| This Saints spying thing 11:51 - May 12 with 7827 views | bluefunk |
Looks like it’s a real headache for the EFL and the disciplinary commitee, Southampton have asked for more time, which is exactly what the authorities don’t have.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/fo
It won’t be the first time they’ve done this, maybe explains their successful rise up the table. Middlesbrough apparently want sporting sanctions rather than a fine, (but then they would wouldn’t they). |  | | |  |
| This Saints spying thing on 06:39 - May 13 with 1034 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| This Saints spying thing on 06:31 - May 13 by Blue_Heath |
Boro should go to Wembley and Saints not but as you say will never happen.
Saints will go up and avoid any sanction due to being in a different league. |
The football regulator needs to ensure that there is continuity of sanctions, so that any penalties for misdemeanours in one league are carried through to another league if the guilty team are promoted or relegated. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 07:25 - May 13 with 940 views | StokieBlue |
| This Saints spying thing on 06:31 - May 13 by Blue_Heath |
Boro should go to Wembley and Saints not but as you say will never happen.
Saints will go up and avoid any sanction due to being in a different league. |
Pretty sure this is no longer the case, they agreed at the start of this season too implement sanctions applied by each other after the original Leicester debacle.
SB |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 08:02 - May 13 with 898 views | Churchman |
| This Saints spying thing on 19:18 - May 12 by Bellevue_Blue |
Because if the EFL get it wrong, they risk a law suit that could borderline bankrupt the governing body.
And without any precedent, Southampton could legally argue a whole load of things that might create doubt in a court.
I agree it's binary in terms of cheating, but what is not binary is the level of advantage that they received and therefore the benefit they received.
For the EFL to throw them out and it be successfully upheld, you'd have to prove that the advantage Southampton received was so significant that they won the tie based on the information they received (The first leg would prove that is probably not the case) or if new information comes to light, that they did for a sustained period of time that it gave them a considerable advantage in the League.
If the EFL failed to prove that, then Southampton could question the punishment and attach the loss of earnings to that.
IMO the risk is far too large for the EFL without any existing precedent. If Southampton do go up, they'd be better off trying to impose a fine or points deduction so large that it essentially wipes out the benefit of going up. |
The problem with this is that you can cast doubt on the impact of just about any rule when it comes to sport. If Southampton were found guilty yet no punishment is invoked, there are no rules and clubs like Southampton, a big fish in EFL terms, can do as they please.
This is the problem with professional football in this country. Up a level clubs are doing just that, whether it’s West Ham fielding ineligible players to gain advantage (Tevez) or Man City sticking two fingers up at any rules.
The point is that the Championship is not Southampton’s competition. If guilty I’d throw them out of the play offs. If they then threatened legal action I’d threaten them with Football League expulsion. If that collapsed the EFL, that could end any non Premier League clubs chance of promotion as I suspect it might give the EPL the chance to create the closed shop they desire. That would exclude Southampton.
This is a doomsday scenario that won’t happen of course, but what It comes down to is who governs the game. [Post edited 13 May 8:14]
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| This Saints spying thing on 08:14 - May 13 with 851 views | norfsufblue |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:02 - May 13 by Churchman |
The problem with this is that you can cast doubt on the impact of just about any rule when it comes to sport. If Southampton were found guilty yet no punishment is invoked, there are no rules and clubs like Southampton, a big fish in EFL terms, can do as they please.
This is the problem with professional football in this country. Up a level clubs are doing just that, whether it’s West Ham fielding ineligible players to gain advantage (Tevez) or Man City sticking two fingers up at any rules.
The point is that the Championship is not Southampton’s competition. If guilty I’d throw them out of the play offs. If they then threatened legal action I’d threaten them with Football League expulsion. If that collapsed the EFL, that could end any non Premier League clubs chance of promotion as I suspect it might give the EPL the chance to create the closed shop they desire. That would exclude Southampton.
This is a doomsday scenario that won’t happen of course, but what It comes down to is who governs the game. [Post edited 13 May 8:14]
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The thing that may impact them most whatever division they are in is a years transfer embargo or at the very least a one window embargo maybe. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:19 - May 13 with 837 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:02 - May 13 by Churchman |
The problem with this is that you can cast doubt on the impact of just about any rule when it comes to sport. If Southampton were found guilty yet no punishment is invoked, there are no rules and clubs like Southampton, a big fish in EFL terms, can do as they please.
This is the problem with professional football in this country. Up a level clubs are doing just that, whether it’s West Ham fielding ineligible players to gain advantage (Tevez) or Man City sticking two fingers up at any rules.
The point is that the Championship is not Southampton’s competition. If guilty I’d throw them out of the play offs. If they then threatened legal action I’d threaten them with Football League expulsion. If that collapsed the EFL, that could end any non Premier League clubs chance of promotion as I suspect it might give the EPL the chance to create the closed shop they desire. That would exclude Southampton.
This is a doomsday scenario that won’t happen of course, but what It comes down to is who governs the game. [Post edited 13 May 8:14]
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You've hit the nail on the head. It's a problem with the regulators and a set of rules that were created in 1992 which means we are continually reactive to problems instead of proactive.
Once again we find ourselves in a position where the EFL has a rule around spying and the Premier League does not which is absolutely crazy given it happened in 2019 now it will make this that much harder to dish out a punishment.
I for the life of me can't understand why they don't just operate under one set of rules for all clubs. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:20 - May 13 with 830 views | Churchman |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:14 - May 13 by norfsufblue |
The thing that may impact them most whatever division they are in is a years transfer embargo or at the very least a one window embargo maybe. |
It might. But for £ 200m they’d take that wouldn’t they? Accept next season as a write off, trouser the cash and walk the Championship the following season. Not a real outcome for anyone because they’d still have profited by their actions. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:24 - May 13 with 805 views | Crawfordsboot |
| This Saints spying thing on 12:21 - May 12 by Bellevue_Blue |
Hopefully Saints go up, get slapped with a big old fine that hinders their transfer budget and get a points deduction to start the season. |
But they would then get parachute payments - so no they need to remain in the Championship! |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:35 - May 13 with 770 views | hype313 |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:14 - May 13 by norfsufblue |
The thing that may impact them most whatever division they are in is a years transfer embargo or at the very least a one window embargo maybe. |
Although that would just prove cheaters do prosper. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 08:44 - May 13 with 743 views | Crawfordsboot |
| This Saints spying thing on 21:07 - May 12 by Bellevue_Blue |
I was directly referring to kicking them out entirely. Bans/ points deductions obviously a much more realistic punishment given what you raised and the reporting over the last few days. |
Except that even if they come straight back down they get the income and parachute payments | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:49 - May 13 with 715 views | Radlett_blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:19 - May 13 by Bellevue_Blue |
You've hit the nail on the head. It's a problem with the regulators and a set of rules that were created in 1992 which means we are continually reactive to problems instead of proactive.
Once again we find ourselves in a position where the EFL has a rule around spying and the Premier League does not which is absolutely crazy given it happened in 2019 now it will make this that much harder to dish out a punishment.
I for the life of me can't understand why they don't just operate under one set of rules for all clubs. |
They haven't operated under the same rules ever since the Premier League split from the Football League in 1992 and they aren't going to start doing that now. They are totally separate organisations. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 08:52 - May 13 with 704 views | MJallday |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:02 - May 13 by Churchman |
The problem with this is that you can cast doubt on the impact of just about any rule when it comes to sport. If Southampton were found guilty yet no punishment is invoked, there are no rules and clubs like Southampton, a big fish in EFL terms, can do as they please.
This is the problem with professional football in this country. Up a level clubs are doing just that, whether it’s West Ham fielding ineligible players to gain advantage (Tevez) or Man City sticking two fingers up at any rules.
The point is that the Championship is not Southampton’s competition. If guilty I’d throw them out of the play offs. If they then threatened legal action I’d threaten them with Football League expulsion. If that collapsed the EFL, that could end any non Premier League clubs chance of promotion as I suspect it might give the EPL the chance to create the closed shop they desire. That would exclude Southampton.
This is a doomsday scenario that won’t happen of course, but what It comes down to is who governs the game. [Post edited 13 May 8:14]
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you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching.
tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble.
by the way, not condoning the behaviour . .
lets face it, the EFL arnt going to kick southampton out of the PO final. points deduction is
possible, but only an issue if southampton stay in league . fines also an issued but tbh for a club of southamptons size - unless is a 7 figure amount (which it wont be) - its kinda meh |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 08:58 - May 13 with 673 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:49 - May 13 by Radlett_blue |
They haven't operated under the same rules ever since the Premier League split from the Football League in 1992 and they aren't going to start doing that now. They are totally separate organisations. |
I'm well aware. I said I can't understand why they don't just operate under one set of rules for all clubs and raised the fact that they have different sets of rules as an issue .... | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:04 - May 13 with 644 views | southnorfolkblue |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:35 - May 13 by hype313 |
Although that would just prove cheaters do prosper. |
There’s precedent for that though. Bournemouth breached FFP the season they got promoted to the PL. The punishment was a £7.6 million fine….best money they’ve ever shelled out I reckon | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 09:13 - May 13 with 601 views | Churchman |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:52 - May 13 by MJallday |
you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching.
tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble.
by the way, not condoning the behaviour . .
lets face it, the EFL arnt going to kick southampton out of the PO final. points deduction is
possible, but only an issue if southampton stay in league . fines also an issued but tbh for a club of southamptons size - unless is a 7 figure amount (which it wont be) - its kinda meh |
I doubt they gained any advantage that can be proved, but I don’t think that’s the point. They flouted the rules and tried to gain advantaged. On a melodramatic scale, attempted murder is still a crime.
If you are not going to chuck them out of the play offs, which they won’t, fine them say £150m and redistribute it through the football league. Southampton will reap far more than that from the Premier League, but will have something to think about. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:13 - May 13 with 598 views | WeWereZombies |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:49 - May 13 by Radlett_blue |
They haven't operated under the same rules ever since the Premier League split from the Football League in 1992 and they aren't going to start doing that now. They are totally separate organisations. |
Another reason for a football regulator then, without one the predominant sport in England and Wales (and I think a football regulator should have jurisdiction in Scotland and Northern Ireland too) is open to manipulation by unscrupulous individuals, owners and club hierarchies. Tragic that Ashton chose to meet with a political extremist in the hope of stopping the development of an office which might actually serve Ipswich Town's interests if another Southampton type spygate scenario occurs. |  |
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| This Saints spying thing on 09:21 - May 13 with 563 views | Radlett_blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:13 - May 13 by Churchman |
I doubt they gained any advantage that can be proved, but I don’t think that’s the point. They flouted the rules and tried to gain advantaged. On a melodramatic scale, attempted murder is still a crime.
If you are not going to chuck them out of the play offs, which they won’t, fine them say £150m and redistribute it through the football league. Southampton will reap far more than that from the Premier League, but will have something to think about. |
A fine of that size would be unprecedented & surely challenged in the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
I can see why the FL are in a bond over this one - they would prefer a "sporting sanction" to a fine, but a points deduction is impossible & how do you turn the whole play-off system inside out? I'm sure they were praying for a Boro win last night, but Saints are now hot favourites to beat Hull. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 09:24 - May 13 with 549 views | CastroSito |
Deduct them 6 points this season.
They finish below boro. The 0-0 is chalked off as Southampton should have had the home tie first and they have to go to the riverside with a 2-1 first leg lead.
Not ideal, but it could work. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:25 - May 13 with 545 views | _CliveBaker_ |
| This Saints spying thing on 08:52 - May 13 by MJallday |
you have to ask, how much advantage did a bloke in a bush with a telescope give southampton? it cant be a massive amount surely? he's more likely to have stood in dog poo than understood complex tactics based on a small observation period watching.
tbh they'd have been better off watching southamptons actual matches on tv and sussing it out from that. and got themselves in less trouble.
by the way, not condoning the behaviour . .
lets face it, the EFL arnt going to kick southampton out of the PO final. points deduction is
possible, but only an issue if southampton stay in league . fines also an issued but tbh for a club of southamptons size - unless is a 7 figure amount (which it wont be) - its kinda meh |
I'm not sure you can quantify how much of an advantage, but there certainly is one. They will have known Hackney was still out for example, probably seen the starting XI and shape, the threats they were working on. It is an advantage hence they wanted to break a rule to do it.
Its different but Swindon were kicked out of the EFL trophy this year and their result against Luton overturned due to fielding a player who was serving a ban, and another off the bench who wasn't named on the team sheet due to an admin error. Normally in such cases it would've been a fine, but my point is you can't quantify how much of an impact those selections had vs. alternatives but the conclusion was to overturn the result.
If we were in Boro's shoes I'd be expecting the result to be overturned tbh, I think its really poor form from Southampton and they can't have any complaints if they're guilty of this and that's the conclusion. |  | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:30 - May 13 with 511 views | Radlett_blue |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:25 - May 13 by _CliveBaker_ |
I'm not sure you can quantify how much of an advantage, but there certainly is one. They will have known Hackney was still out for example, probably seen the starting XI and shape, the threats they were working on. It is an advantage hence they wanted to break a rule to do it.
Its different but Swindon were kicked out of the EFL trophy this year and their result against Luton overturned due to fielding a player who was serving a ban, and another off the bench who wasn't named on the team sheet due to an admin error. Normally in such cases it would've been a fine, but my point is you can't quantify how much of an impact those selections had vs. alternatives but the conclusion was to overturn the result.
If we were in Boro's shoes I'd be expecting the result to be overturned tbh, I think its really poor form from Southampton and they can't have any complaints if they're guilty of this and that's the conclusion. |
They have 10 days before the play off final & while I don't know the full facts (e.g. was this just a numpty with a phone camera trying to get a peek) but if it was orchestrated with Saints management's full knowledge, they should be thrown out & Boro put in the final. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 09:32 - May 13 with 504 views | SheffordBlue |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:13 - May 13 by WeWereZombies |
Another reason for a football regulator then, without one the predominant sport in England and Wales (and I think a football regulator should have jurisdiction in Scotland and Northern Ireland too) is open to manipulation by unscrupulous individuals, owners and club hierarchies. Tragic that Ashton chose to meet with a political extremist in the hope of stopping the development of an office which might actually serve Ipswich Town's interests if another Southampton type spygate scenario occurs. |
Pretty sure this type of thing isn't intended to be within the remit of the football regulator and none of the articles I've seen about it have suggested they would be either making the rules around this or have any involvement in deciding on punishments. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 09:33 - May 13 with 495 views | Churchman |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:21 - May 13 by Radlett_blue |
A fine of that size would be unprecedented & surely challenged in the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
I can see why the FL are in a bond over this one - they would prefer a "sporting sanction" to a fine, but a points deduction is impossible & how do you turn the whole play-off system inside out? I'm sure they were praying for a Boro win last night, but Saints are now hot favourites to beat Hull. |
On what basis would it be challenged? They tried to get an advantage by cheating, if found guilty. Should that be rewarded? Precedents are there to be set. £150m is chicken feed to a club like say Chelsea or Liverpool - 1.3x an Izak. It’s one season’s transfers for us and of course Southampton.
I’d say £150m would be them getting off lightly. | | | |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:48 - May 13 with 442 views | MJallday |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:33 - May 13 by Churchman |
On what basis would it be challenged? They tried to get an advantage by cheating, if found guilty. Should that be rewarded? Precedents are there to be set. £150m is chicken feed to a club like say Chelsea or Liverpool - 1.3x an Izak. It’s one season’s transfers for us and of course Southampton.
I’d say £150m would be them getting off lightly. |
£150m is bananas for a club of any size, let alone southampton. it would bankrupt them overnight.
Even Man City and Liverpool would bauk at that. remember most of their purchases are not like going into a sweetie shop - theyre split over several years. theres very few clubs in the world that could sustain a £150 m one off hit - and even if attempted, it would certainly end up in courts for years to come
remember fines have to be proportional to the crime. And all thats happened here is a (alleged) tactical advantage - and thats subjective at best - its not guaranteed the win by any stretch.
Kicking them out of the PO final would also result in a legal challenge. i dare say hull would be ok with this though :)
IMO - its much more likely a points deduction, either applied in this league if they fail to win, or the EPL if they can persuade them to apply it. They might get a token fine (perhaps 500k) -but i dont see anything more than that happening.
people expecting them to be kicked out of the PO final will be sorely disssapointed.
I suspect a fine would be more in the region of £500k (if anything) - but £150m? dont make me laugh. | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 10:44 - May 13 with 322 views | WeWereZombies |
| This Saints spying thing on 09:32 - May 13 by SheffordBlue |
Pretty sure this type of thing isn't intended to be within the remit of the football regulator and none of the articles I've seen about it have suggested they would be either making the rules around this or have any involvement in deciding on punishments. |
Not within the remit yet, but we are in a consultation period as the scope and shape of the job get defined. The disconnect between the Premier League and the lower tiers has already been highlighted by the difficulties in imposing penalties on Leicester (and may have contributed more to their demise to the third tier this season than what would have happened if a timely set of penalties had been imposed whilst they were top tier and been able to recover to at least the position of a yo-yo club.) Do we have to kick the can down the road at the behest of the ambulance chasers until all the leagues are full of clubs in a Jarndyce and Jarndyce type scenario ? | |
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| This Saints spying thing on 10:55 - May 13 with 273 views | SheffordBlue |
| This Saints spying thing on 10:44 - May 13 by WeWereZombies |
Not within the remit yet, but we are in a consultation period as the scope and shape of the job get defined. The disconnect between the Premier League and the lower tiers has already been highlighted by the difficulties in imposing penalties on Leicester (and may have contributed more to their demise to the third tier this season than what would have happened if a timely set of penalties had been imposed whilst they were top tier and been able to recover to at least the position of a yo-yo club.) Do we have to kick the can down the road at the behest of the ambulance chasers until all the leagues are full of clubs in a Jarndyce and Jarndyce type scenario ? |
Even in the most ambitious version of the regulator this would fall under 'competition rules' which will remain with the EFL/Prem.
I don't think anyone is proposing that the regulator get involved with this aspect of the game.
Whether it should or not might be a different story/question. [Post edited 13 May 10:55]
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| This Saints spying thing on 10:57 - May 13 with 257 views | WeWereZombies |
| This Saints spying thing on 10:55 - May 13 by SheffordBlue |
Even in the most ambitious version of the regulator this would fall under 'competition rules' which will remain with the EFL/Prem.
I don't think anyone is proposing that the regulator get involved with this aspect of the game.
Whether it should or not might be a different story/question. [Post edited 13 May 10:55]
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I am.
However, I am not in a position to have a voice in the matter...unless someone from the owners wants to propose me as an Ashton replacement... | |
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