| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something 09:30 - Oct 13 with 5794 views | giant_stow |
Really grim?:
Little wvnker - this week i'll be volunteering for the same club. Ouch.
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:17 - Oct 13 with 938 views | lowhouseblue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 09:55 - Oct 13 by Guthrum |
Universities shouldn't be policing the political activity of their students. It's a sandbox where young people can develop views and identities without real consequences.
Except in cases where it crosses the line into potentially criminal incitement of violence - which this, arguably, does.
Tho the two tweets are also questionable in equating a dislike of Zionism (in its modern context, a chauvinistic political movement) with antisemitism and hatred of all jews. |
"Universities shouldn't be policing the political activity of their students."
while that's true you are definitely right to then add your 'within the law' caveat. but for me i don't think the clip amounts to criminal incitement - but is very unpleasant and the guy has problems.
but universities also have to uphold the rights of other students - in particular the right to go about their studies without facing a hostile and intimidating environment. the problem for universities is when 'political activity' tips over into creating an environment where the rights of other students are impacted. that's why this stuff is so difficult for universities. generally students should be free to say stupid things but, and setting aside illegality, in an academic community they still need to behave reasonably. if he had behaved in that way in a university setting then the university should probably be looking at it. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:25 - Oct 13 with 907 views | ArmaghBlue |
The funny thing is, they probably think it was their stupid protests that led to the Israel withdrawal. |  | | |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:25 - Oct 13 with 900 views | Ryorry |
It’s hate speech/incitement to violence. Always report it as such to the platform, or to police if you’re there. |  |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:38 - Oct 13 with 857 views | Guthrum |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:17 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
"Universities shouldn't be policing the political activity of their students."
while that's true you are definitely right to then add your 'within the law' caveat. but for me i don't think the clip amounts to criminal incitement - but is very unpleasant and the guy has problems.
but universities also have to uphold the rights of other students - in particular the right to go about their studies without facing a hostile and intimidating environment. the problem for universities is when 'political activity' tips over into creating an environment where the rights of other students are impacted. that's why this stuff is so difficult for universities. generally students should be free to say stupid things but, and setting aside illegality, in an academic community they still need to behave reasonably. if he had behaved in that way in a university setting then the university should probably be looking at it. |
However, (setting aside illegality) that in itself should have limits. Anybody could claim to have their "comfort zone" infringed by the expression of views which may be antagonistic to their own. What is education if not exposure to having one's position challenged? How else are people forced to think about and defend their ideas?
Certainly it should not be presented in such a hostile and aggressive manner as this instance (effectively wishing people dead). But it can go too far the other way, also. |  |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:51 - Oct 13 with 806 views | lowhouseblue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:38 - Oct 13 by Guthrum |
However, (setting aside illegality) that in itself should have limits. Anybody could claim to have their "comfort zone" infringed by the expression of views which may be antagonistic to their own. What is education if not exposure to having one's position challenged? How else are people forced to think about and defend their ideas?
Certainly it should not be presented in such a hostile and aggressive manner as this instance (effectively wishing people dead). But it can go too far the other way, also. |
absolutely. "comfort zone" is meaningless nonsense. hearing views you disagree with is not harassment, or infringing your rights in any way whatsoever. being offended is equally not 'violence' or something you should be protected from. higher education should be challenging and should involve the risk of being offended or upset or being politically disagreed with. all within the law of course.
but it's when behaviour goes beyond expressing ideas or views that someone finds offensive and tips into intimidation and threat which makes this all so difficult. should you have to contend with a picket line everyday, with banners and chants directed at who you are or what you believe, just to get to the library? these things have a cumulative impact. encampments which go on for months with passers by being jeered or hassled also has an impact that goes beyond 'views which are antagonistic'. it's difficult stuff. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:58 - Oct 13 with 794 views | blueasfook |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:51 - Oct 13 by lowhouseblue |
absolutely. "comfort zone" is meaningless nonsense. hearing views you disagree with is not harassment, or infringing your rights in any way whatsoever. being offended is equally not 'violence' or something you should be protected from. higher education should be challenging and should involve the risk of being offended or upset or being politically disagreed with. all within the law of course.
but it's when behaviour goes beyond expressing ideas or views that someone finds offensive and tips into intimidation and threat which makes this all so difficult. should you have to contend with a picket line everyday, with banners and chants directed at who you are or what you believe, just to get to the library? these things have a cumulative impact. encampments which go on for months with passers by being jeered or hassled also has an impact that goes beyond 'views which are antagonistic'. it's difficult stuff. |
My son (a second year university student) has fallen down the Jewish conspiracy theory black hole. I went to visit him at the weekend and he was going on about Blackrock and the jews were behind 9/11 and all sorts of nonsense. I don't know if it's people at university imparting this to him or if he's fallen down some kind of social media rabbit hole. [Post edited 13 Oct 11:59]
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:04 - Oct 13 with 749 views | Blueschev |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:58 - Oct 13 by blueasfook |
My son (a second year university student) has fallen down the Jewish conspiracy theory black hole. I went to visit him at the weekend and he was going on about Blackrock and the jews were behind 9/11 and all sorts of nonsense. I don't know if it's people at university imparting this to him or if he's fallen down some kind of social media rabbit hole. [Post edited 13 Oct 11:59]
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This stuff is all over Facebook, really sick and worrying content. I reported a particularly vile account that was essentially praising Hitler's actions against Jews, and the reply was that the video did not breach community guidelines on hate speech. |  | | |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:05 - Oct 13 with 748 views | LeightonBuzzardBlue |
As a Clapton CFC member, it's a shame to see this.
I assure anyone who has seen this that this does not fit with the club ethos at all. |  | | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:08 - Oct 13 with 741 views | lowhouseblue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 11:58 - Oct 13 by blueasfook |
My son (a second year university student) has fallen down the Jewish conspiracy theory black hole. I went to visit him at the weekend and he was going on about Blackrock and the jews were behind 9/11 and all sorts of nonsense. I don't know if it's people at university imparting this to him or if he's fallen down some kind of social media rabbit hole. [Post edited 13 Oct 11:59]
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i'm sorry to hear that. this stuff is certainly having a resurgence and all the activism and narratives around gaza do make people more vulnerable to it. there is a thin line between presenting israel as uniquely evil and opening up wider conspiracy nonsense. and it all provides a route into those social media rabbit holes. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:08 - Oct 13 with 733 views | blueasfook |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:04 - Oct 13 by Blueschev |
This stuff is all over Facebook, really sick and worrying content. I reported a particularly vile account that was essentially praising Hitler's actions against Jews, and the reply was that the video did not breach community guidelines on hate speech. |
Pointless reporting this stuff yeah. I've reported vile stuff like that too and as you say, you just get a reply saying it doesn't breach guidelines. I guess they don't care as long as it's generating clicks. | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:13 - Oct 13 with 706 views | giant_stow |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:05 - Oct 13 by LeightonBuzzardBlue |
As a Clapton CFC member, it's a shame to see this.
I assure anyone who has seen this that this does not fit with the club ethos at all. |
That's interesting that there's two of us here.
I've asked around and so far, no one seems to know this guy - you heard anything? | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:15 - Oct 13 with 684 views | Ryorry |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:08 - Oct 13 by blueasfook |
Pointless reporting this stuff yeah. I've reported vile stuff like that too and as you say, you just get a reply saying it doesn't breach guidelines. I guess they don't care as long as it's generating clicks. |
Clear case for this government to bring in legislation to regulate sm platforms much more stringently (have a vague recollection of this being mentioned somewhere on BBC radio at the w/e).
Maybe if thousands of people in all constituencies raised the issue with their MPs they couldn’t ignore it? | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:20 - Oct 13 with 664 views | blueasfook |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:15 - Oct 13 by Ryorry |
Clear case for this government to bring in legislation to regulate sm platforms much more stringently (have a vague recollection of this being mentioned somewhere on BBC radio at the w/e).
Maybe if thousands of people in all constituencies raised the issue with their MPs they couldn’t ignore it? |
The Online Safety Act should have addressed it, but instead it was more concerned about 14 year old boys looking at titties. I'd be more worried about them becoming politically radicalised. | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:24 - Oct 13 with 641 views | GlasgowBlue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 10:36 - Oct 13 by Guthrum |
Zionism is a complex thing, which has changed and evolved over time. Moreover, it is also a label used as a blanket perjorative by its opponents, divorced from any specific meaning (much as the term "Fascist" is used nowadays to describe anyone politically right-ish whom the speaker doesn't like).
Originally, it simply meant a desire to restore a Jewish homeland in the Middle East and was as much driven (in public discourse, at least) by Christian idealists as Jews themselves.
Then, from the late 19th century onwards, Western European Jews and particularly the diaspora in the USA began an active campaign to make it a reality. Fuelled by the weakness and eventual collapse of the Ottoman Empire, plus mass migration of Jews fleeing severe persecution in the Pale* of the Russian Empire. Many of these early leaders were politically left or socialist, seeking to build an egalitarian, democratic society. Those in Europe and America were also isolated from, but incensed by, the often violent strife between Jewish and Arab communities which had been going on for decades.
In the decades after the establishment of Israel and in the face of constant attacks and hostile rhetoric by its neighbours, there was a change. The old socialist Zionists had died and were replaced by more nationalist elements - many of them forged in active military service against the Arabs. The parliamentary system in Israel gave prominence to quite small, but religio-politically extreme Orthodox parties, who had an ideological interest in expanding the country's borders on a Solomonic pattern (i.e. to, or even beyond, the River Jordan).
Thus we end up with modern Zionists like Netanyahu - right-wing, authoritarian, nationalist, chauvanist. Who are different in many ways to the likes of Herzl or Weizmann.
* Russian Jews were forcibly confined to living in a strip along that empire's western border, known as the Pale. Even there, repression, persecution and murder-sprees called pogroms were frequent. |
Has the meaning of Zionism changed and evolved? Or has its meaning, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the historical land of Israel, been highjacked by the far right nationalist settler fanatics like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich in the same way that the likes of IS have their own warped interpretation of Islam.
Calling for the death of Zionists, the majority of worldwide Jewry, is no different to calling for the death of Muslims because the meaning of Islam has been highjacked by warped jihadist fanatics. |  |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:29 - Oct 13 with 614 views | LeightonBuzzardBlue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:13 - Oct 13 by giant_stow |
That's interesting that there's two of us here.
I've asked around and so far, no one seems to know this guy - you heard anything? |
Indeed! A shame that we've found out under these circumstances.
Been going just shy of two years now as I moved to E7 -- committed to membership a few months back!
Not heard anything personally. Hoping that the shirt is just a symbolic purchase rather than any connection to the club. | | | |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:32 - Oct 13 with 600 views | giant_stow |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:29 - Oct 13 by LeightonBuzzardBlue |
Indeed! A shame that we've found out under these circumstances.
Been going just shy of two years now as I moved to E7 -- committed to membership a few months back!
Not heard anything personally. Hoping that the shirt is just a symbolic purchase rather than any connection to the club. |
Nice one!
"Hoping that the shirt is just a symbolic purchase rather than any connection to the club."
100% - many do buy the shirt without following the club, I think, so hope you're right. | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:54 - Oct 13 with 547 views | Illinoisblue |
Weren’t the police arresting old ladies last week for just holding up signs? |  |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 13:15 - Oct 13 with 508 views | Guthrum |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:24 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Has the meaning of Zionism changed and evolved? Or has its meaning, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the historical land of Israel, been highjacked by the far right nationalist settler fanatics like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich in the same way that the likes of IS have their own warped interpretation of Islam.
Calling for the death of Zionists, the majority of worldwide Jewry, is no different to calling for the death of Muslims because the meaning of Islam has been highjacked by warped jihadist fanatics. |
I'd say it has, especially as that homeland is established and the extremists are currently the noisiest section of what is a broad movement*. But I agree the hijacking is little different to IS declaring themselves the personification of Islam.
I have no doubt that the idiot was thinking of all Israelis - if not all Jews - with his malevolent chant. Which is ignorant, irrational and (IMO) borderline criminal (incitement to violence, collective punishment).
* Edit: What I mean is that it moves the central thrust of a wider movement, thus changing its direction. Not that all those who support a Jewish homeland (traditional Zionism) have suddenly become genocidal fanatics. And certainly not that anyone should be targets for violence. [Post edited 13 Oct 13:20]
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 13:16 - Oct 13 with 499 views | Reuser_is_God |
What the fcuk is wrong with this country. |  |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 13:19 - Oct 13 with 497 views | Guthrum |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 13:16 - Oct 13 by Reuser_is_God |
What the fcuk is wrong with this country. |
Idiots get more visibility (on social media). Thus making it easier to connect with other idiots and create a critical mass. | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:06 - Oct 13 with 380 views | ZapatasMoustache |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 09:55 - Oct 13 by Guthrum |
Universities shouldn't be policing the political activity of their students. It's a sandbox where young people can develop views and identities without real consequences.
Except in cases where it crosses the line into potentially criminal incitement of violence - which this, arguably, does.
Tho the two tweets are also questionable in equating a dislike of Zionism (in its modern context, a chauvinistic political movement) with antisemitism and hatred of all jews. |
Quite. Anti-Zionism is a protected characteristic (or at least has been found so in a recent employment tribunal), though of course incitement to violence is another story. I think you'd have a very hard time persuading anyone that this person chanting it had anything to do with any violence which actually happens though (unlike, say, calling online for people to burn down hostels which then happens...). |  | | |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:08 - Oct 13 with 375 views | ZapatasMoustache |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 12:24 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Has the meaning of Zionism changed and evolved? Or has its meaning, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the historical land of Israel, been highjacked by the far right nationalist settler fanatics like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich in the same way that the likes of IS have their own warped interpretation of Islam.
Calling for the death of Zionists, the majority of worldwide Jewry, is no different to calling for the death of Muslims because the meaning of Islam has been highjacked by warped jihadist fanatics. |
That's not true though - those are very different. The numerical majority of Zionists globally are not Jewish, they are Christian or other supporters of Israel. | | | |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:16 - Oct 13 with 362 views | GlasgowBlue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:08 - Oct 13 by ZapatasMoustache |
That's not true though - those are very different. The numerical majority of Zionists globally are not Jewish, they are Christian or other supporters of Israel. |
The majority of worldwide Jewry define themselves as Zionist. 90%+ of worldwide Jewry support Israel's right to exist. | |
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| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:33 - Oct 13 with 327 views | ZapatasMoustache |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:16 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
The majority of worldwide Jewry define themselves as Zionist. 90%+ of worldwide Jewry support Israel's right to exist. |
I'm not disputing that, just that Zionism is not an ideology limited to Jewish people! | | | |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 15:34 - Oct 13 with 327 views | benrhyddingblue |
| What if a prick wearing your club's colours does something on 13:19 - Oct 13 by Guthrum |
Idiots get more visibility (on social media). Thus making it easier to connect with other idiots and create a critical mass. |
Absolutely, social media has no boundaries any more - if it ever did. I’ve filed complaints on FB about comments that were clearly racist or even explicitly pro-Nazi (praising Hitler) and none were upheld. In fact I ended up with a ban for trying to sell ‘counterfeit’ goods when I misspelled Adidas trying to sell some old football boots one of my sons had grown out of.
A different debate maybe but I don’t think it is any coincidence that there has been a rise in extreme views becoming more mainstream at the same time there has been a growth in social media use. |  | | |
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