| We are too lightweight 06:54 - Mar 9 with 6182 views | Blue_In_Boston |
Can't complain about the effort and endeavour yesterday, we were just beaten (again) by a more physically powerful team.
In League 1 we had possession, neat on the ground football and used skill rather than muscle, that confidence and method see us through the Championship. In the Premier League our possession has dropped off, certainly in the areas where we can hurt teams. Much of that is down to strength and size - my Dad always says a good big 'un will beat a good small 'un ninety percent of the time. |  | | |  |
| We are too lightweight on 15:22 - Mar 9 with 1426 views | NeedhamChris |
| We are too lightweight on 15:08 - Mar 9 by Herbivore |
Leicester and Saints both strengthened in the summer and we're ahead of both of them. That would support the idea that we are also stronger given we're ahead of them both in the table. Sheffield United were terrible last season and look likely to bounce straight back up, the Gulf between the two divisions is huge. We will rightly be one of the favourites to bounce back up it we go down. |
I agree with your points on Sheffield United and Southampton.
I don't fully understand why people think we are ahead of Leicester, I think we will finish a few points below them by the time the season is done.
They have destroyed themselves though with a crazy appointment mid season. With Steve Cooper they finish above us [Post edited 9 Mar 15:23]
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| We are too lightweight on 15:31 - Mar 9 with 1375 views | Herbivore |
| We are too lightweight on 15:22 - Mar 9 by NeedhamChris |
I agree with your points on Sheffield United and Southampton.
I don't fully understand why people think we are ahead of Leicester, I think we will finish a few points below them by the time the season is done.
They have destroyed themselves though with a crazy appointment mid season. With Steve Cooper they finish above us [Post edited 9 Mar 15:23]
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People think we're ahead of Leicester because we're ahead of Leicester I imagine. That's a firmer basis than hypotheticals after nearly 30 games of the season. |  |
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| We are too lightweight on 15:45 - Mar 9 with 1344 views | Nutkins_Return |
| We are too lightweight on 15:22 - Mar 9 by NeedhamChris |
I agree with your points on Sheffield United and Southampton.
I don't fully understand why people think we are ahead of Leicester, I think we will finish a few points below them by the time the season is done.
They have destroyed themselves though with a crazy appointment mid season. With Steve Cooper they finish above us [Post edited 9 Mar 15:23]
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Leicester are awful. They've not been able to spend anything. They were ahead of us in the champ but have really not added to their champ team much if at all. In fact lost their key player Dewsbury hall. They are in massive trouble when they go down as likely facing points deduction in the champ and money issues.
Absolutely baffled by people thinking we will be mid table next year. We are still playing and competing very well in the Prem but falling just short in matches. We are much stronger this year then last year. The step up is just huge. I think people have looked at Luton and panicked. Completely different scenario. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 16:01 - Mar 9 with 1298 views | NeedhamChris |
| We are too lightweight on 15:45 - Mar 9 by Nutkins_Return |
Leicester are awful. They've not been able to spend anything. They were ahead of us in the champ but have really not added to their champ team much if at all. In fact lost their key player Dewsbury hall. They are in massive trouble when they go down as likely facing points deduction in the champ and money issues.
Absolutely baffled by people thinking we will be mid table next year. We are still playing and competing very well in the Prem but falling just short in matches. We are much stronger this year then last year. The step up is just huge. I think people have looked at Luton and panicked. Completely different scenario. |
This is the narrative re: Leicester I don't understand.
You're right that they hardly added anything (and lost a key player). Whereas we've spent over £100m.
You say they're "awful", yet they have the same number of points as we do.
Did we really spend all that money to be 5 goals better off than them? | |
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| We are too lightweight on 16:32 - Mar 9 with 1252 views | olimar |
| We are too lightweight on 08:40 - Mar 9 by DinnernotTea |
McKenna's obsession with "British academy players" has killed us. They're by and large crap in the Prem hence every single line up we face is 75% overseas pretty much.
You also end up paying £62m for Hutch, Philogene & J.Clarke instead of £12.5m for a Sarr. |
The blueprint was more about looking for players with a.) good potential who could be developed to improve their value (given that we have one of the best coaches in the country) b.) were british based, so they didnt need to settle into the country and would be familiar with the style of football.
Both of those make perfect sense given that we had to bring in such a high number of players (arguably more so than most promoted sides) and we needed them to settle in as quickly as possible.
The only way to do that is therefore to sign those with high potential in the Championship or in PL academies etc. Which is basically what we did.
Suggesting that british academies somehow dont produce players with a physicality that suits where they are going to play doesnt make much sense- why would they do it? Greaves, O'Shea, Townsend, Phillips, Delap dont look like they are lacking in physicality, whereas players like Omari, Enciso, Philogene are hardly any different physically to players like Nwaneri, Amad Diallo etc that pop up in similar positions. | | | |
| We are too lightweight on 16:45 - Mar 9 with 1232 views | olimar |
| We are too lightweight on 12:30 - Mar 9 by SaffronWaldenBlues |
Based on what? Clarke, Philogene, Greaves, Palmer , Szmodics and Co were not even in sides that finished above us last season. Muric and O’Shea might be okay in the Championship but they’re nowhere near good enough to play in the top flight. It’s going to be another season of adjustments. We bought poorly, we won’t have Phillips, Cajuste or Delap either, and those are the three along with Hutchinson that are actually good enough to play in the league above.
There’s going to be a lot of surprised people next season when they realise what a battle the Championship really is. |
What relevance has where their teams finished? We all know that ITFC 23-24 was an amazing story of a team which was greater than the sum of its parts, so logically there are plenty of other parts whos teams werent as good as them.
Greaves, Clarke, Philogene, Szmodics were clearly far better than most playing in their positions in the Championship in 23-24.
Pretty sure most ITFC fans remember exactly how hard the Championship is to get out of- last season was hardly a walk in the park. | | | |
| We are too lightweight on 17:37 - Mar 9 with 1166 views | DinnernotTea |
| We are too lightweight on 16:32 - Mar 9 by olimar |
The blueprint was more about looking for players with a.) good potential who could be developed to improve their value (given that we have one of the best coaches in the country) b.) were british based, so they didnt need to settle into the country and would be familiar with the style of football.
Both of those make perfect sense given that we had to bring in such a high number of players (arguably more so than most promoted sides) and we needed them to settle in as quickly as possible.
The only way to do that is therefore to sign those with high potential in the Championship or in PL academies etc. Which is basically what we did.
Suggesting that british academies somehow dont produce players with a physicality that suits where they are going to play doesnt make much sense- why would they do it? Greaves, O'Shea, Townsend, Phillips, Delap dont look like they are lacking in physicality, whereas players like Omari, Enciso, Philogene are hardly any different physically to players like Nwaneri, Amad Diallo etc that pop up in similar positions. |
Not a single football club has followed this model in the history of promoted sides. Not to the obsession degrees we have.
It reeks of limp, lazy and pathetic recruitment. Forest had actually been out of the Prem longer than us but found themselves in Year 1 of their Prem journey finding good players abroad. The year is 2025 with now on average just 35% of the Prem eligible to play for England. There is a clear reason for this and we're seeing it.
To suggest we couldn't find players abroad to play for this football club IN THE PREM is outrageous. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 17:51 - Mar 9 with 1134 views | olimar |
| We are too lightweight on 17:37 - Mar 9 by DinnernotTea |
Not a single football club has followed this model in the history of promoted sides. Not to the obsession degrees we have.
It reeks of limp, lazy and pathetic recruitment. Forest had actually been out of the Prem longer than us but found themselves in Year 1 of their Prem journey finding good players abroad. The year is 2025 with now on average just 35% of the Prem eligible to play for England. There is a clear reason for this and we're seeing it.
To suggest we couldn't find players abroad to play for this football club IN THE PREM is outrageous. |
Forest had been in the Championship for about 15 years before they won promotion. With an exisiting squad, scouting network and were part of a multi-club ownership model.
Ipswich had none of those things.
Its easy to look at Forest in 3rd place in the league and draw a lazy conclusion that we basically should have done the same, but if we had signed 20+ players in the summer, many of whom had never played in the PL, many on short term contracts that would all leave on relegation, at such huge amounts that we would seemingly break the rules, youd have been saying that it was reckless and stupid.
Especially if it didnt work- which it very nearly didnt at Forest.
I dont see many other particularly successful models in recent years, except those who manage to regroup back in the championship. | | | |
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| We are too lightweight on 19:04 - Mar 9 with 1096 views | DinnernotTea |
| We are too lightweight on 17:51 - Mar 9 by olimar |
Forest had been in the Championship for about 15 years before they won promotion. With an exisiting squad, scouting network and were part of a multi-club ownership model.
Ipswich had none of those things.
Its easy to look at Forest in 3rd place in the league and draw a lazy conclusion that we basically should have done the same, but if we had signed 20+ players in the summer, many of whom had never played in the PL, many on short term contracts that would all leave on relegation, at such huge amounts that we would seemingly break the rules, youd have been saying that it was reckless and stupid.
Especially if it didnt work- which it very nearly didnt at Forest.
I dont see many other particularly successful models in recent years, except those who manage to regroup back in the championship. |
I never said we should have done the same, I've said countless times we shouldn't have gone all British and used Forest as an example they didn't do that either. 3 league wins all season proves me right.
I just find it really odd how anyone can defend the two transfer windows since we became a Premier League club. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 19:30 - Mar 9 with 1063 views | itfcsuth |
I think there is truth to that, but mainly in that front line behind Delap.
J.Clarke & J.Philogene look about six stone wet through. |  | | |
| We are too lightweight on 20:01 - Mar 9 with 1018 views | FrimleyBlue |
| We are too lightweight on 19:04 - Mar 9 by DinnernotTea |
I never said we should have done the same, I've said countless times we shouldn't have gone all British and used Forest as an example they didn't do that either. 3 league wins all season proves me right.
I just find it really odd how anyone can defend the two transfer windows since we became a Premier League club. |
The part I find odd is when people say it was obvious we wouldn't be able to attract any solid prem experienced players of certain qualities to join a relegation favourite.
Did I imagine it that in the summer we signed what most town fans and many pundits claim as one of the brightest young managers in the game on a new 5 year deal after, a double promotion. Solid finances and partway through an exciting project.. yet we are told we could ONLY attract the championships top stat leaders...
For me at least that makes no sense and why I don't believe for a second that we entered the summer window with the intent of attacking survival but more than it may happen if other clubs get point deductions and we get a bit of luck. So we just concentrated on young players who could either be sold for profit after year 1 or be involved in years 2 and 3 and 4. |  |
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| We are too lightweight on 20:02 - Mar 9 with 1025 views | Nutkins_Return |
| We are too lightweight on 16:01 - Mar 9 by NeedhamChris |
This is the narrative re: Leicester I don't understand.
You're right that they hardly added anything (and lost a key player). Whereas we've spent over £100m.
You say they're "awful", yet they have the same number of points as we do.
Did we really spend all that money to be 5 goals better off than them? |
'awful' is hyperbole to be fair. To be a bit more rational on it I think Leicester have more points then their performances deserve. Numerous chunks of fortune and knocking late points (I know not really a bad trait) where they have been poor in games. The shambles of the no pen and red card in 10 seconds against us is a 4 point points swing in itself....
Worse for them is they are getting worse. Vardy 38 is still there talisman and around him you having aging forwards like Ayew and Reid. They are facing points deduction next season and their manager is out of his depth. (Next to no points since he came in and all were as part of initial bounce really).
Conversely I actually think Southampton have played better with less points. Like us really. Just as a club I think Leicester are in a bad trajectory right now. We've overtaken both and if I'm honest I think both had better players than us last season. McKenna was our ace card. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 20:25 - Mar 9 with 980 views | Herbivore |
| We are too lightweight on 20:01 - Mar 9 by FrimleyBlue |
The part I find odd is when people say it was obvious we wouldn't be able to attract any solid prem experienced players of certain qualities to join a relegation favourite.
Did I imagine it that in the summer we signed what most town fans and many pundits claim as one of the brightest young managers in the game on a new 5 year deal after, a double promotion. Solid finances and partway through an exciting project.. yet we are told we could ONLY attract the championships top stat leaders...
For me at least that makes no sense and why I don't believe for a second that we entered the summer window with the intent of attacking survival but more than it may happen if other clubs get point deductions and we get a bit of luck. So we just concentrated on young players who could either be sold for profit after year 1 or be involved in years 2 and 3 and 4. |
I'm not sure I follow your logic here, Frimmers. You seem to be saying that because we managed to convince McKenna to stay with a new contract then we should also have been able to sign established Prem players. You need to show your working on this one because, on the surface of it, us being able to keep our manager here doesn't seem to have much to do with our ability to attract and afford established Prem players. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 20:30 - Mar 9 with 955 views | portmanking |
| We are too lightweight on 20:02 - Mar 9 by Nutkins_Return |
'awful' is hyperbole to be fair. To be a bit more rational on it I think Leicester have more points then their performances deserve. Numerous chunks of fortune and knocking late points (I know not really a bad trait) where they have been poor in games. The shambles of the no pen and red card in 10 seconds against us is a 4 point points swing in itself....
Worse for them is they are getting worse. Vardy 38 is still there talisman and around him you having aging forwards like Ayew and Reid. They are facing points deduction next season and their manager is out of his depth. (Next to no points since he came in and all were as part of initial bounce really).
Conversely I actually think Southampton have played better with less points. Like us really. Just as a club I think Leicester are in a bad trajectory right now. We've overtaken both and if I'm honest I think both had better players than us last season. McKenna was our ace card. |
Nailed it. We're going down with Leicester, who'll be a basket case next season, and Saints whose squad will need major surgery compared with ours.
If Leeds, Sheff Utd and Burnley go up, we could hardly have asked for a better division. The rebuild of our double pivots will be the crucial move. If you could get say, Downes and one other (possibly a big, rangy box-to-box midfielder) that would stand us in great stead.
Another like-for-like replacement for Hirst too, since Delap is nothing like him and is a major contributor to the poor link-up play across our three 10s IMO. | | | |
| We are too lightweight on 07:27 - Mar 10 with 784 views | rfretwell |
| We are too lightweight on 10:35 - Mar 9 by Smoresy |
Only half the issue IMO.
We had loads of physicality in the Championship, as an aside; fans of opposing teams hated us for it. They weren't powerful.by PL standards though and our attacking reinforcements are largely weak, with the exception of the powerhouse up top.
Something that is talked about much less is how imprecise we are with the majority of our attacking play, compared to other teams at this level. Balls played behind teammates, left too short, hitting the defender, the wrong passes altogether, insufficient skill to deceive the defender, soft or wayward crosses.. sure we're muscled off it plenty too, but we also lack the attacking quality right now to make and take chances in the limited space and time that is afforded to you in this league. |
Hutchinson looks like he is learning to use his body to win balls, hold off defenders a la Delap. See his shoulder charge late on in Palaces 18 yard box which won him the ball from a defender. Also Hurst looks like he is trying to when he comes on though not with the success Delap has. | | | |
| We are too lightweight on 08:01 - Mar 10 with 739 views | Herbivore |
| We are too lightweight on 20:30 - Mar 9 by portmanking |
Nailed it. We're going down with Leicester, who'll be a basket case next season, and Saints whose squad will need major surgery compared with ours.
If Leeds, Sheff Utd and Burnley go up, we could hardly have asked for a better division. The rebuild of our double pivots will be the crucial move. If you could get say, Downes and one other (possibly a big, rangy box-to-box midfielder) that would stand us in great stead.
Another like-for-like replacement for Hirst too, since Delap is nothing like him and is a major contributor to the poor link-up play across our three 10s IMO. |
I think it's harsh to make that assessment of Delap being at fault for the lack of contribution and cohesiveness amongst our number 10s. I think there's two bigger issues that make it hard to judge the impact Delap has on their performances. The first is that we aren't as effective at winning the ball high up the pitch as we were in the last two seasons because the opposition are so much better at keeping it under pressure, that means the quick transitions we used to manage, that were a hallmark of our attacking play over the last two years, are less frequent and give less opportunities to our 10s to shine. The other is that at no point this season have we had a settled three behind the striker. Broadhead, Chaplin, Szmodics, Burns, Ogbene, and Enciso have all missed decent chunks of the season with injury. Hutchinson has had a few shorter absences too. Philogene only joined in January and Clarke has struggled for form.
Hirst also had 18 months of Broadhead, Chaplin, and Burns playing consistently off him with Hutchinson rotating in as we and he progressed. It's much easier to build an understanding when you're playing every week with the same players, it's much harder when there is (usually enforced) changes to the line up every week. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 08:32 - Mar 10 with 705 views | NeedhamChris |
| We are too lightweight on 20:30 - Mar 9 by portmanking |
Nailed it. We're going down with Leicester, who'll be a basket case next season, and Saints whose squad will need major surgery compared with ours.
If Leeds, Sheff Utd and Burnley go up, we could hardly have asked for a better division. The rebuild of our double pivots will be the crucial move. If you could get say, Downes and one other (possibly a big, rangy box-to-box midfielder) that would stand us in great stead.
Another like-for-like replacement for Hirst too, since Delap is nothing like him and is a major contributor to the poor link-up play across our three 10s IMO. |
I'm not suggesting it was easy - but not bringing in an Ioannidis type striker is what has killed us (in my view).
Well, that and not adding a Downes type in January. That loss against Southampton likely cost us more than just those three points. | |
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| We are too lightweight on 08:49 - Mar 10 with 676 views | portmanking |
| We are too lightweight on 08:01 - Mar 10 by Herbivore |
I think it's harsh to make that assessment of Delap being at fault for the lack of contribution and cohesiveness amongst our number 10s. I think there's two bigger issues that make it hard to judge the impact Delap has on their performances. The first is that we aren't as effective at winning the ball high up the pitch as we were in the last two seasons because the opposition are so much better at keeping it under pressure, that means the quick transitions we used to manage, that were a hallmark of our attacking play over the last two years, are less frequent and give less opportunities to our 10s to shine. The other is that at no point this season have we had a settled three behind the striker. Broadhead, Chaplin, Szmodics, Burns, Ogbene, and Enciso have all missed decent chunks of the season with injury. Hutchinson has had a few shorter absences too. Philogene only joined in January and Clarke has struggled for form.
Hirst also had 18 months of Broadhead, Chaplin, and Burns playing consistently off him with Hutchinson rotating in as we and he progressed. It's much easier to build an understanding when you're playing every week with the same players, it's much harder when there is (usually enforced) changes to the line up every week. |
It's just not Delap's game though, is it? He's not a link man. His back to goal play is pretty horrendous still and certainly the one area of his game which needs serious work if he's to play the lone role for a club like Chelsea.
There were 3-4 times on Saturday when Delap had done well to roll his marker and could've played in one of the 10s, but opted to take an ulta-low xG attempt on himself, which will have irritated McKenna.
Hirst's selflessness in the #9 role is what made our 3x #10s shine, IMO. | | | |
| We are too lightweight on 08:52 - Mar 10 with 656 views | itfcjoe |
| We are too lightweight on 20:30 - Mar 9 by portmanking |
Nailed it. We're going down with Leicester, who'll be a basket case next season, and Saints whose squad will need major surgery compared with ours.
If Leeds, Sheff Utd and Burnley go up, we could hardly have asked for a better division. The rebuild of our double pivots will be the crucial move. If you could get say, Downes and one other (possibly a big, rangy box-to-box midfielder) that would stand us in great stead.
Another like-for-like replacement for Hirst too, since Delap is nothing like him and is a major contributor to the poor link-up play across our three 10s IMO. |
I think a bit harsh on Delap, and actually felt on Saturday was one of first games we were able to get people closer to him and he held it up well in the main.
But the crux of the post is totally correct - we did the best we could, we had to balance not jeapordising the future of the club with giving it as good a shot as possible at staying up.
It hasn't worked, but I look at Leicester and Saints, who are the only realistic contenders we had in the market and who they signed and you can see that these mythical 'foreign' signings, or 'PL experienced' players just don't really exist in an area we can recruit in.
Stepping into the PL is not easy, whether from the Championship or abroad - most who recruit abroad still need to let those players have a year or so to settle in - we didn't have that time |  |
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| We are too lightweight on 08:58 - Mar 10 with 611 views | NthQldITFC |
| We are too lightweight on 10:56 - Mar 9 by Smoresy |
We're digging in hard on the pitch though, that's pretty obvious. |
...and the total lack of bitching at each other (on the pitch) whilst picking each other up when we make a mistake (on the pitch) and running ourselves into the ground (on the pitch) also back that up (on the pitch). |  |
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