Forum | So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? by bluelagos

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? 15:05 - Dec 17 with 11566 views

Govt just announced they won't be compensated.

Am split tbh, on the one hand the pension age changes were very much in the public domain, but I guess if those impacted weren't aware (or written to) then can see why they'd be mighty peeved.

Plus I guess any dosh that does go their way is less for public services etc.

Thoughts?

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:14 - Dec 17 with 1732 views

BanksterDebtSlave

My take away thought is that it is mildly amusing watching fans of team red excuse that which they would condemn from team blue and fans of team blue condemning team red for doing that which wouldn’t bother them if carried out by team blue.

You get what you deserve suckers!

[Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:57]

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:22 - Dec 17 with 1708 views

Churchman

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 18:45 - Dec 17 by redrickstuhaart
Ombudsman decision tend to be very consumer friendly. What loss have these people suffered?

Well I can give you a monetary figure for Mrs C if you wish. That’s easy. But as I said earlier I had no faith whatsoever any government would fulfil against anything they promised, so we made our own provision. Therefore, in the real sense of the word we have ‘lost’ nothing.

But others were more reliant on that pension they contributed towards and it’ll be a different story for them.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:32 - Dec 17 with 1689 views

BloomBlue

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 18:45 - Dec 17 by redrickstuhaart
Ombudsman decision tend to be very consumer friendly. What loss have these people suffered?

But you could say that about any Ombudsman decision

I.e. the Banks/lenders might as well say feck off if another PPI type scandal arises and the Ombudsman finds in favour of the consumer. Banks can cleary say there was an admin error but to pay back millions will cost too much and our shareholders cannot afford it. After all 'What loss have these people suffered', and the Gov did it with the WASPI people

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:34 - Dec 17 with 1687 views

redrickstuhaart

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:32 - Dec 17 by BloomBlue

Banks are bound by the ombudsman scheme.

But they do take into account what loss is suffered, and offer modest service issue payments when there is none.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:38 - Dec 17 with 1680 views

BloomBlue

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:34 - Dec 17 by redrickstuhaart
Banks are bound by the ombudsman scheme. But they do take into account what loss is suffered, and offer modest service issue payments when there is none.

Governments are also bound by the ombudsman scheme.

But in this situation they've chosen to ignore it. Hence I would suggest Banks do the same next time. Or just accept there was an admin error but don't pay out millions

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:45 - Dec 17 with 1673 views

redrickstuhaart

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:38 - Dec 17 by BloomBlue
Governments are also bound by the ombudsman scheme. But in this situation they've chosen to ignore it. Hence I would suggest Banks do the same next time. Or just accept there was an admin error but don't pay out millions

No- governments are not. Unless you can point me to something that suggests otherwise.

[Post edited 17 Dec 2024 20:45]

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 21:09 - Dec 17 with 1647 views

flykickingbybgunn

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 17:35 - Dec 17 by Churchman

The BBC says

‘But Kendall said there was evidence that there was "considerable awareness" of the changes to the pension age, and sending letters earlier would not have made a difference to their ability to make retirement choices.
She also said that there was no evidence of "direct financial loss" resulting from the government's decision.
"Given the vast majority of women knew the state pension age was increasing, the government does not believe paying a flat rate to all women at a cost of up to £10.5bn would be fair or proportionate to taxpayers," she said.
Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer said he understood the concern of the Waspi women, but had to take into account whether it was right "to impose a further burden on the taxpayer".

That’s not what Kendall and Rayner said in 2019. Nothing has changed regarding this so it looks to me as if they were either telling porkies for political gain in 2019 or doing so now - if the BBC is accurate.

If this is about the financial situation now, they knew what it was in the run up to the general election and could have announced this along with binning winter fuel allowance. I wonder why they didn’t?

I will reiterate - the rightness of matching pension ages is not an issue. Equality means just that. The how you do it and when is the issue along with the credibility of what you say if you are a politician. We had 14 years of disgraceful politicians. Let’s try and move away from that.

Just 14 ?

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 21:11 - Dec 17 with 1645 views

flykickingbybgunn

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:14 - Dec 17 by BanksterDebtSlave
My take away thought is that it is mildly amusing watching fans of team red excuse that which they would condemn from team blue and fans of team blue condemning team red for doing that which wouldn’t bother them if carried out by team blue. You get what you deserve suckers! [Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:57]

Should have voted Green ? Yellow ? Or whatever colour Reform is ?

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 21:16 - Dec 17 with 1629 views

flykickingbybgunn

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:22 - Dec 17 by Churchman
Well I can give you a monetary figure for Mrs C if you wish. That’s easy. But as I said earlier I had no faith whatsoever any government would fulfil against anything they promised, so we made our own provision. Therefore, in the real sense of the word we have ‘lost’ nothing. But others were more reliant on that pension they contributed towards and it’ll be a different story for them.

Cost us £50,000+ at todays prices. This is not chicken feed.
I mean it would probably pay for 24 hours of Marcus Rashford.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 21:44 - Dec 17 with 1595 views

Churchman

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 21:09 - Dec 17 by flykickingbybgunn
Just 14 ?

Point well made 😃

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 21:47 - Dec 17 with 1585 views

redrickstuhaart

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:22 - Dec 17 by Churchman
Well I can give you a monetary figure for Mrs C if you wish. That’s easy. But as I said earlier I had no faith whatsoever any government would fulfil against anything they promised, so we made our own provision. Therefore, in the real sense of the word we have ‘lost’ nothing. But others were more reliant on that pension they contributed towards and it’ll be a different story for them.

Did she know about it? If so, the lack of perfect notice had no effect.

Otherwise, it also had no effect. Unless you can explain otherwise. Of course, the change in pension age has an effect, but a fair one.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 22:40 - Dec 17 with 1540 views

tractordownsouth

It’s the correct decision by the government. Those affected were given 15 years’ notice, the excuse that some didn’t get a letter for two years (giving them 13 years to plan) doesn’t really cut it. In the budget before I finished my degree, Rishi Sunak cut the repayment threshold for student loans from 27k to 25k. I didn’t get a letter, or any advance notice before I took out my loan, should I get money back?

Blanket compensation would also be regressive. Seeing the likes of Jeremy Corbyn claiming that a £10bn payment to the wealthiest generation funded by the taxes of working people without assets is somehow left wing is laughable.

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 22:55 - Dec 17 with 1513 views

redrickstuhaart

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 22:40 - Dec 17 by tractordownsouth

Indeed. How many made plans which were scuppered by this? Tiny proportion, if any. Save that people have to work for the same time as everyone else before getting supported by the state.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:12 - Dec 17 with 1501 views

Churchman

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 22:40 - Dec 17 by tractordownsouth

Attached is Corporate Advisor Comment:

https://corporate-adviser.com/no-compensation-for-waspi-women-as-dwp-rejects-omb

Guardian take:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/dec/17/anger-greets-uk-government-decisio

Kendall and Rayner were in support in 2019. Now they’ve u turned though nothing has changed. Starmer says the taxpayer can’t afford it. No comment on right and wrong. Just cost.

What really bothers me is what the government has done is throw the Independent Ombudsman’s recommendations in the bin. I’m sure you will agree there is no point whatsoever in wasting taxpayers hard earned money on Ombudsmen, Reviews and committees since the government has chosen to set a precedent by ignoring this one. There you go, that should save a £million or two. No more disputes, no recourse for any perceived injustices. Just suck it up. Sir Kier knows best.

Nobody is disputing the principle of equality btw.

Edit: This mantra about working people funding pensions through taxes. Has anyone considered that those people who have retired might have paid tax and NI too?

[Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:17]

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:18 - Dec 17 with 1471 views

redrickstuhaart

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:12 - Dec 17 by Churchman

[Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:17]

We are in a financial mess. These people have not actually lost out financially as a result of imperfect notification (which is all the ombudsman was looking at).

What is the issue here?

-2

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:23 - Dec 17 with 1460 views

tractordownsouth

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:12 - Dec 17 by Churchman

[Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:17]

I disagree with the position they took in 2019, but that was part of a manifesto in which Labour got its worst post-war result. There was no promise in the 2024 manifesto to offer compensation so I disagree that they’ve “u-turned as if nothing has changed.”

Fair point on the Ombudsman report but Liz Kendall did make a comment on the rights and wrongs of the case - she’s quoted in the article as saying there was “no evidence of direct financial loss” from the changes and that “considerable awareness” was given to the changes.

I don’t think cost would have been a barrier if the case was justified. Significant compensation has been (rightly) given to groups who have been wronged, like the infected blood scandal victims and the postmasters, but the WASPI campaign doesn’t have a leg to stand on compared to those groups.

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:43 - Dec 17 with 1439 views

tractordownsouth

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:12 - Dec 17 by Churchman

[Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:17]

In response to the edit, of course that generation paid tax and NI, but comparatively less than workers today.

In the 1960s, when the first of the WASPI generation entered the workforce, there were four workers for every pensioner, but now there are only three. Not only that, but pensions are triple-locked so are more expensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/alastair-campbell-rory-stewart-office-f

Asking today’s workers, who are already paying more than any previous generations to fund pensions, to cough up another £10bn for an extremely dubious reason is unfair. And that’s before you even add in the wage stagnation, collapse of homeownership and the fact that the state pension probably won’t exist by the time many of them reach their 60s.

Pensioners absolute deserve a comfortable and dignfied retirement, but intergenerational inequality is a huge issue that needs to be tackled and the policies put forward by the WASPI campaign are regressive.

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:49 - Dec 17 with 1427 views

Churchman

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:18 - Dec 17 by redrickstuhaart
We are in a financial mess. These people have not actually lost out financially as a result of imperfect notification (which is all the ombudsman was looking at). What is the issue here?

So the reason the Ombudsman’s recommendations are in the bin is on the basis of cost then. Fine. At least that’s clear.

Bodies like Ombudsman are independent safety nets; mechanisms to right wrongs. What has been done today has set a dangerous precedent. It’s the sort of thing Johnson and Truss’ sorry crowd would do and I don’t like it.

Anyway, as I’ve said, I didn’t trust the government to honour anything and still don’t so made provision. In real terms it doesn’t affect me. Far too many more important things to concern me.

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. I suspect they’ll get a lot of grief for it, but like binning oldies winter fuel it’ll die down. I wonder why they haven’t ended the £10 Christmas nonsense? Introduced by Heath in 72 it was the equivalent of about £160 in today’s money. With 12m people on state pension, that’s £120m saved

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 03:39 - Dec 18 with 1357 views

flykickingbybgunn

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 23:49 - Dec 17 by Churchman

I just got my £10 !!!
I'll go and buy some potatoes and sprouts.

But here is a warning for all you who think that changing the pension age from 60 to 67 or even 68 are just numbers. They are not.
As you get older you slow down. This will not surprise you.

BUT the difference between 60 and 67/8 is considerable. Human bodies were not designed to be overly active at that age. And after all, the sages tell us that 70 (three score and ten) should be it.
Yes, there are some who are lucky enough still to be fit and good for them. But on average only a few will reach 68 and still be physically active enough to work full time.
If I was in my 20's, 30's or even 40's I would be planning to stop at 60. That way you (hopefully) will have some years to enjoy yourself while you are still moderately active.

Dont rely on pensions. They may not pay out what they promise even 5 years before you collect them. Neither of ours did.

Make your own provisions that you control.

Good luck.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 06:54 - Dec 18 with 1290 views

Axeldalai_lama

Part of me wonders whether this group of people would be equally outraged if another group were affected by a change of which they had at least 15 years notice of. For example a younger group. Or whether they'd be talking about personal responsibility and that group moaning too much about life and not cutting their cloth accordingly etc etc.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:00 - Dec 18 with 1190 views

hype313

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 20:14 - Dec 17 by BanksterDebtSlave
My take away thought is that it is mildly amusing watching fans of team red excuse that which they would condemn from team blue and fans of team blue condemning team red for doing that which wouldn’t bother them if carried out by team blue. You get what you deserve suckers! [Post edited 17 Dec 2024 23:57]

I have no love for the Tories or this current lot, but I bet if the Tories did this everyone would be up in arms, shouting from the rooftops "They Lied!"

Interesting how people change their moral viewpoint on partizan lines.

Maybe I'm getting cynical in my later years, but from what I've seen in the past 30 years, I can count on one hand how many genuine, decent politicians there have been, the rest are in it for themselves and power hungry.

Once the realisation hits, it's more viewing them with humour, rather than anger.

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:18 - Dec 18 with 1135 views

flykickingbybgunn

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 06:54 - Dec 18 by Axeldalai_lama
Part of me wonders whether this group of people would be equally outraged if another group were affected by a change of which they had at least 15 years notice of. For example a younger group. Or whether they'd be talking about personal responsibility and that group moaning too much about life and not cutting their cloth accordingly etc etc.

The whole point of this discussion is that these women did not recieve any official notification of changes.
My wife and I were unaware that her pension was to be changed until she was 55.
So that instead of recieving it in 5 years time at 60 she had to wait until 65 which then became 67. 12 years on.

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:46 - Dec 18 with 1095 views

DJR

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:18 - Dec 18 by flykickingbybgunn
The whole point of this discussion is that these women did not recieve any official notification of changes. My wife and I were unaware that her pension was to be changed until she was 55. So that instead of recieving it in 5 years time at 60 she had to wait until 65 which then became 67. 12 years on.

This is not meant as criticism of you or your wife, but I am surprised not more people knew about the changes.

The changes were put in place by the Pensions Act 1995, and I was aware of them at the time, even though I am not a woman, not least because they were pretty controversial. The changes also included a subsequent rise in the 65 age for receiving the state pension. Although the latter didn't affect me, I thought it was a slippery slope.

To me, the real injustice was the acceleration in increase in both women's and men's pension age by the Pensions Act 2011, and I now have to wait until I am 66 to get my state pension.

In my view, there is a case for compensating those women affected by that acceleration (probably those born in a two or three year period around 1954) because such women may well have planned on the basis of the original timetable. But that is an issue that the ombudsman did not (and probably couldn't) discuss, given this was the will of Parliament.

More generally, section 3 of the following shows the private pension wealth of men and women born between 1942 and 1966 by age and sex. It is not clear to me that people in their 20s or 30s (or even 40s) now will on average build up that sort of private pension to make up for receiving a pension at 68 or even older.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/analysis-relating-to-state-pension-ag

EDIT: I am misremembering. It was the Pensions Act 2007 which provided for the increase in the pension age to 68, and the 2011 Act which accelerated that and caught me.

[Post edited 18 Dec 2024 14:28]

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:52 - Dec 18 with 1081 views

Pinewoodblue

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:18 - Dec 18 by flykickingbybgunn
The whole point of this discussion is that these women did not recieve any official notification of changes. My wife and I were unaware that her pension was to be changed until she was 55. So that instead of recieving it in 5 years time at 60 she had to wait until 65 which then became 67. 12 years on.

Some reading material.

https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/publications/womens-state-pension-age-our-findings-

Personally I find it hard to accept that a significant number of people were unaware of the changes, first notification of which was 30 years ago.

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So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 10:00 - Dec 18 with 1057 views

Axeldalai_lama

So what's the Twtd view on Waspi women? on 09:18 - Dec 18 by flykickingbybgunn
The whole point of this discussion is that these women did not recieve any official notification of changes. My wife and I were unaware that her pension was to be changed until she was 55. So that instead of recieving it in 5 years time at 60 she had to wait until 65 which then became 67. 12 years on.

I suppose my point was that the information wasn't hidden and was available if really sought out, which is why I was wondering if they would call a different generation lacking in planning, life skills and such if a similar thing happened to them.

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