 Thatcher basically decided the fate of Hong Kong without any consultation from the local population or even the colonial Hong Kong administration resulting in the UK subsequently handing over 7 million + Hongkongese (who in many ways are closer to us in terms of culture and ethics than mainland China) to Communist China based on a "promise" of "One Country, Two Systems" which the Chinese Communists obviously failed to honour. Compare that to how we handled the issue of the Falklands and Portugal granting full Portuguese citizenship to any Macau resident born prior to the handover of Macau in 1999.
The extended BN(O) lifeboat scheme was only granted to Hongkongese after tens of thousands were persecuted during the 2019 protests coupled with the subsequent clampdown of civil liberties in Hong Kong. Prior to that multiple UK governments basically refused to grant BN(O) holders any rights besides having an extra passport for use. I see it as an exception and not a precedent. |
To be fair the Macau population was about 7% the size of the Hong Kong population. Much easier for Portugal to make their commitment when the numbers were relatively small. | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:15 - Oct 28 with 1229 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 07:12 - Oct 28 by noggin |
The Government and The King should officially apologise for historical wrongdoings. It should be unequivocal and heart felt. IMHO, cash would be an insult to those stolen from their lands, hundreds of years ago. |
Cash would be an insult ?
But perhaps not in their view |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:27 - Oct 28 with 1213 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:50 - Oct 27 by Crawfordsboot |
British, French and Dutch slave traders all shipped slaves across the Atlantic. Arab and African slave traders were invariably involved in capturing slaves and transporting them to the coast to be sold to the British, French and Dutch. They were the sold to plantation owners.
Are claims being made against all those involved, or just against Brits? I’m not aware of wider claims but then that might just be that they have not been publicised in the UK.
On the question of compensation paid to traders on the banning of the slave trade and comparing that to the lack of compensation for the descendants of slaves I think that is a spurious argument.
Payments made to slavers were made so as to enable the banning of the slave trade. Without those payments abolition would have taken much longer.
Personally I can’t see how you can put a price on this past injustice. What Britain could do is reaffirm that historic slavery was abhorrent, apologise for our involvement and make concessions to affected peoples by allowing them access to UK institutions (such as access to UK Universities) on the same terms and fees as Brits. |
Having read through the various posts above there are clearly lots of competing claims however I return to my early post as above.
There is no obvious or reasonable basis for making financial recompense. A willingness to apologise and give a helping hand where possible would seem to me to be a far more appropriate and practical response" [Post edited 28 Oct 2024 18:28]
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 19:31 - Oct 28 with 1158 views | blueasfook |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:17 - Oct 28 by Churchman |
It actually wasn’t. Attached is a crude, brief summary of the IR and its timeline. It was more about the factory system replacing people and cottage industries than one particular product.
https://www.britannica.com/summary/Industrial-Revolution-Timeline
Slavery in Britain was abolished in 1807, before the Industrial Revolution really kicked in. Yes, machines in the cotton industry in the north drew in imports from America and the owners of the factors of production clearly weren’t fussy how it was supplied. But strangely nobody is demanding compo from America. And before we all pile in on Manchester, the abolitionist movement from right thinking very brave people was very strong there.
Yes, rich people built town halls and competed with who could be the grandest, whether it was buildings or Josiah Wedgewood’s new dinner service, but the vast majority of the people lived on next to nothing here. Abject poverty. Kids mashed in looms or choking down mineshafts. More than 100 people died digging Box Tunnel for Brunel’s GWR. It was thought at the time to be a really low casualty figure. Nobody cared. Navvies were expendable and cheap. It was a cruel world unless you were rich.
A few years ago I was chatting to a mate outside work. He gave me a strange look and said ‘odd to think 200 years ago I could have been your slave’. I showed him a picture of the Yarmouth Rows that my mum and her family were born into and said ‘I don’t think you’d have been my slave. Do you?’ He smiled and went on to have a good discussion about it over a pint.
The point is that most people had miserable lives. At the very bottom of course were slaves out in the W Indies, America etc but I think to suggest that it’s as simple as heaping the British Empire and our lives today purely on the profit of slavery is incorrect.
Lastly, if we want to demolish the fruits of slavery like Manchester’s magnificent Town Hall, great. But let’s start with the Pyramids. To my knowledge, I don’t think the 1000s that built them got paid. |
Bit off with your dates there. Slavery in Britain was abolished in 1834. Slavery in the US some 30 years later after the end of the American Civil War. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 21:37 - Oct 28 with 1082 views | Europablue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 13:48 - Oct 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
A great question, and I can certainly see a case for it.
It feels like a Pandora’s box which would trigger all sorts of claims due to historical injustices. Perhaps the families of British soldiers worked to death at the hands of the Japanese should bring claims. And as others say - how far do you feasibly go back, the Barbary slave trade, Viking raids, Roman slavery of Britons? Even in WW2 Germany paid little in the way of reparations - after the punishing treaty of Versailles (WW1) it was realised that such reparations just bred further resentment and forgiveness and education was the way to build better relationships.
Edit - and these are my views as a Republican that realises much of the Royal’s wealth comes from historical plunder. I mean they even ‘own’ the seabed ffs… [Post edited 27 Oct 2024 13:53]
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Anyone who wishes to pay reparations are free to do so. Officially, the limit is to apologize for any historical involvement and reaffirm our modern beliefs. | | | |
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