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They know they don't deserve to be there, excellent stuff here, especially from 33 minutes in with the Boro caller, as usual, the excellent Simon Jordan nails it.
Please Hull save football! We can't let playoff losers get promoted!
ONE Boro fan on this call... the second one completely disagrees.
And again (no idea why you're so passionate about this that you felt the need to start yet another thread) - no-one thinks Boro deserve to be in the final in terms of performance. But that doesn't mean Hull deserve a £200m windfull and a place in the Prem either! This is the same Hull that scraped 6th and were well behind everyone else in the play off picture.
A Hull v Boro final is the better of two evils. Unless you can explain why Hull should benefit so massively from a situation they weren't even involved in?
Jordan's argument seems to revolve around the fact that Boro battered Soton in the first leg (which they did) and therefore Soton got no advantage from their cheating (which he accepts)
He lays the failure of Boro to beat Soton at the feet of Boro and therefore they do not deserve to benefit from Soton cheating.
But - and it is a huge but - we can never know what would have happened without the cheating. For example did Soton defend any set pieces based on any info gathered and therefore limit Boro's scoring opportunities from those?
Of course we can never know - but what we do know is that it is fairly standard to kick out a side from a cup game if they play an illegible player. A small infringement is treated as destroying the sporting integrity of the game - therefore the team that has erred is kicked out - irrespective of the score. You can win 3-0 and bring on an illegible sub for the last min and you are still kicked out.
So once we accept Soton are rightly punished given the sporting integrity of the results in the playoffs were compromised - Boro can't possibly get a fair result unless they are reinstated.
Or would you also look to ban both teams in the cup scenario described?
Boro - yep they get lucky for sure, but anything else is to simply ignore the wrong done to them, which can only be put right by them going to the final.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 07:28 - May 21 by The_Flashing_Smile
ONE Boro fan on this call... the second one completely disagrees.
And again (no idea why you're so passionate about this that you felt the need to start yet another thread) - no-one thinks Boro deserve to be in the final in terms of performance. But that doesn't mean Hull deserve a £200m windfull and a place in the Prem either! This is the same Hull that scraped 6th and were well behind everyone else in the play off picture.
A Hull v Boro final is the better of two evils. Unless you can explain why Hull should benefit so massively from a situation they weren't even involved in?
He could say; because Hull didn't lose? Joey Joe sure is passionately anti 'Boro getting there though, I would agree! But you are very Pro as well, aren't you?! And there is nothing wrong with either of your views, really, 'cos we are all Towan fans Up the Farkin Towan
I'm not sure what's weirder, your obsession with Boro rightly being reinstated as a result of their opponent being disqualified for cheating or you describing Simon Jordan as "excellent". He's a toupee on a potato that's been electrocuted into being barely sentient.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:29 - May 21 by Lion
He could say; because Hull didn't lose? Joey Joe sure is passionately anti 'Boro getting there though, I would agree! But you are very Pro as well, aren't you?! And there is nothing wrong with either of your views, really, 'cos we are all Towan fans Up the Farkin Towan
Explain where Dolly is 'very pro'
"no-one thinks Boro deserve to be in the final in terms of performance. But that doesn't mean Hull deserve a £200m windfull and a place in the Prem either! This is the same Hull that scraped 6th and were well behind everyone else in the play off picture."
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:32 - May 21 by Herbivore
I'm not sure what's weirder, your obsession with Boro rightly being reinstated as a result of their opponent being disqualified for cheating or you describing Simon Jordan as "excellent". He's a toupee on a potato that's been electrocuted into being barely sentient.
He also has the air of a man who has approved some hiding in the bushes himself in the past and he's worried that this might be the start of an avalanche.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:29 - May 21 by Lion
He could say; because Hull didn't lose? Joey Joe sure is passionately anti 'Boro getting there though, I would agree! But you are very Pro as well, aren't you?! And there is nothing wrong with either of your views, really, 'cos we are all Towan fans Up the Farkin Towan
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:24 - May 21 by bluelagos
Jordan's argument seems to revolve around the fact that Boro battered Soton in the first leg (which they did) and therefore Soton got no advantage from their cheating (which he accepts)
He lays the failure of Boro to beat Soton at the feet of Boro and therefore they do not deserve to benefit from Soton cheating.
But - and it is a huge but - we can never know what would have happened without the cheating. For example did Soton defend any set pieces based on any info gathered and therefore limit Boro's scoring opportunities from those?
Of course we can never know - but what we do know is that it is fairly standard to kick out a side from a cup game if they play an illegible player. A small infringement is treated as destroying the sporting integrity of the game - therefore the team that has erred is kicked out - irrespective of the score. You can win 3-0 and bring on an illegible sub for the last min and you are still kicked out.
So once we accept Soton are rightly punished given the sporting integrity of the results in the playoffs were compromised - Boro can't possibly get a fair result unless they are reinstated.
Or would you also look to ban both teams in the cup scenario described?
Boro - yep they get lucky for sure, but anything else is to simply ignore the wrong done to them, which can only be put right by them going to the final.
His argument entirely falls down under any scrutiny. Saying the punishment was too severe and then simply responding with "I don't know" when asked what a suitable punishment would be was enlightening.
Ultimately, if you attempt to mug someone, but they don't have anything to steal, it is still a crime.
If you do 100 MPH on the motorway, but subsequently get caught in traffic, it is still a crime.
If you attempt armed robbery, but fail to steal any money, it is still a crime.
In any of those scenarios, the perpetrator would not benefit.
Whether you benefit or not is not a marker of what the punishment should be. The marker is whether you sought to benefit, which Soton did.
I think both Jordan and Mills were well off the wider opinion on this. It's a rare thing to say, but all credit to the EFL on this one. They have set a precedent. If you seek to gain advantage by cheating you will be severely punished.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:24 - May 21 by bluelagos
Jordan's argument seems to revolve around the fact that Boro battered Soton in the first leg (which they did) and therefore Soton got no advantage from their cheating (which he accepts)
He lays the failure of Boro to beat Soton at the feet of Boro and therefore they do not deserve to benefit from Soton cheating.
But - and it is a huge but - we can never know what would have happened without the cheating. For example did Soton defend any set pieces based on any info gathered and therefore limit Boro's scoring opportunities from those?
Of course we can never know - but what we do know is that it is fairly standard to kick out a side from a cup game if they play an illegible player. A small infringement is treated as destroying the sporting integrity of the game - therefore the team that has erred is kicked out - irrespective of the score. You can win 3-0 and bring on an illegible sub for the last min and you are still kicked out.
So once we accept Soton are rightly punished given the sporting integrity of the results in the playoffs were compromised - Boro can't possibly get a fair result unless they are reinstated.
Or would you also look to ban both teams in the cup scenario described?
Boro - yep they get lucky for sure, but anything else is to simply ignore the wrong done to them, which can only be put right by them going to the final.
I haven't had time to listen, but is the argument essentially that cheating is only worth punishing if an advantage is clearly gained?
Seems pretty ridiculous to me
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Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:47 - May 21 with 627 views
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:40 - May 21 by TheMoralMajority
His argument entirely falls down under any scrutiny. Saying the punishment was too severe and then simply responding with "I don't know" when asked what a suitable punishment would be was enlightening.
Ultimately, if you attempt to mug someone, but they don't have anything to steal, it is still a crime.
If you do 100 MPH on the motorway, but subsequently get caught in traffic, it is still a crime.
If you attempt armed robbery, but fail to steal any money, it is still a crime.
In any of those scenarios, the perpetrator would not benefit.
Whether you benefit or not is not a marker of what the punishment should be. The marker is whether you sought to benefit, which Soton did.
I think both Jordan and Mills were well off the wider opinion on this. It's a rare thing to say, but all credit to the EFL on this one. They have set a precedent. If you seek to gain advantage by cheating you will be severely punished.
The minority voices are shouting loudest on this. Seems to be broad support from some polls for the EFL taking the action they've taken but lots of shouty folk, some of whom are professional contrarians, are banging the drum that it's a massive injustice. It really isn't. They cheated multiple times and got caught red-handed. They deserve everything they got.
What fascinates me is how quite a few of us got so passionately involved in a furore that we weren't directly affected by in terms of outcome, that we (I include myself) became quite obsessive over it.
I've never been so glued to my phone as I was over this - it felt like an addiction!
A desire for justice and moral compass in football?
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 09:05 - May 21 by Ryorry
What fascinates me is how quite a few of us got so passionately involved in a furore that we weren't directly affected by in terms of outcome, that we (I include myself) became quite obsessive over it.
I've never been so glued to my phone as I was over this - it felt like an addiction!
A desire for justice and moral compass in football?
Largely kept out of it on here - but was defo checking for updates!
Sporting integrity matters - can you imagine if Soton had just been fined a few quid? Would be an open door to others to do the same knowing the prize (promotion) was worth so much more than a fine...
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:47 - May 21 by Herbivore
The minority voices are shouting loudest on this. Seems to be broad support from some polls for the EFL taking the action they've taken but lots of shouty folk, some of whom are professional contrarians, are banging the drum that it's a massive injustice. It really isn't. They cheated multiple times and got caught red-handed. They deserve everything they got.
This!
They got caught red-handed in the Boro situation. They then admitted two more offences which, I think, were the only games they didn’t win in their ridiculous run. Does anyone really think they didn’t cheat on their way up the table?
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Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 09:19 - May 21 with 415 views
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:29 - May 21 by Lion
He could say; because Hull didn't lose? Joey Joe sure is passionately anti 'Boro getting there though, I would agree! But you are very Pro as well, aren't you?! And there is nothing wrong with either of your views, really, 'cos we are all Towan fans Up the Farkin Towan
I'm not pro Boro at all. I said, "no-one thinks Boro deserve to be in the final in terms of performance" and "A Hull v Boro final is the better of two evils."
Everyone knows the rules of the playoffs before the season begins - third to sixth play semi finals, then a final. Only the winner of that final gets to play in the Prem and the £200m windfall attached. If he can explain why Hull deserve to go to the prem without having to play a play-off final then I'd agree there's nothing wrong with his view.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:24 - May 21 by bluelagos
Jordan's argument seems to revolve around the fact that Boro battered Soton in the first leg (which they did) and therefore Soton got no advantage from their cheating (which he accepts)
He lays the failure of Boro to beat Soton at the feet of Boro and therefore they do not deserve to benefit from Soton cheating.
But - and it is a huge but - we can never know what would have happened without the cheating. For example did Soton defend any set pieces based on any info gathered and therefore limit Boro's scoring opportunities from those?
Of course we can never know - but what we do know is that it is fairly standard to kick out a side from a cup game if they play an illegible player. A small infringement is treated as destroying the sporting integrity of the game - therefore the team that has erred is kicked out - irrespective of the score. You can win 3-0 and bring on an illegible sub for the last min and you are still kicked out.
So once we accept Soton are rightly punished given the sporting integrity of the results in the playoffs were compromised - Boro can't possibly get a fair result unless they are reinstated.
Or would you also look to ban both teams in the cup scenario described?
Boro - yep they get lucky for sure, but anything else is to simply ignore the wrong done to them, which can only be put right by them going to the final.
Yes, you will never be able to quantify the extent of the advantage Southampton got. You can extrapolate that over the course of the second half of the season too assuming (as seems likely) they were routinely spying on their opponents. Football is largely a game of seriously fine margins with huge financial rewards riding on it. So, even if they gained a 1% advantage that could be important. To be honest they have completely stuck two fingers up to the integrity of the league and deserved the book to be thrown at them.
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