| Morsy benched 18:40 - Jan 20 with 7021 views | Zx1988 |
PLEASE let's not applaud him on to the pitch if/when he gets subbed on. |  |
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| Morsy benched on 09:25 - Jan 22 with 589 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 09:19 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Well- he actively declined to wear the stuff in support of LGBTQ, which is a statement in itself. |
And as pointed out even by p7 on that thread, there were several possible reasons why he didn’t, none of them down to him actually being a “homophobe”. |  |
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| Morsy benched on 09:28 - Jan 22 with 602 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 09:25 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
And as pointed out even by p7 on that thread, there were several possible reasons why he didn’t, none of them down to him actually being a “homophobe”. |
It is still a statement one is choosing to make.
And it is not unreasonable to draw logical reasonable inferences from that.
Even if, for instance, it is to avoid criticism within his community or grief for family members over it, it is a choice not to stand up for something which is clearly and objectively right. | |
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| Morsy benched on 09:42 - Jan 22 with 534 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 09:28 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
It is still a statement one is choosing to make.
And it is not unreasonable to draw logical reasonable inferences from that.
Even if, for instance, it is to avoid criticism within his community or grief for family members over it, it is a choice not to stand up for something which is clearly and objectively right. |
As I pointed out on there in a post on p6 (? iirc), children being indoctrinated/brainwashed from birth into a religion followed by their parents/guardians/community isn’t much of a “choice” for them. Just one of the reasons I’m opposed to all organised religions.
The point was also made by someone that the initiative was a Stonewall one, and that they had a much wider umbrella of aims that not everyone could agree with, and that it might have been different if the PL/EFL had just created a “rainbow laces day” themselves to show support. | |
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| Morsy benched on 09:45 - Jan 22 with 559 views | baxterbasics |
| Morsy benched on 09:17 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Massive straw man. I haven't seen anyone reducing Morsy; personality to one thing in the way you suggest.
They have, quite reasonably, expressed discomfort at his stance on the rainbow armband stuff. |
Libero pretty much did though. |  |
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| Morsy benched on 09:47 - Jan 22 with 555 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 09:42 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
As I pointed out on there in a post on p6 (? iirc), children being indoctrinated/brainwashed from birth into a religion followed by their parents/guardians/community isn’t much of a “choice” for them. Just one of the reasons I’m opposed to all organised religions.
The point was also made by someone that the initiative was a Stonewall one, and that they had a much wider umbrella of aims that not everyone could agree with, and that it might have been different if the PL/EFL had just created a “rainbow laces day” themselves to show support. |
We can all make choices to be better informed and to review our positions.
Here's the simple thing: Its a statement when everyone else is doing it. If you have good reasons for that statement, you can say so and explain them. If you don't, its not unreasonable for people to reach the obvious conclusion.
Which in this instance, is that it was at odds with religous beliefs. And those religous beliefs, like so many, have elements which are problematic. | |
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| Morsy benched on 09:55 - Jan 22 with 495 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 09:47 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
We can all make choices to be better informed and to review our positions.
Here's the simple thing: Its a statement when everyone else is doing it. If you have good reasons for that statement, you can say so and explain them. If you don't, its not unreasonable for people to reach the obvious conclusion.
Which in this instance, is that it was at odds with religous beliefs. And those religous beliefs, like so many, have elements which are problematic. |
I agree with both your opening paragraph and
“And those religous beliefs, like so many, have elements which are problematic.”
As SM may also have done privately. The thing is that It’s really not “simple”, and people shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions that are unevidenced & *not* “obvious”. [Post edited 22 Jan 10:00]
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| Morsy benched on 10:01 - Jan 22 with 510 views | Libero |
| Morsy benched on 09:45 - Jan 22 by baxterbasics |
Libero pretty much did though. |
Weird read- Morsy is clearly a lot of things to a lot of different people- in the context of what matters to this website, he’s the former captain of our club over a period of fabulous success.
To me as an individual, he is of course that- but he’s also an individual who as actively chosen to not support the LGBTQ community and used religion as a shield to justify his discrimination.
As I’ve said in this thread and others, it’s his perogotive to apply the rules of his religion how he sees fit, previously he’s worn shirts with betting sponsors on, which shows his flexibility and that within his own personal version of his religion, that was acceptable- he actively made that choice-
just as he actively made the choice to reject the rainbow armband campaign to support and raise the visibility of LGBTQ people on behalf of Ipswich Town Football Club.
In making that active move to discriminate, he may well be fulfilling his own personal version of his religion, but as he’s evidenced, that personal religious interpretation is flexible, which means he is actively making the choice to discriminate against LGBTQ people, which in my personal view, makes him a homophobe.
There’s also a number of questionable historic retweets/likes/etc on Twitter too, that I saw, which support my personal view that Morsy is homophobic.
It is his perogotive and right to make the choices he wants, but that doesn’t mean they’re free of criticism- just as clearly, my choice to term him a homophobe isn’t free of criticism.
I get it, most of you see nothing wrong with his choice- that’s fine, I respect your opinions.
I do think it’s funny to see so many people twisted up, just because I have a differing view on this- a view that I’ve shared my rationale for a few times. You can agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter and I’m certainly not going to argue with people about it.
We just hold different opinions. [Post edited 22 Jan 10:20]
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| Morsy benched on 10:11 - Jan 22 with 443 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 10:01 - Jan 22 by Libero |
Weird read- Morsy is clearly a lot of things to a lot of different people- in the context of what matters to this website, he’s the former captain of our club over a period of fabulous success.
To me as an individual, he is of course that- but he’s also an individual who as actively chosen to not support the LGBTQ community and used religion as a shield to justify his discrimination.
As I’ve said in this thread and others, it’s his perogotive to apply the rules of his religion how he sees fit, previously he’s worn shirts with betting sponsors on, which shows his flexibility and that within his own personal version of his religion, that was acceptable- he actively made that choice-
just as he actively made the choice to reject the rainbow armband campaign to support and raise the visibility of LGBTQ people on behalf of Ipswich Town Football Club.
In making that active move to discriminate, he may well be fulfilling his own personal version of his religion, but as he’s evidenced, that personal religious interpretation is flexible, which means he is actively making the choice to discriminate against LGBTQ people, which in my personal view, makes him a homophobe.
There’s also a number of questionable historic retweets/likes/etc on Twitter too, that I saw, which support my personal view that Morsy is homophobic.
It is his perogotive and right to make the choices he wants, but that doesn’t mean they’re free of criticism- just as clearly, my choice to term him a homophobe isn’t free of criticism.
I get it, most of you see nothing wrong with his choice- that’s fine, I respect your opinions.
I do think it’s funny to see so many people twisted up, just because I have a differing view on this- a view that I’ve shared my rationale for a few times. You can agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter and I’m certainly not going to argue with people about it.
We just hold different opinions. [Post edited 22 Jan 10:20]
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Signing for a club which might then later change its sponsorship/shirt logos isn’t a player’s choice.
Even if a betting company were the sponsor at the time of signing, if the player wasn’t being offered any other contract with alternative clubs, what are they supposed to do - jack in their career? | |
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| Morsy benched on 10:39 - Jan 22 with 409 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 09:55 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
I agree with both your opening paragraph and
“And those religous beliefs, like so many, have elements which are problematic.”
As SM may also have done privately. The thing is that It’s really not “simple”, and people shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions that are unevidenced & *not* “obvious”. [Post edited 22 Jan 10:00]
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They are though.
They are an absolutely reasonable inference, especially when someone chooses to do something different, and doesnt say why. | |
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| Morsy benched on 11:40 - Jan 22 with 357 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Morsy benched on 09:09 - Jan 22 by baxterbasics |
Maybe you are right about him, maybe you are not.
Either way I find it strange how quick we often are to just reduce someone's entire personality to one thing, attitude or event. Morsy? Homophobe. JK Rowling? Transphobe. The Royal Family? Nonce protectors. Someone says something in support of Israel? Genocide enabler. As if nothing any of these people do or achieve outside of that matters anymore.
I don't know what Sam's true feelings about the LGBT folks are. I don't need to. I can still appreciate and thank him for his contribution to our club. He probably would not appreciate my take on Israel/Palestine, but hopefully he would still respect me as a fan who paid to watch him play a few times.
I swear 90% of the conflict and abuse we see online would stop if people could just get over having to categorise everyone as 'team bad guy' or 'team good guy' on such limited data. [Post edited 22 Jan 9:43]
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Great post that.
Have an arrow of satisfaction |  |
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| Morsy benched on 11:53 - Jan 22 with 313 views | hype313 |
| Morsy benched on 10:11 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
Signing for a club which might then later change its sponsorship/shirt logos isn’t a player’s choice.
Even if a betting company were the sponsor at the time of signing, if the player wasn’t being offered any other contract with alternative clubs, what are they supposed to do - jack in their career? |
I think what Libbers is saying is he is choosing his least palatable poison (Betting) from his faith where he has a more laissez faire attitude to it to suit his needs, LGBTQ he can use his religion as a shield, knowing that it won't affect his contract or playing time if he refuses to take part.
I think, I can only glean from this thread, is what Libbers is saying is he's being a touch hypocritical, which, taken at face value from the outside, isn't a huge reach. |  |
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| Morsy benched on 12:28 - Jan 22 with 237 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 11:53 - Jan 22 by hype313 |
I think what Libbers is saying is he is choosing his least palatable poison (Betting) from his faith where he has a more laissez faire attitude to it to suit his needs, LGBTQ he can use his religion as a shield, knowing that it won't affect his contract or playing time if he refuses to take part.
I think, I can only glean from this thread, is what Libbers is saying is he's being a touch hypocritical, which, taken at face value from the outside, isn't a huge reach. |
Yet those are still just assumptions, guesswork, conclusions jumped to without any actual evidence.
I wonder what he (and one or two others) have said previously about being judgemental towards others without actual evidence or knowing them personally (I don't have time to search, have a s/a tax return to do + a shedload of other tedious essential bureaucracy :( ). | |
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| Morsy benched on 12:37 - Jan 22 with 219 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 12:28 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
Yet those are still just assumptions, guesswork, conclusions jumped to without any actual evidence.
I wonder what he (and one or two others) have said previously about being judgemental towards others without actual evidence or knowing them personally (I don't have time to search, have a s/a tax return to do + a shedload of other tedious essential bureaucracy :( ). |
No- there is a big difference between assumptions and reasonable inferences. | |
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| Morsy benched on 12:42 - Jan 22 with 200 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 12:37 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
No- there is a big difference between assumptions and reasonable inferences. |
I think they're unreasonable due to no actual evidence - eg SM may have chosen to keep stum to protect his family - which of course is also a guess from me!
Think we'll just have to agree to disagree. | |
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| Morsy benched on 12:49 - Jan 22 with 180 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 12:42 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
I think they're unreasonable due to no actual evidence - eg SM may have chosen to keep stum to protect his family - which of course is also a guess from me!
Think we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
Evidence:
He made a clear and obvious public choice to reject support of a positive equal rights campaign which the rest of the team and league were taking part in
He made no comment on why that was
He is a muslim- a religion well known for having anti-gay positions
Ergo its a reasonable inference in the absence of something else. | |
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| Morsy benched on 13:07 - Jan 22 with 149 views | bartyg |
| Morsy benched on 12:42 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
I think they're unreasonable due to no actual evidence - eg SM may have chosen to keep stum to protect his family - which of course is also a guess from me!
Think we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
He didn't keep schtum, it's a political statement in itself. There is no neutral option in this binary.
I really don't understand why people are so aggressively defending him. I can make the reasonable assumptions that he is homophobic whilst still thinking he was an asset to the football club. My personal gripes are that the club didn't handle the situation better- there should have been repercussions for Morsy, and a statement standing by LGBTQ+ town stakeholders. |  | | |
| Morsy benched on 13:11 - Jan 22 with 134 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 13:07 - Jan 22 by bartyg |
He didn't keep schtum, it's a political statement in itself. There is no neutral option in this binary.
I really don't understand why people are so aggressively defending him. I can make the reasonable assumptions that he is homophobic whilst still thinking he was an asset to the football club. My personal gripes are that the club didn't handle the situation better- there should have been repercussions for Morsy, and a statement standing by LGBTQ+ town stakeholders. |
People are entitled to their views. Repercussions would be entirely innappropriate. And it is plainly right to say that it is probably more complicated than just shouting "homophobe". Strong religous convictions are hard to shake, as are religous consequences or problems for family as a result of not being seen to toe a religous line. To that extent, Ryorry is absolutely right- there are nuances and it is unfair to ignore them.
You are right on the broader point though, that actively not taking part when everyone else is, is a statement. | |
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| Morsy benched on 13:19 - Jan 22 with 93 views | bartyg |
| Morsy benched on 13:11 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
People are entitled to their views. Repercussions would be entirely innappropriate. And it is plainly right to say that it is probably more complicated than just shouting "homophobe". Strong religous convictions are hard to shake, as are religous consequences or problems for family as a result of not being seen to toe a religous line. To that extent, Ryorry is absolutely right- there are nuances and it is unfair to ignore them.
You are right on the broader point though, that actively not taking part when everyone else is, is a statement. |
Whilst I understand that he can have personal views (as long as they are not discriminatory) in this case he is representing the club publicly.
As I said, I'm surprised the club didn't distance themselves more, and it's a bit of a shameful stain on what has otherwise been a lovely few seasons. | | | |
| Morsy benched on 13:30 - Jan 22 with 67 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Morsy benched on 13:19 - Jan 22 by bartyg |
Whilst I understand that he can have personal views (as long as they are not discriminatory) in this case he is representing the club publicly.
As I said, I'm surprised the club didn't distance themselves more, and it's a bit of a shameful stain on what has otherwise been a lovely few seasons. |
Thats the tricky bit though isnt it?
He can have all the personal discriminatory views he likes, if he doesn;t act on them.
And whilst he was representing the club publically, he wasnt employed to wave a flag for LGBTQ causes. Big difference between actively coming out with some awful statement and declining to promote something having been put in an awkward position by a league wide campaign.
I dont think many people really noticed outside of this board, so Im not sure it was a stain. | |
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| Morsy benched on 13:33 - Jan 22 with 55 views | J2BLUE |
| Morsy benched on 13:30 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Thats the tricky bit though isnt it?
He can have all the personal discriminatory views he likes, if he doesn;t act on them.
And whilst he was representing the club publically, he wasnt employed to wave a flag for LGBTQ causes. Big difference between actively coming out with some awful statement and declining to promote something having been put in an awkward position by a league wide campaign.
I dont think many people really noticed outside of this board, so Im not sure it was a stain. |
Like everything else, it only has meaning if you have a choice.
Personally I think this thread should be allowed to peacefully drop of the page with people agreeing to disagree. He's gone. He's been back to PR. It's been done to death. |  |
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| Morsy benched on 13:34 - Jan 22 with 46 views | eireblue |
| Morsy benched on 13:11 - Jan 22 by redrickstuhaart |
People are entitled to their views. Repercussions would be entirely innappropriate. And it is plainly right to say that it is probably more complicated than just shouting "homophobe". Strong religous convictions are hard to shake, as are religous consequences or problems for family as a result of not being seen to toe a religous line. To that extent, Ryorry is absolutely right- there are nuances and it is unfair to ignore them.
You are right on the broader point though, that actively not taking part when everyone else is, is a statement. |
Adults are adults.
There are plenty of people in circumstances that will go against bigoted views formed by previous generations and current family members, or even what a desert tribe wrote down hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
An intuition pump that maybe or may not be helpful.
There are references in one or two of the various desert tribes books, about slaves, and being able to treat them differently to other humans.
You will see items in the news about modern slavery, whereby people have been physically abused, locked up and mistreated, but well within the bounds of what was in those books from a fair while back.
I don’t think a person, would be able to say today, look m’lud, I am mostly devote in my religious following, yeah my family thinks it is okay to treat slaves differently to other human beings…… this book says I can, what’s the issue….
If there was today, a “let’s show our support for anti-modern slavery by wearing an arm band”, I don’t think that is a problem for anyone.
If I didn’t wear an armband, it doesn’t mean I own slaves, or thrash the ones I or my family own….or even that I would treat a slave differently…
But…you know….its a weird thing to explicitly not support
Now,
There are references in one or two of the various desert tribes books, about Homosexuality…. |  | | |
| Morsy benched on 13:36 - Jan 22 with 34 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Morsy benched on 10:11 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
Signing for a club which might then later change its sponsorship/shirt logos isn’t a player’s choice.
Even if a betting company were the sponsor at the time of signing, if the player wasn’t being offered any other contract with alternative clubs, what are they supposed to do - jack in their career? |
"Signing for a club which might then later change its sponsorship/shirt logos isn’t a player’s choice."
No, but choosing to wear it is. He could have chose not to. |  |
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| Morsy benched on 13:41 - Jan 22 with 20 views | Ryorry |
| Morsy benched on 13:36 - Jan 22 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
"Signing for a club which might then later change its sponsorship/shirt logos isn’t a player’s choice."
No, but choosing to wear it is. He could have chose not to. |
What a bizarre take - how on earth can a player play for the club and not wear the same shirt as other team members??! | |
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| Morsy benched on 13:48 - Jan 22 with 8 views | eireblue |
| Morsy benched on 13:41 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
What a bizarre take - how on earth can a player play for the club and not wear the same shirt as other team members??! |
Yeah, it must be nigh on impossible to just create another shirt without a logo, I mean is that even possible, even with modern day AI. | | | |
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