By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
The Kremlin statement reads that a key stipulation for "preventing the escalation of the conflict and working toward its resolution" should be "the complete cessation of foreign military aid and sharing intelligence with Kyiv".
All part of the process of surrender and subjugation that is under way. Ukraine is lost. Putin has gained everything and more besides. He’s also trampled all over Trump. That was assured from the moment Trump changed sides and agreed to the Dictators demands up front. From the BBC:
‘Vladimir Putin’s phone call with Donald Trump is a "power play" from the Russian president, who’s "not in a hurry" and “is in charge of this situation”, according to former Trump Russia adviser Fiona Hill. Speaking to the BBC’s Ukrainecast podcast, Hill, who served on the National Security Council as an advisor on Russia under President Trump, said: "the US has offered him a great deal, actually, already it seems. And he's in no mood to make any major concessions." Pressed on whether an energy and infrastructure ceasefire was a concession, Hill said: "this is a kind of concession that Putin always makes... Putin's idea of a negotiation is to start a fight with you, beat the crap out of you and then say, he's going to stop beating you."
Politicians will run around now and try and dress this up as a victory for peace. Not if you are Ukrainian. All that bravery to defend their country from an invader for nothing. Betrayed. I feel so sorry for the people.
6
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:05 - Mar 18 with 2612 views
It was lost the day Obama shat himself over Crimea. He talked about red lines but bottled it. Similar when Putin went into Syria. Obama basically just wagged his finger at Putin, that empowered him. Once he went into Ukraine the only chance the world had was for the US/NATO to send in troops, nobody wanted that as it ends up in WW3. Now we have a situation where Ukraine is running out of troops, Russia is gradually increasing the land in holds. Again the only option is for US/NATO is send in troops, it won't happen, Putin knows that and he knows he holds the cards.
0
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:16 - Mar 18 with 2547 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:05 - Mar 18 by mellowblue
Sadly Putin is holding all the best cards. Does not look good for Ukraine.
Why do you think pootin wants all aid stopped? He is losing men and material hand over fist for what?minor gains in the last three years as soon as Ukraine got themselves sorted out! Oil refineries , factories and airfields being attacked! Yeah he holds all the cards🙄
0
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:21 - Mar 18 with 2469 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:05 - Mar 18 by mellowblue
Sadly Putin is holding all the best cards. Does not look good for Ukraine.
Trump handed them to him. The war was damaging Russia long term economically. The deaths didn’t matter a jot. Putin never cared about killing. However, with an economy the size of Russia’s it could only support all this with outside help (China) that came at a price.
Yes, Trump has given Russia total victory. I am sure the orange baboon will be rewarded with medals, honours and loot - which was all he was ever after in the first place.
The only reason Putin is interested in a long range weapons ceasefire was because it didn’t make the great man look good if things kept blowing up.
1
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:22 - Mar 18 with 2462 views
I basically finished a response to this and acidentally deleted it.
I would argue that the cessatation of attacks on energy an instrastucture in isolation is not a concession: • From listening to the daily summary of attacks on Ukraine I believe (but don't have data) that Russia did a bit of a weapons dump on Ukraine in preparation to this. • It is likely they focused on Kursk and infraestructure in the build up so they didn't have to talk about swapping territory and they didn't have to have the cessation of infraestructure attacks impact their short-term strategic objectives. • Around this time of year (end of winter) the attacks from Russia on energy and infraestructure have lessoned due to their lower impact (less energy being used at this time of year). • Ukraine over roughly the last two months have been more successful in stopping attacks coming through, notably less deaths and successful Russian strikes (bar when US stopped intelligence sharing). • Russia has also fired more and more decoy drones. Analysts suggest this is a sign of supplychain/production problems due to Ukraine's own infraestructure strikes.
The timing of this could well be more of an advatage to Russian than Ukraine. It would just allow Russia to resupply where it is struggling, stop further attacks where it is demonstrating vulnerability, and allow it to press on with fewer distrations to where it is have success (clearing dug in positions by dropping chemical weapons in trenches via drones and flushing defenders out).
Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top.
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:21 - Mar 18 by Churchman
Trump handed them to him. The war was damaging Russia long term economically. The deaths didn’t matter a jot. Putin never cared about killing. However, with an economy the size of Russia’s it could only support all this with outside help (China) that came at a price.
Yes, Trump has given Russia total victory. I am sure the orange baboon will be rewarded with medals, honours and loot - which was all he was ever after in the first place.
The only reason Putin is interested in a long range weapons ceasefire was because it didn’t make the great man look good if things kept blowing up.
Trump will definitely have a few palaces to pick from in Russia when his term is up.
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:47 - Mar 18 by TractorWood
Trump will definitely have a few palaces to pick from in Russia when his term is up.
Far too early to reach any conclusions on any of this, save for the obvious one, which is that Putin has no interest in peace, negotiation or cease fire except entirely on his terms.
Neither Europe nor Ukraine can take the terms being suggested.
Now we will have absolute proof of Trump's position. Does he say that Putin is not ready for peace, or does he push capitulation as if it were fair.
I fear the latter.
1
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 22:11 - Mar 18 with 2206 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:56 - Mar 18 by redrickstuhaart
Far too early to reach any conclusions on any of this, save for the obvious one, which is that Putin has no interest in peace, negotiation or cease fire except entirely on his terms.
Neither Europe nor Ukraine can take the terms being suggested.
Now we will have absolute proof of Trump's position. Does he say that Putin is not ready for peace, or does he push capitulation as if it were fair.
I fear the latter.
One paragraph from The Economist take on things says it all
, As for a lasting peace, Russia said any agreement should be “comprehensive, sustainable and long-term” and should “eliminate the root causes of the crisis” as well as preserve “Russia’s legitimate interests in the area of security”. That is Kremlin-speak for limiting Ukraine’s sovereignty, enforcing its neutrality and, ideally, pushing NATO out of eastern Europe. Critically, Mr Putin emphasised the idea of “a Ukrainian settlement in a bilateral mode”, seemingly meaning one negotiated by America and Russia over the heads of Ukraine and European countries.
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:56 - Mar 18 by redrickstuhaart
Far too early to reach any conclusions on any of this, save for the obvious one, which is that Putin has no interest in peace, negotiation or cease fire except entirely on his terms.
Neither Europe nor Ukraine can take the terms being suggested.
Now we will have absolute proof of Trump's position. Does he say that Putin is not ready for peace, or does he push capitulation as if it were fair.
I fear the latter.
Trump will spin this into Ukraines fault for no ceasefire,you can see it coming and he will use this to stop all aid again!
1
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:29 - Mar 19 with 1806 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 22:11 - Mar 18 by Pinewoodblue
One paragraph from The Economist take on things says it all
, As for a lasting peace, Russia said any agreement should be “comprehensive, sustainable and long-term” and should “eliminate the root causes of the crisis” as well as preserve “Russia’s legitimate interests in the area of security”. That is Kremlin-speak for limiting Ukraine’s sovereignty, enforcing its neutrality and, ideally, pushing NATO out of eastern Europe. Critically, Mr Putin emphasised the idea of “a Ukrainian settlement in a bilateral mode”, seemingly meaning one negotiated by America and Russia over the heads of Ukraine and European countries.
How do you read that?
I see it as a return to the old Soviet spheres of influence - Balkans, Poland (Russia has never viewed that as a country) and the Baltic states. Is that Eastern Europe? I think so. Germany is really Central Europe and I don’t think that’s within Putin’s grasp yet. Finland? Obviously no protection for them. Russia has always viewed it as theirs. Maybe a trade off with Sweden?
The speculation on my part is purely that. I’ve no idea. But if I was Putin, those would be my objectives. He knows NATO is finished and Europe will get zero support from America - and he’s in a race against time. Countries strengthening and his own age, fit though he is.
The alternative is to take Ukraine - let’s face it, Trumps handed it to them. Bilateral mode = territory carve up.. Then work on the others inside out. Put his people into those countries just as he did Ukraine’s so called disputed territory, and either rescue them from trumped up persecution or rig elections.
As I say, purely speculation on my part, most of it based on what dictators always do and on Trump only being interested in personal gain. He claims he wants to stop the killing. Well, he doesn’t seem too bothered about the people of Gaza being wiped out. In fact he actively threatened them. Then there’s the people in Africa being killed in horrific conflicts there. Bet he’d be interested if there was plunder to be had.
0
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:31 - Mar 19 with 1797 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 21:21 - Mar 18 by Churchman
Trump handed them to him. The war was damaging Russia long term economically. The deaths didn’t matter a jot. Putin never cared about killing. However, with an economy the size of Russia’s it could only support all this with outside help (China) that came at a price.
Yes, Trump has given Russia total victory. I am sure the orange baboon will be rewarded with medals, honours and loot - which was all he was ever after in the first place.
The only reason Putin is interested in a long range weapons ceasefire was because it didn’t make the great man look good if things kept blowing up.
Just to clarify, the proposal is for a 30-day ceasefire on "energy infrastructure", not "energy and infrastructure", so Russia could continue to bomb any other targets (including civilians) during this period..
Pretty irrelevant, as Russia seems to have continued anyway...
Putin isn't making a concession, he's making a demand that will be of more benefit to Russia than Ukraine; one of the few strengths left to Ukraine is attacking Russian energy, the major source of their income at a time when most of the world is putting economic pressure on them through sanctions. Russia are looking for 30 days of ramped up oil and gas production without having to fear attack on those industries, and expecting Ukraine to stop accepting foreign aid and military assistance / intelligence in return.
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:31 - Mar 19 by BlueBoots
Just to clarify, the proposal is for a 30-day ceasefire on "energy infrastructure", not "energy and infrastructure", so Russia could continue to bomb any other targets (including civilians) during this period..
Pretty irrelevant, as Russia seems to have continued anyway...
Putin isn't making a concession, he's making a demand that will be of more benefit to Russia than Ukraine; one of the few strengths left to Ukraine is attacking Russian energy, the major source of their income at a time when most of the world is putting economic pressure on them through sanctions. Russia are looking for 30 days of ramped up oil and gas production without having to fear attack on those industries, and expecting Ukraine to stop accepting foreign aid and military assistance / intelligence in return.
[Post edited 19 Mar 17:36]
So the one way Ukraine can hurt Putin is taken away from them while Putin can continue to smash Ukraine at will while the latter is starved of any support. Yep, sounds a fair arrangement. For Putin and indeed for his best mate Trump.
0
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:55 - Mar 19 with 1709 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:41 - Mar 19 by Churchman
So the one way Ukraine can hurt Putin is taken away from them while Putin can continue to smash Ukraine at will while the latter is starved of any support. Yep, sounds a fair arrangement. For Putin and indeed for his best mate Trump.
Possibly another condition of the ceasefire? Destroying evidence that could be used to bring charges of war crimes; it's an open secret that Putin has some kind of hold over Trump which puts them on "friendly" terms.
Haven't heard any noises yet from the US trying to spin it as a good deal, but the world can see this is a terrible deal not just for Ukraine, but for future world peace.
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:29 - Mar 19 by Churchman
How do you read that?
I see it as a return to the old Soviet spheres of influence - Balkans, Poland (Russia has never viewed that as a country) and the Baltic states. Is that Eastern Europe? I think so. Germany is really Central Europe and I don’t think that’s within Putin’s grasp yet. Finland? Obviously no protection for them. Russia has always viewed it as theirs. Maybe a trade off with Sweden?
The speculation on my part is purely that. I’ve no idea. But if I was Putin, those would be my objectives. He knows NATO is finished and Europe will get zero support from America - and he’s in a race against time. Countries strengthening and his own age, fit though he is.
The alternative is to take Ukraine - let’s face it, Trumps handed it to them. Bilateral mode = territory carve up.. Then work on the others inside out. Put his people into those countries just as he did Ukraine’s so called disputed territory, and either rescue them from trumped up persecution or rig elections.
As I say, purely speculation on my part, most of it based on what dictators always do and on Trump only being interested in personal gain. He claims he wants to stop the killing. Well, he doesn’t seem too bothered about the people of Gaza being wiped out. In fact he actively threatened them. Then there’s the people in Africa being killed in horrific conflicts there. Bet he’d be interested if there was plunder to be had.
In my view Trump has no intention of securing a just resolution of the Ukraine conflict, he just wants to be able to say he settled it. Putin seeks to re-establish a protective layer of subservient states between Russia & Western Europe.
The two are looking to divide the world into areas of influence, a world where Trump turns a blind eye to anything Putin does.
They want to resolve matters between them, excluding Ukraine , EU, NATO from having any say.
It doesn’t look good for Ukraine, the root cause that Putin talks of is the fact they exist as an independent Country.
Possibly another condition of the ceasefire? Destroying evidence that could be used to bring charges of war crimes; it's an open secret that Putin has some kind of hold over Trump which puts them on "friendly" terms.
Haven't heard any noises yet from the US trying to spin it as a good deal, but the world can see this is a terrible deal not just for Ukraine, but for future world peace.
I think war crimes charges are already in the bin. The only people that care about that are victims families and Ukraine in general. Trump has declared VZ a dictator and Ukraine for starting the war so any war crimes sit with them - and assuming VZ isn’t killed he will be standing trial in Moscow accordingly.
Ukrainian children? Saved from an evil dictator VZ.
Trump and Putin talked about an US Russia Ice Hockey game. Should make a bob or two for them both. Nice to see they got the easy bit re booty sorted nice and quickly before discussing more important things.
0
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 08:34 - Mar 19 with 1579 views
Sawing Ukraine off at the knees on 07:29 - Mar 19 by Churchman
How do you read that?
I see it as a return to the old Soviet spheres of influence - Balkans, Poland (Russia has never viewed that as a country) and the Baltic states. Is that Eastern Europe? I think so. Germany is really Central Europe and I don’t think that’s within Putin’s grasp yet. Finland? Obviously no protection for them. Russia has always viewed it as theirs. Maybe a trade off with Sweden?
The speculation on my part is purely that. I’ve no idea. But if I was Putin, those would be my objectives. He knows NATO is finished and Europe will get zero support from America - and he’s in a race against time. Countries strengthening and his own age, fit though he is.
The alternative is to take Ukraine - let’s face it, Trumps handed it to them. Bilateral mode = territory carve up.. Then work on the others inside out. Put his people into those countries just as he did Ukraine’s so called disputed territory, and either rescue them from trumped up persecution or rig elections.
As I say, purely speculation on my part, most of it based on what dictators always do and on Trump only being interested in personal gain. He claims he wants to stop the killing. Well, he doesn’t seem too bothered about the people of Gaza being wiped out. In fact he actively threatened them. Then there’s the people in Africa being killed in horrific conflicts there. Bet he’d be interested if there was plunder to be had.
If you think Finland will just roll over I suggest you revisit your World War Two history books. And this time with the United Kingdom and Finland as allies we would be even stronger.
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
