| This Unite the Kingdom march 11:51 - Sep 13 with 16920 views | noggin |
Any of you 'football lads' there? |  |
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| This Unite the Kingdom march on 19:51 - Sep 14 with 1330 views | EdwardStone |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 18:36 - Sep 14 by BrentwoodBlagger2 |
Listen I have no idea. I was there to observe as I have said previously and it was very interesting to see the media lies. Frankly I couldn't give a flying **** either way. I live my life the way I want to and protect my family which is my only concern without jumping on any political bandwagon. |
So....
You are certain you are not racist...just maybe a bit racist-curious
You wanna attend a few racist events just to get a feel of how it all is, just as an observer
But you are certain that you are not in the slightest bit racist
Sure, you use a few racist tropes in your polemic, but that doesn't actually signify anything
Because you believe you are not a racist
Maybe just a bit racist-curious
That's all, just wanting to see and feel and observe......
But you didn't inhale |  | | |
| Fair as always Dubbers.... on 19:55 - Sep 14 with 1301 views | Bloots |
| This place is getting ridiculous..... on 19:31 - Sep 14 by Dubtractor |
I think im inclined to agree with this.
Mr Brentwood reckons they were there as an observer, albeit their choice of language did feel a bit loaded, so I think it's unfair to be calling them a racist without real basis for it.
I also tend to look at a posters history if my spidey senses tingle a bit, and almost all posts have been football related, which reduced the reading on my spidey meter.
I'd also add that I've seen a number of reports from left leaning blue-sky accounts (is there any other type) suggesting that there was a surprisingly diverse crowd there, even if the majority did fit the stereotype.
In itself that disappoints me more, as I simply don't understand why so many would align themselves with an event with clearly racist backers and organisers. |
....but the board is basically becoming unusable again.
Nearly every non football thread and even some of the football ones just descend into someone being called "racist" and then the usual crowd all throwing around "virtual high-fives".
It really isn't a term that should just be thrown around without good cause.
This specific "pile-on" is particularly unpleasant in my view. |  |
| "Trite Sixth-Form Politics” - TWTD User (Sept 2025) |
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| Fair as always Dubbers.... on 20:01 - Sep 14 with 1246 views | EdwardStone |
| Fair as always Dubbers.... on 19:55 - Sep 14 by Bloots |
....but the board is basically becoming unusable again.
Nearly every non football thread and even some of the football ones just descend into someone being called "racist" and then the usual crowd all throwing around "virtual high-fives".
It really isn't a term that should just be thrown around without good cause.
This specific "pile-on" is particularly unpleasant in my view. |
Or we could just normalise utterly repugnant views and pretend to ourselves that it doesn't really matter
We could resist the temptation to raise a voice against repulsive views so as not to "make a fuss"
And then see where that kind of behaviour get us..... it would probably be fine | | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 20:08 - Sep 14 with 1169 views | Bloots |
| Fair as always Dubbers.... on 20:01 - Sep 14 by EdwardStone |
Or we could just normalise utterly repugnant views and pretend to ourselves that it doesn't really matter
We could resist the temptation to raise a voice against repulsive views so as not to "make a fuss"
And then see where that kind of behaviour get us..... it would probably be fine |
....6 people relentlessly shouting at 6 other people on a 2nd tier football forum is going to correct any of the world's problems.
But ultimately it will probably just drive users away.
Anyway, I'll leave you all to it. Have fun! | |
| "Trite Sixth-Form Politics” - TWTD User (Sept 2025) |
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| Fair as always Dubbers.... on 20:11 - Sep 14 with 1152 views | Tonytown |
| Fair as always Dubbers.... on 19:55 - Sep 14 by Bloots |
....but the board is basically becoming unusable again.
Nearly every non football thread and even some of the football ones just descend into someone being called "racist" and then the usual crowd all throwing around "virtual high-fives".
It really isn't a term that should just be thrown around without good cause.
This specific "pile-on" is particularly unpleasant in my view. |
That’s utter nonsense. Give your head a wobble |  | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 20:27 - Sep 14 with 1061 views | Tonytown |
| I very much doubt that.... on 20:08 - Sep 14 by Bloots |
....6 people relentlessly shouting at 6 other people on a 2nd tier football forum is going to correct any of the world's problems.
But ultimately it will probably just drive users away.
Anyway, I'll leave you all to it. Have fun! |
You sound like Neville Chamberlain, say nothing do nothing
You’re part of the problem | | | |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 20:39 - Sep 14 with 998 views | DJR |
I've mentioned before that misinformation and ignorance plays a big part in attitudes to immigration and came across the following in an article in today's Observer.
"It is known in Whitehall as the “chicken nugget debacle”. An Albanian criminal had supposedly avoided deportation because his son disliked foreign chicken nuggets.
Kemi Badenoch cited the widely reported case as an example of how the European convention on human rights (ECHR) “is weaponised by those who wish to erode our national identity and border security”. Nigel Farage said: “You read this stuff and you just want to cry.”
Except it never happened. There was no ruling that the foreign offender should be allowed to stay in Britain because his child was a picky eater. An immigration tribunal did initially decide that it would be “unduly harsh” for the boy to be sent to Albania because of his special educational needs, but this judgment was later overturned. A more senior judge rejected the man’s appeal and made absolutely clear that an aversion to chicken nuggets should never be enough to prevent deportation.
This was not an isolated case. There was the Iranian criminal “spared deportation so he can cut his son’s hair”, the mass murderer who claimed that having access to hardcore porn was his human right and the Afghan migrant who could not be extradited to Belgium “because of mosquitoes” in the prison.
The political debate around human rights law is shot through with myths and misinformation, going back to former prime minister Theresa May’s suggestion in 2011 that an illegal immigrant could not be deported because “he had a pet cat”. In fact, the critical factor was his long-term partner." [Post edited 14 Sep 20:39]
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| This Unite the Kingdom march on 20:39 - Sep 14 with 986 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 15:53 - Sep 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I can't square the circle that anyone with good conscience would attend a mach organised by Tommy Robinson.
I understand patriotism. I'm completely on board with a sense of national pride. I'm not ashamed to say that I love my country.
I also understand the frustration and sense of hopelessness and powerlessness that many people are feeling in this country at the moment. But associating yourself in anyway with the likes of TR, Katie Hopkins and Laurence Fox is something no one should ever do. |
Quite. And that’s before Musk turned up and incited violent overthrowing of our government. If the penny doesn’t drop over all of this it never will. |  |
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| This Unite the Kingdom march on 20:55 - Sep 14 with 918 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 20:39 - Sep 14 by DJR |
I've mentioned before that misinformation and ignorance plays a big part in attitudes to immigration and came across the following in an article in today's Observer.
"It is known in Whitehall as the “chicken nugget debacle”. An Albanian criminal had supposedly avoided deportation because his son disliked foreign chicken nuggets.
Kemi Badenoch cited the widely reported case as an example of how the European convention on human rights (ECHR) “is weaponised by those who wish to erode our national identity and border security”. Nigel Farage said: “You read this stuff and you just want to cry.”
Except it never happened. There was no ruling that the foreign offender should be allowed to stay in Britain because his child was a picky eater. An immigration tribunal did initially decide that it would be “unduly harsh” for the boy to be sent to Albania because of his special educational needs, but this judgment was later overturned. A more senior judge rejected the man’s appeal and made absolutely clear that an aversion to chicken nuggets should never be enough to prevent deportation.
This was not an isolated case. There was the Iranian criminal “spared deportation so he can cut his son’s hair”, the mass murderer who claimed that having access to hardcore porn was his human right and the Afghan migrant who could not be extradited to Belgium “because of mosquitoes” in the prison.
The political debate around human rights law is shot through with myths and misinformation, going back to former prime minister Theresa May’s suggestion in 2011 that an illegal immigrant could not be deported because “he had a pet cat”. In fact, the critical factor was his long-term partner." [Post edited 14 Sep 20:39]
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An ignorance born of lack of curiosity but also from being lied to constantly. The whole movement (call it what you want - populist, right wing, conservative) is based on a pack of lies. Brexit was based on a pack of lies. MAGA is based on a pack of lies. The free speech warriors’ argument is based on a pack of lies. That’s not political from me either. Proper Conservatives wouldn’t recognise the right in the UK these days either.
I’m critical of Starmer as his policies are muddled and unclear and he seems in the pocket of corporate lobbyists, but at least he’s not lying every day* and not propped up by lying right wing columnists. We had a taste of populism under Johnson/pro-conservative press double act and people quickly saw through it. I’d have hoped people would have seen through Farage by now so we don’t repeat that mistake.
(*although people who accuse him of lying in his leadership pitch have probably got a strong case). [Post edited 14 Sep 21:24]
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| This Unite the Kingdom march on 21:04 - Sep 14 with 885 views | DJR |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 20:55 - Sep 14 by Swansea_Blue |
An ignorance born of lack of curiosity but also from being lied to constantly. The whole movement (call it what you want - populist, right wing, conservative) is based on a pack of lies. Brexit was based on a pack of lies. MAGA is based on a pack of lies. The free speech warriors’ argument is based on a pack of lies. That’s not political from me either. Proper Conservatives wouldn’t recognise the right in the UK these days either.
I’m critical of Starmer as his policies are muddled and unclear and he seems in the pocket of corporate lobbyists, but at least he’s not lying every day* and not propped up by lying right wing columnists. We had a taste of populism under Johnson/pro-conservative press double act and people quickly saw through it. I’d have hoped people would have seen through Farage by now so we don’t repeat that mistake.
(*although people who accuse him of lying in his leadership pitch have probably got a strong case). [Post edited 14 Sep 21:24]
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Interesting to hear Chris Patten on LBC earlier today who condemned Trump and yesterday's march out of hand. Sadly, such voices in the the Tory Party are few and far between these days given the party is going down the Trumpian route.
On misinformation, the Guardian is reporting this.
"The Metropolitan police has had to counter false suggestions by the artificial intelligence on Elon Musk’s X platform that the force passed off footage from 2020 as being from Saturday’s far-right rally in the city.
The claim by the chatbot Grok was in answer to an X user’s query about where and when footage of police clashing with crowds was filmed.
Grok, which has had a track record of giving false and misleading answers, replied: “This footage appears to be from an anti-lockdown protest in London’s Trafalgar Square on 26 September 2020, during clashes between demonstrators and police over Covid restrictions.”
The answer was quickly picked up and amplified by X users, including the Daily Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson, who tweeted: “This was my suspicion,” before asking: “Did the Met claim footage of clashes in summer 2020 took place yesterday?”
The Met responded to her by saying that the footage was filmed on Saturday shortly before 3pm at the junction of Whitehall and Horse Guards Avenue.
“It is quite obviously not Trafalgar Square as is suggested in the AI response you have referenced, but for the avoidance of further doubt we have provided a labelled comparison to confirm the location,” the force added.
What a sick world we live in. [Post edited 14 Sep 21:05]
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| This Unite the Kingdom march on 21:21 - Sep 14 with 820 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 21:04 - Sep 14 by DJR |
Interesting to hear Chris Patten on LBC earlier today who condemned Trump and yesterday's march out of hand. Sadly, such voices in the the Tory Party are few and far between these days given the party is going down the Trumpian route.
On misinformation, the Guardian is reporting this.
"The Metropolitan police has had to counter false suggestions by the artificial intelligence on Elon Musk’s X platform that the force passed off footage from 2020 as being from Saturday’s far-right rally in the city.
The claim by the chatbot Grok was in answer to an X user’s query about where and when footage of police clashing with crowds was filmed.
Grok, which has had a track record of giving false and misleading answers, replied: “This footage appears to be from an anti-lockdown protest in London’s Trafalgar Square on 26 September 2020, during clashes between demonstrators and police over Covid restrictions.”
The answer was quickly picked up and amplified by X users, including the Daily Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson, who tweeted: “This was my suspicion,” before asking: “Did the Met claim footage of clashes in summer 2020 took place yesterday?”
The Met responded to her by saying that the footage was filmed on Saturday shortly before 3pm at the junction of Whitehall and Horse Guards Avenue.
“It is quite obviously not Trafalgar Square as is suggested in the AI response you have referenced, but for the avoidance of further doubt we have provided a labelled comparison to confirm the location,” the force added.
What a sick world we live in. [Post edited 14 Sep 21:05]
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People like Allison Pearson are the real problem (edit- more like useful puppets on reflection). That’s not surprising from her. It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that right wing media will soon follow in the footsteps of Fox’s Brian Kilmeade and start suggesting we could solve the homeless problem through “involuntary lethal injection”. Hopefully not, but remigration theory is gaining traction and we are definitely slipping further and further right.
Everyone umming and ahing over whether the rising far right are fascists while we have the world’s richest man throwing Nazi solutes and supporting yesterday’s march and a prominent US right wing media figure suggesting we adopt the Nazi’s Aktion T4 programme. A sick world indeed. [Post edited 14 Sep 21:26]
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| This Unite the Kingdom march on 21:31 - Sep 14 with 759 views | Tonytown |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 21:21 - Sep 14 by Swansea_Blue |
People like Allison Pearson are the real problem (edit- more like useful puppets on reflection). That’s not surprising from her. It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that right wing media will soon follow in the footsteps of Fox’s Brian Kilmeade and start suggesting we could solve the homeless problem through “involuntary lethal injection”. Hopefully not, but remigration theory is gaining traction and we are definitely slipping further and further right.
Everyone umming and ahing over whether the rising far right are fascists while we have the world’s richest man throwing Nazi solutes and supporting yesterday’s march and a prominent US right wing media figure suggesting we adopt the Nazi’s Aktion T4 programme. A sick world indeed. [Post edited 14 Sep 21:26]
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There’s a few on here doing just that, but it’s our fault for challenging them | | | |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 21:41 - Sep 14 with 692 views | DropCliffsNotBombs |
| This Unite the Kingdom march on 10:22 - Sep 14 by BrentwoodBlagger2 |
Okay - I went there as an observer (not a supporter of either march) with two others (one retired Police Officer and the other was a Journalist) yesterday. We stayed inside a building in Stamford Street, SE1 yesterday and watched for 3 hours as the 20 person wide march passed our building at a fast walking pace. It was still passing when we left to go to the Trafalgar Square area 3 hours later and the rear of the march was still at Waterloo. The numbers were way more than the 150k reported and consisted of men, women, children and mixed ethnicity groups including Maori's. There was a Bishop, priests, people in wheelchairs and a real diverse mix (not all shaven headed, heavily tattooed thugs with broken noses as reported in The Mail). Near Trafalgar Square I saw large groups from both main march's break away from the minimal Police escorts and confrontations occurred. Police then belatedly attempted to separate the groups - small groups from both sides were causing the problems. The Anti-Racists/Antifa faction that broke away were mainly masked and were hostile and so were the non-masked faction from Robinson's march. It was a lot of shouting, pushing and some objects were thrown. It was then all over after some arrests from both sides. Police failed to properly control both march's and the flashpoint's then occurred. I've seen worse trouble at Portman Road! [Post edited 14 Sep 10:23]
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Ha! State of the tweedles pretending to believe this guff. |  | | |
| This place is getting ridiculous..... on 22:27 - Sep 14 with 544 views | reusersfreekicks |
| This place is getting ridiculous..... on 19:26 - Sep 14 by BrentwoodBlagger2 |
I attended as I have said so many times as an observer, accompanying a journalist and a retired police officer who was working for an organisation. Being outraged is not compulsory and to be honest I saw pathetic behaviour on both sides. I am too old in the tooth to care about being outraged by these events, as I have seen so many before. To be honest I feel that the world is totally f**ked up at the minute and me being outraged or not outraged is irrelevant. All I really care about is my family and football team. |
If that's all you care about why did you go?
You equate the far right people rallying with the stand up to racism protest. There is no neutral. If your not against the far right you are with them |  | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 22:37 - Sep 14 with 498 views | mellowblue |
| I very much doubt that.... on 20:27 - Sep 14 by Tonytown |
You sound like Neville Chamberlain, say nothing do nothing
You’re part of the problem |
don't really know much about Neville Chamberlain, do you. | | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:03 - Sep 14 with 426 views | Tonytown |
| I very much doubt that.... on 22:37 - Sep 14 by mellowblue |
don't really know much about Neville Chamberlain, do you. |
I’m very well aware of the thing that he is most famous for, the policy of appeasement whilst Germany annexed parts of Czechoslovakia.
That’s what’s happening here about a march organised by racists and featuring speeches by racists.
You’re either for them or against them | | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:14 - Sep 14 with 379 views | TheMoralMajority |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:03 - Sep 14 by Tonytown |
I’m very well aware of the thing that he is most famous for, the policy of appeasement whilst Germany annexed parts of Czechoslovakia.
That’s what’s happening here about a march organised by racists and featuring speeches by racists.
You’re either for them or against them |
This is the problem, and I'm going to get downvoted to high heaven for this, but what the hell.
The "us and them" mentality helps nothing. Absolutely nothing. If you can't see that the extremes just endlessly shouting at each other is exactly what is leading 150k people turning out for such a march, then anything I say will change nothing.
The goal should be to unite and educate, not to castigate and blame. At what point does it become apparent that not everyone attending these marches are racist bigots? When it's 150k? When it's 250k? When it's millions? When it is everyone in society except for you?
These people are winning because the people at the top are giving seemingly easy solutions to difficult problems, even when the problems aren't real and the solutions are bunkum.
And the more outraged and shouty the people on the left get, the more they push the undecided and unknowing into the arms of those on the right.
What is required are solutions and real alternatives, not castigation, blame and finger pointing. You just entrench people further into their positions and alienate them further.
Personally, the messenger is as important as the message, but not everyone is as engaged with politics and people's history as you may be. People see their own situation as being poor, they see people telling them why this is, they see people saying that they have the solution to their woes. Why would you not support the people saying they will make their life better, when you see no other alternative?
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Back to lurking, and avoiding threads where people are seeing who can shout at each other the loudest. |  |
| ...but do signatures really work? |
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| I very much doubt that.... on 23:31 - Sep 14 with 317 views | reusersfreekicks |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:14 - Sep 14 by TheMoralMajority |
This is the problem, and I'm going to get downvoted to high heaven for this, but what the hell.
The "us and them" mentality helps nothing. Absolutely nothing. If you can't see that the extremes just endlessly shouting at each other is exactly what is leading 150k people turning out for such a march, then anything I say will change nothing.
The goal should be to unite and educate, not to castigate and blame. At what point does it become apparent that not everyone attending these marches are racist bigots? When it's 150k? When it's 250k? When it's millions? When it is everyone in society except for you?
These people are winning because the people at the top are giving seemingly easy solutions to difficult problems, even when the problems aren't real and the solutions are bunkum.
And the more outraged and shouty the people on the left get, the more they push the undecided and unknowing into the arms of those on the right.
What is required are solutions and real alternatives, not castigation, blame and finger pointing. You just entrench people further into their positions and alienate them further.
Personally, the messenger is as important as the message, but not everyone is as engaged with politics and people's history as you may be. People see their own situation as being poor, they see people telling them why this is, they see people saying that they have the solution to their woes. Why would you not support the people saying they will make their life better, when you see no other alternative?
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Back to lurking, and avoiding threads where people are seeing who can shout at each other the loudest. |
Bit superior in tone I feel.
Why does standing up to racism, authoritarianism and anti democratic tendencies make someone left or far left. Most of what is said by people protesting the above on here Ed Davey would agree with. Is he far left?
It's a fine line between understanding people's woes and normalising the gigantic shift to the dangerous handline right.
People are rightly concerned and verbalising this. | | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:39 - Sep 14 with 273 views | Swailsey |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:31 - Sep 14 by reusersfreekicks |
Bit superior in tone I feel.
Why does standing up to racism, authoritarianism and anti democratic tendencies make someone left or far left. Most of what is said by people protesting the above on here Ed Davey would agree with. Is he far left?
It's a fine line between understanding people's woes and normalising the gigantic shift to the dangerous handline right.
People are rightly concerned and verbalising this. |
What recent weeks have taught me is that there is a far greater amount of hate apologists out there than I thought (not directed at the post you replied to).
It seems to be in direct response to recent liberations (women’s rights, LGBTQ+, kick it out), because people are upset that those they marginalised were able to feel safer.
In many ways it feels as though we are going backwards now, and are descending into a thoroughly unpleasant world to live in, unless you choose to bury your head in the sand to other people’s suffering - which just seems so selfish and impossible to me.
It’s enough to make you want to give up any hope for the future and I’m really not sure if I want any part of the world we are living in. [Post edited 14 Sep 23:40]
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| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| I very much doubt that.... on 23:44 - Sep 14 with 240 views | reusersfreekicks |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:39 - Sep 14 by Swailsey |
What recent weeks have taught me is that there is a far greater amount of hate apologists out there than I thought (not directed at the post you replied to).
It seems to be in direct response to recent liberations (women’s rights, LGBTQ+, kick it out), because people are upset that those they marginalised were able to feel safer.
In many ways it feels as though we are going backwards now, and are descending into a thoroughly unpleasant world to live in, unless you choose to bury your head in the sand to other people’s suffering - which just seems so selfish and impossible to me.
It’s enough to make you want to give up any hope for the future and I’m really not sure if I want any part of the world we are living in. [Post edited 14 Sep 23:40]
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There is always hope.
Most people are ultimately good.
The bad people have the momentum at the moment but hopefully that won't last | | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:52 - Sep 14 with 191 views | DropCliffsNotBombs |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:39 - Sep 14 by Swailsey |
What recent weeks have taught me is that there is a far greater amount of hate apologists out there than I thought (not directed at the post you replied to).
It seems to be in direct response to recent liberations (women’s rights, LGBTQ+, kick it out), because people are upset that those they marginalised were able to feel safer.
In many ways it feels as though we are going backwards now, and are descending into a thoroughly unpleasant world to live in, unless you choose to bury your head in the sand to other people’s suffering - which just seems so selfish and impossible to me.
It’s enough to make you want to give up any hope for the future and I’m really not sure if I want any part of the world we are living in. [Post edited 14 Sep 23:40]
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It's clear that there are a depressing number of overtly racist abhorrent people who have had their bullsht normalised, and an even greater number of cowardly fckwits who legitimise and excuse the scumbags (this forum being a perfect microcosm of this).
However, whilst I completely get the sentiment in your final para, I have to believe that there are enough decent people to ensure it can't be this way forever. It just can't. | | | |
| I very much doubt that.... on 00:03 - Sep 15 with 115 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I very much doubt that.... on 23:39 - Sep 14 by Swailsey |
What recent weeks have taught me is that there is a far greater amount of hate apologists out there than I thought (not directed at the post you replied to).
It seems to be in direct response to recent liberations (women’s rights, LGBTQ+, kick it out), because people are upset that those they marginalised were able to feel safer.
In many ways it feels as though we are going backwards now, and are descending into a thoroughly unpleasant world to live in, unless you choose to bury your head in the sand to other people’s suffering - which just seems so selfish and impossible to me.
It’s enough to make you want to give up any hope for the future and I’m really not sure if I want any part of the world we are living in. [Post edited 14 Sep 23:40]
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It's as clear as day Swailsey, to anyone that wants to see it, that the public are being played by those that want to preserve and increase their wealth by being encouraged to kick at those even further down the food chain than themselves. Musk, Trump, Farage the defenders of the common man along with their social media influencer grafter lieutenants are playing a blinder and the ignorant are so willing to believe their lazy narratives while being mugged.
Believe me, I have been in that place you allude to in your last paragraph and made some stupid choices while trying to hide from the world you describe. Sometimes it makes sense for your Self preservation to make your World smaller, find beauty where you can, be with compassionate, empathic caring people, get into nature and leave the fools to their madness as best you can.
Be good to yourself Swailsey and to those around you and leave the haters to their hate. |  |
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| I very much doubt that.... on 00:10 - Sep 15 with 83 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I very much doubt that.... on 00:04 - Sep 15 by Whos_blue |
Come on mate. While there are still draught excluders there will always be hope!
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