| Commonwealth calls for reparations. 16:44 - Oct 26 with 17966 views | OldFart71 |
Give in to this we may as well pack our bags and move out of Britain. We cannot be held accountable for everything that happened in the past otherwise we leave ourselves open to everyone claiming something for what happened to their forbears many years past. As was pointed out on the radio last night Britain were at the forefront of abolishing slavery and whilst it was abhorrent Britain wasn't solely responsible for it happening. |  | | |  |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 06:36 - Oct 28 with 1681 views | noggin |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 20:48 - Oct 27 by bluejacko |
Wind your neck in Mr Angry, obviously IF they decided to leave their country for a better life in Africa it would only be polite to do sođ |
Is your narrative, "We actually gave the slaves a better life and their ancestors are lucky to be living where we allowed them to settle." |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 06:55 - Oct 28 with 1644 views | Benters |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:15 - Oct 27 by bluejacko |
Itâs quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!
Are the Portuguese or Spanish being asked for money after all it was a Portuguese who bought the first slaves off Africans willing to sell them.
This is a con job and if Starmer falls for it all hell will break loose! |
This. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 07:02 - Oct 28 with 1632 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Although it was obviously horrible what happened I agree with others in this thread saying, "How far back do you go?" and "Will we be compensated for the wrongs done to us in history?" Also, as others have said, our cupboard is bare... and you just know if it did happen it would fall on us tax payers - who had nothing to do with the slave trade.
I thought it hilarious someone on the news who supported reparations saying Starmer needs to show leadership here - but what they really meant was "by doing the thing I want him to do". Saying it was abhorrent, we need to learn and educate for the future, but also standing firm on reparations won't be paid, is also strong leadership.
Also, why is this a story now, when a new government's only been in a few months? Why weren't there these claims for reparations over the previous 14 years? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 07:08 - Oct 28 with 1617 views | noggin |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 06:55 - Oct 28 by Benters |
This. |
Here he is, like a xenophobic jack in the box. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 07:12 - Oct 28 with 1599 views | noggin |
The Government and The King should officially apologise for historical wrongdoings. It should be unequivocal and heart felt. IMHO, cash would be an insult to those stolen from their lands, hundreds of years ago. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 07:24 - Oct 28 with 1569 views | noggin |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:15 - Oct 27 by bluejacko |
Itâs quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!
Are the Portuguese or Spanish being asked for money after all it was a Portuguese who bought the first slaves off Africans willing to sell them.
This is a con job and if Starmer falls for it all hell will break loose! |
Actually, I see you have read 'reparation' as 'repatriation'. You really should read the story, rather than misreading just the headline. I don't think anyone is asking to be returned to their ancestral homelands. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 08:04 - Oct 28 with 1494 views | MattinLondon |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:17 - Oct 27 by J2BLUE |
For me it should be an apology and that's it.
Realistically, the number would have to be astronomical to even scratch the surface. We could give them all the wealth in the country and it's not going to make up for the horrors inflicted.
I think we should do what Starmer said. Share knowledge, help with climate change, etc. [Post edited 27 Oct 2024 19:06]
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I think thatâs where Iâm at.
Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery.
I think itâs right that the National Trust etc highlights links between its buildings and slavery and I think other businesses etc should also acknowledge such links.
No country can really atone for its past involvement but it can make the present a lot better for those countries whose inhabitants were enslaved. Helping to build infrastructure, share knowledge etc etc. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 08:42 - Oct 28 with 1435 views | Churchman |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 08:04 - Oct 28 by MattinLondon |
I think thatâs where Iâm at.
Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery.
I think itâs right that the National Trust etc highlights links between its buildings and slavery and I think other businesses etc should also acknowledge such links.
No country can really atone for its past involvement but it can make the present a lot better for those countries whose inhabitants were enslaved. Helping to build infrastructure, share knowledge etc etc. |
The slave trade was not solely responsible for Britainâs wealth. It was part of it and individuals did get wealthy on the back of it. Attached is a view.
https://iea.org.uk/media/empire-and-slavery-did-not-make-britain-rich-finds-new-
This provides a slightly different take.
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/how-did-slave-trade-end-britain
The abolitionist movement in Britain is fascinating and took decades to be completely fulfilled. The bravery and persistence of Wilberforce and co in the context of their time is amazing and should be highlighted, especially as it falls more than 30 years before the US and indeed before France.
This abomination was abolished in 1833. The agrarian revolution had happened, forcing many into abject, even worse poverty from an already meagre existence (including ancestors of mine). The Industrial Revolution and the âage of improvementâ was upon us which is largely why our world looks as it does.
It is a subject that requires far more understanding on my part. And I suspect others. I actually have a problem with the NT and its political activities and my money now goes to English Heritage. In terms of slavery, buildings, yes tell the story, but keep them otherwise how do future generations learn? Statues - ok remove them but donât destroy them. They tell a story.
As for businesses, perhaps the German companies, famous names like BMW and Mercedes, would like to recompense the families of the people they worked to death just a few generations ago? Maybe that massive company IG Farben would like to do the same to the relations of the Jews who died in concentration camps. They proudly designed and built the ovens etc and still have the plans.
Lastly, my focus is more on modern slavery. This most appalling practice still exists around the world in various forms. |  | | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:08 - Oct 28 with 1394 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 08:04 - Oct 28 by MattinLondon |
I think thatâs where Iâm at.
Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery.
I think itâs right that the National Trust etc highlights links between its buildings and slavery and I think other businesses etc should also acknowledge such links.
No country can really atone for its past involvement but it can make the present a lot better for those countries whose inhabitants were enslaved. Helping to build infrastructure, share knowledge etc etc. |
"Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery."
that's a big, reductive, and sweeping claim. i'm not convinced that there is evidence to support it. many different industries and events contributed to the uk's prosperity. i think there's a far more convincing case that the uk's wealth was built on coal - a very brutal industry and horrendously exploitative of labour. we could compensate 19th century coal miners if it wasn't for the fact that they are all dead.
one thing is clear that any profits from slavery went to a small group of the very wealthy and funded their life style and consumption. why the current uk population should be held responsible for what the very wealthy did 300 years ago is quite beyond me. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:27 - Oct 28 with 1355 views | Churchman |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:08 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
"Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery."
that's a big, reductive, and sweeping claim. i'm not convinced that there is evidence to support it. many different industries and events contributed to the uk's prosperity. i think there's a far more convincing case that the uk's wealth was built on coal - a very brutal industry and horrendously exploitative of labour. we could compensate 19th century coal miners if it wasn't for the fact that they are all dead.
one thing is clear that any profits from slavery went to a small group of the very wealthy and funded their life style and consumption. why the current uk population should be held responsible for what the very wealthy did 300 years ago is quite beyond me. |
The slave trade added about 2.5% to the U.K. economy according to one of my links above. Less than sheep farming. This in no way dismisses what it was but does provide balance to sweeping statements like âBritish economy built on slaveryâ
You touch in âkingâ coal and the lot of the miners. It wasnât any better in the mills, foundries or anywhere else in the 19c. People had no choice. They were worked to death for a pittance.. alternative? Poor relief and the workhouse where conditions were set beneath that of the lowest paid worker.
The poor deserved to be poor. Theyâd earned it according to Victorian ideals. They didnât have feelings like the wealthy (see Nicholas Nickelby). Besides, in 19c Britain the concept of âremovable inequalitiesâ was believed. If the idle poor worked harder, they could move up in class. Utter nonsense of course but it helped in keeping people in their place. | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:28 - Oct 28 with 1350 views | MattinLondon |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:08 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
"Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery."
that's a big, reductive, and sweeping claim. i'm not convinced that there is evidence to support it. many different industries and events contributed to the uk's prosperity. i think there's a far more convincing case that the uk's wealth was built on coal - a very brutal industry and horrendously exploitative of labour. we could compensate 19th century coal miners if it wasn't for the fact that they are all dead.
one thing is clear that any profits from slavery went to a small group of the very wealthy and funded their life style and consumption. why the current uk population should be held responsible for what the very wealthy did 300 years ago is quite beyond me. |
No one is saying that the UK population should be held responsible. Acknowledging a past wrong isnât doing that at all - if the national consciousness wants that to happen then it will. | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:33 - Oct 28 with 1328 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:28 - Oct 28 by MattinLondon |
No one is saying that the UK population should be held responsible. Acknowledging a past wrong isnât doing that at all - if the national consciousness wants that to happen then it will. |
'No one is saying that the UK population should be held responsible.' the thread is about a call for reparations - other than the current uk population who would be responsible for meeting the commonwealth leaders' call for reparations? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:52 - Oct 28 with 1295 views | WeWereZombies |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:33 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
'No one is saying that the UK population should be held responsible.' the thread is about a call for reparations - other than the current uk population who would be responsible for meeting the commonwealth leaders' call for reparations? |
If the owning and insuring of slave trader's vessels can be traced to current day multinationals then a case can be made for settlements to come from the capital they accrued as a result of their malfeasance. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:58 - Oct 28 with 1280 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:52 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
If the owning and insuring of slave trader's vessels can be traced to current day multinationals then a case can be made for settlements to come from the capital they accrued as a result of their malfeasance. |
Even as you're typing that you must know there's no way that could be enforced. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:03 - Oct 28 with 1267 views | WeWereZombies |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:58 - Oct 28 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Even as you're typing that you must know there's no way that could be enforced. |
Maybe not through legal channels but I think you underestimate the power of popular opinion and the telling effect that boycotts had in helping bring about the end of apartheid. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:11 - Oct 28 with 1258 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:52 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
If the owning and insuring of slave trader's vessels can be traced to current day multinationals then a case can be made for settlements to come from the capital they accrued as a result of their malfeasance. |
over the past 300 years the ownership of companies has clearly changed. anyone involved in the slave trade extracted their profit by receiving dividends and eventually selling their ownership to others a very very long time ago. i doubt there is a single penny of a company's value today that could be meaningfully traced to what some predecessor did 300 years ago - to claim it is pure rhetoric with no historical or accounting basis - any profits or capital gains from that time were taken hundreds of years ago. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:19 - Oct 28 with 1248 views | blueasfook |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 09:08 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
"Britain did grow very rich out of the slave trade and its involvement in it exceeded other countries. A lot of institutions owes its wealth to the trade in human misery."
that's a big, reductive, and sweeping claim. i'm not convinced that there is evidence to support it. many different industries and events contributed to the uk's prosperity. i think there's a far more convincing case that the uk's wealth was built on coal - a very brutal industry and horrendously exploitative of labour. we could compensate 19th century coal miners if it wasn't for the fact that they are all dead.
one thing is clear that any profits from slavery went to a small group of the very wealthy and funded their life style and consumption. why the current uk population should be held responsible for what the very wealthy did 300 years ago is quite beyond me. |
The industrial revolution was certainly driven by the slave trade. The first big industry in the north west was the cotton mills, which thrived on cotton picked by slaves in the southern United states. Not to mention the port of Liverpool's role in the slave triangle. Of course some wealthy industrialists got very rich from it. But whole towns and cities also grew and prospered as a direct result of the slave trade. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:20 - Oct 28 with 1234 views | WeWereZombies |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:11 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
over the past 300 years the ownership of companies has clearly changed. anyone involved in the slave trade extracted their profit by receiving dividends and eventually selling their ownership to others a very very long time ago. i doubt there is a single penny of a company's value today that could be meaningfully traced to what some predecessor did 300 years ago - to claim it is pure rhetoric with no historical or accounting basis - any profits or capital gains from that time were taken hundreds of years ago. |
Different issue, you asked who could be held responsible and I gave an example (couched in corporate personality) so the feasibility is a moot point. By the way, it is less than two hundred years since Britain abolished slave trading but many other nations continued (the Netherlands, France, the United States and Brazil for example) which enabled British corporations to continue investing in the slave trade and thereby making profits and/or adding to their capital. Such practices continue until this very day, particularly in the fashion industry. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:25 - Oct 28 with 1226 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:20 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
Different issue, you asked who could be held responsible and I gave an example (couched in corporate personality) so the feasibility is a moot point. By the way, it is less than two hundred years since Britain abolished slave trading but many other nations continued (the Netherlands, France, the United States and Brazil for example) which enabled British corporations to continue investing in the slave trade and thereby making profits and/or adding to their capital. Such practices continue until this very day, particularly in the fashion industry. |
No, feasibility isn't a moot point. It's pointless suggesting something that isn't feasible. Starmer's being asked because they want the UK government to pay - which means our taxes. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:35 - Oct 28 with 1202 views | WeWereZombies |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:25 - Oct 28 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No, feasibility isn't a moot point. It's pointless suggesting something that isn't feasible. Starmer's being asked because they want the UK government to pay - which means our taxes. |
And I'm giving you a feasible alternative, which you are refusing to consider ~ to the detriment of all (apart from a few billionaires.) Not clever. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:43 - Oct 28 with 1176 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:20 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
Different issue, you asked who could be held responsible and I gave an example (couched in corporate personality) so the feasibility is a moot point. By the way, it is less than two hundred years since Britain abolished slave trading but many other nations continued (the Netherlands, France, the United States and Brazil for example) which enabled British corporations to continue investing in the slave trade and thereby making profits and/or adding to their capital. Such practices continue until this very day, particularly in the fashion industry. |
my point is that any profits from so long ago have been realised and consumed by distant generations. that value doesn't persist as some form of ghost capital in modern companies. if i buy shares in, say, P&O today i pay a value which is based on the firms future profits. nothing that happened even 200 years ago affects those future profits. there is no logic at all to those who have P&O shares in their pension pot today being asked to fund reparations. the profits from these things were extracted and consumed 10 generations ago. [Post edited 28 Oct 2024 11:08]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:48 - Oct 28 with 1160 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:19 - Oct 28 by blueasfook |
The industrial revolution was certainly driven by the slave trade. The first big industry in the north west was the cotton mills, which thrived on cotton picked by slaves in the southern United states. Not to mention the port of Liverpool's role in the slave triangle. Of course some wealthy industrialists got very rich from it. But whole towns and cities also grew and prospered as a direct result of the slave trade. |
the idea that the workers in those towns prospered is a bit rich. cotton was the basis for the exploitation of uk workers on an appalling scale. wealthier people became wealthier but it doesn't explain uk prosperity today. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:57 - Oct 28 with 1141 views | blueasfook |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:48 - Oct 28 by lowhouseblue |
the idea that the workers in those towns prospered is a bit rich. cotton was the basis for the exploitation of uk workers on an appalling scale. wealthier people became wealthier but it doesn't explain uk prosperity today. |
You probably need to read up on how the industrial revolution transformed life in the UK. Institutions, colleges, libraries, housing for workers, etc. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:08 - Oct 28 with 1111 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:57 - Oct 28 by blueasfook |
You probably need to read up on how the industrial revolution transformed life in the UK. Institutions, colleges, libraries, housing for workers, etc. |
and you clearly need to read some economic history to understand that economic development comes through savings derived from many varied sources and that focusing on one source is silly. it makes just as much sense to argue that profits from agriculture drove the industrial revolution. the industrial revolution transformed britain - the industrial revolution was not caused by slavery. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:17 - Oct 28 with 1085 views | Churchman |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 10:19 - Oct 28 by blueasfook |
The industrial revolution was certainly driven by the slave trade. The first big industry in the north west was the cotton mills, which thrived on cotton picked by slaves in the southern United states. Not to mention the port of Liverpool's role in the slave triangle. Of course some wealthy industrialists got very rich from it. But whole towns and cities also grew and prospered as a direct result of the slave trade. |
It actually wasnât. Attached is a crude, brief summary of the IR and its timeline. It was more about the factory system replacing people and cottage industries than one particular product.
https://www.britannica.com/summary/Industrial-Revolution-Timeline
Slavery in Britain was abolished in 1807, before the Industrial Revolution really kicked in. Yes, machines in the cotton industry in the north drew in imports from America and the owners of the factors of production clearly werenât fussy how it was supplied. But strangely nobody is demanding compo from America. And before we all pile in on Manchester, the abolitionist movement from right thinking very brave people was very strong there.
Yes, rich people built town halls and competed with who could be the grandest, whether it was buildings or Josiah Wedgewoodâs new dinner service, but the vast majority of the people lived on next to nothing here. Abject poverty. Kids mashed in looms or choking down mineshafts. More than 100 people died digging Box Tunnel for Brunelâs GWR. It was thought at the time to be a really low casualty figure. Nobody cared. Navvies were expendable and cheap. It was a cruel world unless you were rich.
A few years ago I was chatting to a mate outside work. He gave me a strange look and said âodd to think 200 years ago I could have been your slaveâ. I showed him a picture of the Yarmouth Rows that my mum and her family were born into and said âI donât think youâd have been my slave. Do you?â He smiled and went on to have a good discussion about it over a pint.
The point is that most people had miserable lives. At the very bottom of course were slaves out in the W Indies, America etc but I think to suggest that itâs as simple as heaping the British Empire and our lives today purely on the profit of slavery is incorrect.
Lastly, if we want to demolish the fruits of slavery like Manchesterâs magnificent Town Hall, great. But letâs start with the Pyramids. To my knowledge, I donât think the 1000s that built them got paid. | | | |
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