| Starmer is a dead man walking 12:37 - Feb 4 with 16601 views | hype313 |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 17:18 - Feb 4 with 1149 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 17:06 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
Haha. Good on you for being a sport about it.
But don't agree it's rewriting history - that was simply the media trying to get everyone to pretend Starmer project was 1997 again.
And quite funny to talk about democracy. There's not much democratic about an industrial wrecking campaign from within the same party to prevent Corbyn winning in 2017, nor is there in the purging of the left, sewing up of the Labour MP selection process and imposing candidates on local parties, or lying to win the leadership. Remember Starmer's pledges?
Centrists are going to have to own it I'm afraid. This is on them. Now we get Wes then a Reform majority gov.
Emily Maitlis, Ian Dunt, The Rest is Politics, James O'Brien, Matt Forde, Margaret Hodge, Change UK, Rory Stewart, 'a kinder, gentler politics', Alan Johnson,... Your boy took a hell of a beating! [Post edited 4 Feb 17:07]
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Nicely done, but don't forget to throw in David "Zack Polanski" Paulden's Green Party going full binary against the Racist party to add some extra energy to the next GE in order to get the voting numbers up and convince the people that they live in a thriving democracy. |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 17:21 - Feb 4 with 1122 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 14:37 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
There's no such thing as 'Starmer's Labour' though.
There was only the Labour right, New Labour, Mandelson's cabal. They've even told you - 'it's like the Docklands railway - the PM thinks he's sitting at the front driving but he's not it's us'.
Starmer an empty vessel full of ambition and nothing else.
Boris eating some cake looks quaint compared to all this. |
Boris presiding over a zombie government, facilitating financial corruption and cronyism, failing tens of thousands of victims through inept Covid responses, furthering the interests of hostile powers and inflicting the largest act of political self-harm doesn’t look so quaint though. I’ve always thought what brought him down wasn’t a patch on his other failures, but it took a relatable event I suppose.
As rubbish as this government is, a lot of people seem very quick to forget just how bad things were. It’s just unfortunate our system provided us with such bad choices at the same time. We need better from politicians (whether we deserve it is another matter!). |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 17:22 - Feb 4 with 1114 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 17:06 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
Haha. Good on you for being a sport about it.
But don't agree it's rewriting history - that was simply the media trying to get everyone to pretend Starmer project was 1997 again.
And quite funny to talk about democracy. There's not much democratic about an industrial wrecking campaign from within the same party to prevent Corbyn winning in 2017, nor is there in the purging of the left, sewing up of the Labour MP selection process and imposing candidates on local parties, or lying to win the leadership. Remember Starmer's pledges?
Centrists are going to have to own it I'm afraid. This is on them. Now we get Wes then a Reform majority gov.
Emily Maitlis, Ian Dunt, The Rest is Politics, James O'Brien, Matt Forde, Margaret Hodge, Change UK, Rory Stewart, 'a kinder, gentler politics', Alan Johnson,... Your boy took a hell of a beating! [Post edited 4 Feb 17:07]
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James O'Brien, the illiberal liberals' illiberal liberal. 
And even today, he couldn't resist a dig at anyone he regards as a Corbynista just because they didn't like what went on in the party under McSweeney. [Post edited 4 Feb 17:23]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:06 - Feb 4 with 967 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 16:51 - Feb 4 by WeWereZombies |
I am not going to pretend to understand too much of what Einstein wrote but I think I have got the gist of his quip a little clearer than you, in that you don't really appreciate the differences between Blair coming to power as a great relief to all who wanted rid of the Major government due to the remaining links with Thatcher and, as much as anything, the unexpected levels of sleaze. Whereas Starmer's landslide was due more to the Conservatives revolving door policy on leader selection and memory of a chaotic response to the pandemic. As far as the sleaze goes, well no one expected anything else of Johnson. |
I am referring more to the line of sleaze connecting Blair's New Labour to our current version as evidenced by DJR....what did people really expect. |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:12 - Feb 4 with 944 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 16:48 - Feb 4 by giant_stow |
Speaking as a centrist dad / rest is politics / James O'Brian type, I'm butt hurt!
I doubt my scummy comrades are all 'professional managerial class navel gazing' bods, but more pragmatists from all walks of live who'd have enough of both losing with Jez and some of his apparent priorities.
Your man had a fair run at it (which i voted for) but couldn't win even against the seriously weakened Tory party. Its called democracy - Jez's version of Labour couldn't persuade enough people to vote for it - Starmer's could. And don't say that's because of the vile media attacks poor old Jez faced - Starmer has had exactly the same from the get go.
This Mandleson stuff is terrible, no doubt and I think Starmer should probably go now, but lets not rewrite history. [Post edited 4 Feb 16:48]
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"Jez's version of Labour couldn't persuade enough people to vote for it - Starmer's could"
Labour vote by election
2017: 12,877,918
2019: 10,269,051
2024: 9,708,716 |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:15 - Feb 4 with 931 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 17:42 - Feb 4 by giant_stow |
Poor old James must be feeling it, so be kind.
(to continue the chat here...)
I don't blame the left (or any persuasion / denomination) feeling triumphant today. I just fear what might be coming at the next election and hope Labour can pick up the pieces swiftly.
I do think there's some truth in Starmer getting the Labour leadership somewhat deceitfully, so fair dos there. Just please remember what Starmer's mob replaced! |
Absolutely. It's horrific to think what might happen.
And indeed, despite being to the left of them, I voted as a Labour party member, for David Miliband, Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer because I thought they had the best chance of winning a general election. After all, I took the view that's there's no point in being a member of a political party if you don't get elected.
I suppose my hope was that once elected, the party might move a bit to the left, but Blair was proof that that was unlikely to be the case. [Post edited 4 Feb 18:17]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:17 - Feb 4 with 922 views | giant_stow |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:12 - Feb 4 by Clapham_Junction |
"Jez's version of Labour couldn't persuade enough people to vote for it - Starmer's could"
Labour vote by election
2017: 12,877,918
2019: 10,269,051
2024: 9,708,716 |
This one never makes sense to me tbh. What does a stat like *a* party's vote total say without the context of how other party's did in those elections? |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:21 - Feb 4 with 909 views | jas0999 |
Leadership challenge must be just round the corner. |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:32 - Feb 4 with 858 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:17 - Feb 4 by giant_stow |
This one never makes sense to me tbh. What does a stat like *a* party's vote total say without the context of how other party's did in those elections? |
labour seats:
2017: 262. outcome: tory government
2019: 202. outcome: tory government
2024: 411. outcome: labour government
2017 was a weird election. tories had a huge lead and assumed that they would stroll to victory over corbyn. corbyn's unpopularity was a large part of why the election was called then. the tory campaign was a car crash and people mostly voted for corbyn as a protest without ever believing he'd be pm. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:55 - Feb 4 with 822 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:26 - Feb 4 by MattinLondon |
I remember reading stories of Corbyn supporters making life difficult for those in the Labour Party who thought that he would make awful leader - and indeed he did.
Unfortunately politics now is all about believing in one all conquering ideology set from whoever the glorious leader is. Fundamentally, all parties need to have more than one chain of thought incorporating it or risk the party becoming weak.
Well that’s what I think.
Regarding Stramer - I had great hopes for him but instead he tried to court people who will never vote for Labour and then alienated many who wanted to have faith in him. I don’t regret voting for him.
I do think he’s a decent chap but his should go. |
As Peter Oborne said a year or so ago in relation more recent stories about Corbyn.
"Collectively they show that everything written in the papers about Jeremy Corbyn should be assumed false unless proved otherwise. It’s the wild west out there for the former Labour leader: any smear will do, however false and malicious, and Britain’s mainstream media is often ready to leap to attention."
I was secretary of my local Labour party during the Corbyn years, and we all got on well Corbynista or not.
And it was Labour Together who effectively purged the left from the Labour party, something that Corbyn in reverse never attempted, despite all the scare stories in the media. [Post edited 4 Feb 18:59]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:00 - Feb 4 with 806 views | Dubtractor |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:32 - Feb 4 by lowhouseblue |
labour seats:
2017: 262. outcome: tory government
2019: 202. outcome: tory government
2024: 411. outcome: labour government
2017 was a weird election. tories had a huge lead and assumed that they would stroll to victory over corbyn. corbyn's unpopularity was a large part of why the election was called then. the tory campaign was a car crash and people mostly voted for corbyn as a protest without ever believing he'd be pm. |
Corbyn's unpopularity still saw him as more popular than Starmer with the electorate though.
The big, frankly huge, difference in 2024 was that Reform split the right leaning vote. Let's be honest, no one who voted for Corbyn then changed to Reform! In fact I'd suggest it is more likely that Labour lost a lot of the Corbyn vote to the Greens:
2017 - 512,327
2019 - 835,597
2024 - 1,843,124
Starmer did what he needed to do to win in 2024, but let's not pretend it was a hugely popular choice.
I'd add that I think that Corbyn would have made a dreadful Prime Minister, but I think his unpopularity was more perceived by the media and political class than it was real with the actual electorate. [Post edited 4 Feb 19:09]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:09 - Feb 4 with 764 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:00 - Feb 4 by Dubtractor |
Corbyn's unpopularity still saw him as more popular than Starmer with the electorate though.
The big, frankly huge, difference in 2024 was that Reform split the right leaning vote. Let's be honest, no one who voted for Corbyn then changed to Reform! In fact I'd suggest it is more likely that Labour lost a lot of the Corbyn vote to the Greens:
2017 - 512,327
2019 - 835,597
2024 - 1,843,124
Starmer did what he needed to do to win in 2024, but let's not pretend it was a hugely popular choice.
I'd add that I think that Corbyn would have made a dreadful Prime Minister, but I think his unpopularity was more perceived by the media and political class than it was real with the actual electorate. [Post edited 4 Feb 19:09]
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the electoral context matters. a different leader in 2017 might even have won - although, again, the election was only called because the tories had a 20% lead based primarily on corbyn's unpopularity. the car crash that may then created is hard now to believe and largely explained the final numbers. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:11 - Feb 4 with 770 views | Dubtractor |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:09 - Feb 4 by lowhouseblue |
the electoral context matters. a different leader in 2017 might even have won - although, again, the election was only called because the tories had a 20% lead based primarily on corbyn's unpopularity. the car crash that may then created is hard now to believe and largely explained the final numbers. |
I would agree that May's campaign was sensationally bad and Corbyn, for all his faults, was a good campaigner. | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:14 - Feb 4 with 752 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:17 - Feb 4 by giant_stow |
This one never makes sense to me tbh. What does a stat like *a* party's vote total say without the context of how other party's did in those elections? |
Think it’s a stat showing that they lost the election?
A glorious defeat though, Dear Leader was second only to the universally popular and talented Teresa Maybot.
Footballing equivalent of Town losing the FA cup final, only the opposition wasn’t Man City, but Rochdale. [Post edited 4 Feb 19:15]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:18 - Feb 4 with 735 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:55 - Feb 4 by DJR |
As Peter Oborne said a year or so ago in relation more recent stories about Corbyn.
"Collectively they show that everything written in the papers about Jeremy Corbyn should be assumed false unless proved otherwise. It’s the wild west out there for the former Labour leader: any smear will do, however false and malicious, and Britain’s mainstream media is often ready to leap to attention."
I was secretary of my local Labour party during the Corbyn years, and we all got on well Corbynista or not.
And it was Labour Together who effectively purged the left from the Labour party, something that Corbyn in reverse never attempted, despite all the scare stories in the media. [Post edited 4 Feb 18:59]
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I have a couple of family members who were very active in the LP for their area. I don’t know how the structures worked but one of them had some sort of position in the local organisation I think. They were busy anyway; regular meetings, campaign, etc. It was Corbyn that inspired one of them to get into politics in the first place, although their adoration of him felt a bit cult-like tbh. Too much for me anyway.
But the point of my ramblings was that as soon as Starmer came in the central party started sending people to their meetings and undermining what they were doing and eventually started pushing people out. That was the end of it for them. I doubt they even voted Labour last election; they hate Starmer and his cabal with a passion and very much echo Oborne’s views (what a journey he’s been on too).
That’s all apropos of nothing except that I’m reminded of them every time those of you on here who had/have party membership talk about Starmer. But then the left has always been fractured, right back to its earliest beginnings; the Utopianists, Owenists, French Revolutionists, Marxists, gradualists like the Fabian Society, etc., etc… | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:20 - Feb 4 with 727 views | WD19 |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:21 - Feb 4 by jas0999 |
Leadership challenge must be just round the corner. |
Rayner has been finalising her shoe wardrobe do weeks in anticipation.
How refreshing it’s going to be to have a PM who starts as only mildly damaged goods. She has every chance of lasting almost until Christmas. |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:21 - Feb 4 with 719 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:09 - Feb 4 by lowhouseblue |
the electoral context matters. a different leader in 2017 might even have won - although, again, the election was only called because the tories had a 20% lead based primarily on corbyn's unpopularity. the car crash that may then created is hard now to believe and largely explained the final numbers. |
Welcome to Lowers' happy place. | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:26 - Feb 4 with 709 views | jasondozzell |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 18:26 - Feb 4 by MattinLondon |
I remember reading stories of Corbyn supporters making life difficult for those in the Labour Party who thought that he would make awful leader - and indeed he did.
Unfortunately politics now is all about believing in one all conquering ideology set from whoever the glorious leader is. Fundamentally, all parties need to have more than one chain of thought incorporating it or risk the party becoming weak.
Well that’s what I think.
Regarding Stramer - I had great hopes for him but instead he tried to court people who will never vote for Labour and then alienated many who wanted to have faith in him. I don’t regret voting for him.
I do think he’s a decent chap but his should go. |
Your first point is just totally false. If anything, Corbyn was far too accommodating to the wreckers!
And he was never the ideologue he was painted as. Moderate democratic socialism was what he was proposing. 'Glorious leader ' - you've swallowed the Maitlis O'Brien nonsense.
I don't think Corbyn would say he was perfect. But he stood for something other than himself.
What politics needs is people like him with principles. This disingenuous call for the 'middle ground' and 'pragmatism' it's merely a cover for the void at the heart of centrism.
Anyone having great hopes for Starmer clearly wasn't paying much attention! [Post edited 4 Feb 19:27]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:34 - Feb 4 with 673 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:26 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
Your first point is just totally false. If anything, Corbyn was far too accommodating to the wreckers!
And he was never the ideologue he was painted as. Moderate democratic socialism was what he was proposing. 'Glorious leader ' - you've swallowed the Maitlis O'Brien nonsense.
I don't think Corbyn would say he was perfect. But he stood for something other than himself.
What politics needs is people like him with principles. This disingenuous call for the 'middle ground' and 'pragmatism' it's merely a cover for the void at the heart of centrism.
Anyone having great hopes for Starmer clearly wasn't paying much attention! [Post edited 4 Feb 19:27]
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“What politics needs is people like him with principles. This disingenuous call for the 'middle ground' and 'pragmatism' it's merely a cover for the void at the heart of centrism.”
In case it’s eluded you from your high horse, the centre ground is the only one that is ever elected. Which are his favourite principles of yours, a u-turn on EU membership, or earning a bit of a slush fund from the Iranian State on their propaganda channel.
At the end of the day nobody in the wider electorate cares about the petty internal machinations of the Labour Party. You may not like that but outside your bubble it’s all just noise. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:36 - Feb 4 with 661 views | jasondozzell |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:34 - Feb 4 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“What politics needs is people like him with principles. This disingenuous call for the 'middle ground' and 'pragmatism' it's merely a cover for the void at the heart of centrism.”
In case it’s eluded you from your high horse, the centre ground is the only one that is ever elected. Which are his favourite principles of yours, a u-turn on EU membership, or earning a bit of a slush fund from the Iranian State on their propaganda channel.
At the end of the day nobody in the wider electorate cares about the petty internal machinations of the Labour Party. You may not like that but outside your bubble it’s all just noise. |
Haha good try but even I can tell your heart isn't in it.
Centrists are going to have to own this. It's on them. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:50 - Feb 4 with 626 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:20 - Feb 4 by WD19 |
Rayner has been finalising her shoe wardrobe do weeks in anticipation.
How refreshing it’s going to be to have a PM who starts as only mildly damaged goods. She has every chance of lasting almost until Christmas. |
Isn't too soon after her resignation to have any chance of success? The tax stuff will follow her around in the media and from the opposition.
My wife is a Labour party member and was a big fan of Rayner but felt very let down by the mess she got herself in over CGT.
You also have to add the Trump factor. Regardless of our own personal feelings about Trump, we still need the USA as a trading and strategic ally. I can't see Raynor having the diplomatic skills or the gravitas to deal with Trump.
I think Wes Streeting is the person most likely to carefuly tread that path. [Post edited 4 Feb 19:50]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:56 - Feb 4 with 584 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:36 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
Haha good try but even I can tell your heart isn't in it.
Centrists are going to have to own this. It's on them. |
I guess we need to thank you for cheerleading someone less popular than Teresa May, and giving us Boris and all the other useless w”””s that followed.
When dogma > electoral success. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:58 - Feb 4 with 583 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:26 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
Your first point is just totally false. If anything, Corbyn was far too accommodating to the wreckers!
And he was never the ideologue he was painted as. Moderate democratic socialism was what he was proposing. 'Glorious leader ' - you've swallowed the Maitlis O'Brien nonsense.
I don't think Corbyn would say he was perfect. But he stood for something other than himself.
What politics needs is people like him with principles. This disingenuous call for the 'middle ground' and 'pragmatism' it's merely a cover for the void at the heart of centrism.
Anyone having great hopes for Starmer clearly wasn't paying much attention! [Post edited 4 Feb 19:27]
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Just so long as you ignore the "friends from Hamas and Hezbollah", the “idea that an organisation [Hamas] that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region should be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is really a big mistake", the blood money from Iranian state TV, the praise of Iran's, “Tolerance and acceptance of other faiths, traditions and ethnic groupings in Iran.” (yeah try telling that to the Kurds or the 30,000+ Iranians murdered this month) and the guilty verdict by the EHRC of "unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination over antisemitism within its ranks", then he'd be the very epitome of modern democratic socialism.
How soon people forget. Or ignore. [Post edited 4 Feb 20:13]
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