| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums 21:29 - Jun 20 with 8717 views | jasondozzell |
Did a Harry from Bath and had a look to see what they're saying on Bournemouth and Wolves forums. Interesting mixture of comments. Clearly not a lot of love for him at Wolves because of the state when he left but recurring theme amongst both forums is that he did a fair job in keeping them up in the first season. He clearly has something about him. It's also promising that in both situations it's acknowledged that he got more out of a relatively weak squad than was expected.
Bournemouth
GON was the difference maker that year, he inherited a side with little attacking quality and a weak defence on paper and somehow managed to develop a way of playing that allowed us to eek out enough wins to survive. He did a brilliant job despite the fact it wasn’t easy on the eye at times.
Got to feel sorry for them.. ..nobody deserves to watch that.....still at least it isn't us so couldn't really care less.
Gary worked hard to keep us up, the football wasn't vintage, but I bet if you asked West Ham fans if they would have suffered bland football for their PL status it would be a no brainer. I hope that he gets a decent job somewhere and stays in the game at PL level. Its easy to criticise managers too often and forget the tasks that they have to ensure that their clubs survive in this League?
I'm just saying it's not a given that Gon would get a job as a PE teacher.
Truth is likely somewhere in the middle. He did his job, kept us up. Not a terrible manager and not a miracle worker. No need to demonise him.
Even if that were true then so what? I would have been wrong, it happens. He’s clearly good enough to manage at this level.
He was sacked from Wolves for not being able to do it and had one mini purple patch with us in a dreadful years football in a team that was more than capable of staying up.
He kept us up against the odds, you can dress it up however you want but at the end of the day that is the reality. Next to no one outside of the AFCB fan base gave us a chance that year, and he kept us up with games to spare. Whatever was said about him at the time, he got a job done that many wouldn’t have. The football wasn’t the prettiest but who gives a flying fanny, survival is everything in that first year.
Wolves
Nuno to Lage level of drop off. I know he gives a good PowerPoint, but why?
The man kept 2 teams in the Premier League...give him some respect (whilst ignoring the total collapse of control he had on a team and essentially managed with zero authority for 3 months)
I’ve liked Ipswich since I was a kid when they had some great players, played good football and punched well above their weight but if they appoint GO I’ll be hoping they go down They’ll probably do ok for a few games but by October it will unravel and if he’s still there at Christmas the list of who’s to blame will be pages long and one name will be conspicuous by it’s absence.
Until he gets hired again in England and gets brutally exposed as being out of his depth the myth of Gary O'Neil being a good manager will continue. I'm eager to see him find a new job; was hoping it would be West Ham but any role will do.
It would be very wolvesy for gon to do well
Its one of those tricks of memory things.
We had that decent run over Christmas and the Chelsea win and we were in the discussion for Europe. Bit like how Fulham are most seasons, get within striking distance and fall back.
Yes he had a injury crisis with regards to the front line and we failed him by not signing a forward to replace Sasa/Fabio (not that GON was a fan of Sasa, despite a couple of vital goals) but we were dreadful in that final part of the season.
GON also had the same problem Rob had - he wanted to be pals with the players and gave the likes of Cunha & Lemina way to much power. As the results got worse, they took control, he threw them under a bus and discipline went out of the window and he had zero control over it.
Felt he did an ok job overall. Lost his way towards the end of course but saying he came in the way he did after Lopetegui's walking off it was a pity the way it finished [Post edited 20 Jun 21:43]
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:44 - Jun 21 with 977 views | Pinewoodblue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:30 - Jun 21 by Radlett_blue |
Indeed, it was a much lower bar for McKenna to work his magic on the best & most expensive squad in League One. I guess Ashton & the money-men have agreed that a pragmatist who might keep us us is the rational choice right now. |
I feel that Ashton is considering taking a gamble, his reputation is at stake., he has to get this right as the buck stops with him.
A one season contract with a substantial bonus if he keeps us up.
Cannot envisage this being a long term. Appointment |  |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:45 - Jun 21 with 976 views | Ace_High1 |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:38 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
You are shocked that a manager who has in the past 4 seasons twice kept teams up, one of which was newly promoted, with small budgets having to go in at a really awkward time both times, is seen as a target for a job where he has to go in at an awkward time to try and keep a team up in season one? |
Have to admit I am amazed we have gone with O’Neil. When he was linked as a favourite early on o laughed as I thought we would be much more creative with who we ended up with. I am not going to start making silly comments and will back him when he joins but if you had said a month ago we go into the season with him I would think you were mad!
Just on the pragmatic aspect of we are really just doing that then surely Dyche is your man? Feels like a bit of a half way house to me. |  | | |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:45 - Jun 21 with 975 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:38 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
You are shocked that a manager who has in the past 4 seasons twice kept teams up, one of which was newly promoted, with small budgets having to go in at a really awkward time both times, is seen as a target for a job where he has to go in at an awkward time to try and keep a team up in season one? |
I am shocked that a manager who was sacked because they knew he wouldnt survive relegation the 2nd season with the terrible stats he had achieved
He also did not build the team at bournemouth. That was in place before he took over he had also coached there 18 months prior. He knew what be was taken on and if it werent for an incredible spring spell hed have beem relegated with ease.
Hes never built a side from scratch
HE who took an established prem club. Lost the dressing room and got sacked after losing and being behind a town side that were having their worst ever prem campagin. Loss players from behind the scenes but didnt get those under him. Those performances were there to be brought out as shown he got sacked.
So nothing to get me excited about.
But we will see. As i say when he starts ill get behind him. But for now yeah sure ill question it [Post edited 21 Jun 14:50]
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:46 - Jun 21 with 966 views | Nutkins_Return |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 10:19 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
I dont see how you can get these apparent hundreds of applications. Look at all markets. Different countries etc etc
And then you sit down and go. Thats the guy |
Because with respect you weren't involved in the process.
There would have only been 20-30 serious considerations for a start max.
Even looking worldwide I imagine we only spoke to half that seriously as the most credible ones. If from that we weren't convinced by anyone then we would go again.
But the reality is if you went through that process and he had done all the research, took you through his plans, strategies and tactics and was the stand out candidate then you would be stupid to go with someone else to be popular with the fans. If anything he is not the easy pic. |  |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:46 - Jun 21 with 966 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:45 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
I am shocked that a manager who was sacked because they knew he wouldnt survive relegation the 2nd season with the terrible stats he had achieved
He also did not build the team at bournemouth. That was in place before he took over he had also coached there 18 months prior. He knew what be was taken on and if it werent for an incredible spring spell hed have beem relegated with ease.
Hes never built a side from scratch
HE who took an established prem club. Lost the dressing room and got sacked after losing and being behind a town side that were having their worst ever prem campagin. Loss players from behind the scenes but didnt get those under him. Those performances were there to be brought out as shown he got sacked.
So nothing to get me excited about.
But we will see. As i say when he starts ill get behind him. But for now yeah sure ill question it [Post edited 21 Jun 14:50]
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So basically anything that went well for him is not to his credit and down to others, but anything that went badly was 100% his fault? |  |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:51 - Jun 21 with 942 views | Ace_High1 |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:44 - Jun 21 by Pinewoodblue |
I feel that Ashton is considering taking a gamble, his reputation is at stake., he has to get this right as the buck stops with him.
A one season contract with a substantial bonus if he keeps us up.
Cannot envisage this being a long term. Appointment |
No way it’s a one year as that just sends a message to everyone this is short term, even if it really is.
It will be a three year deal I expect but may have break clauses that we won’t know about. | | | |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:54 - Jun 21 with 931 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:46 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
So basically anything that went well for him is not to his credit and down to others, but anything that went badly was 100% his fault? |
Funny how youre seeing that.
What did he do well?
He made wolves worse and relegation fodder.
He inherited the bournemouth team and performed incredibly sht but somehow stayed up against all odds. | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:57 - Jun 21 with 931 views | Guthrum |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:31 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
Its not about the pragmatism. Thats to be expected.
But i dont feelt that is oneil anyway personally. I just genuinly dont see how he became the target.
If hed kept 3/4 teams up. 2 or 3 of them were promoted sides id have a different view but he hasnt. Hes ease of throwing players etc.
And yeah ive thrown out names. But ive not made the claim of looking around the world. Ive not spent any time looking at different leagues. Thats not my job
When his announvement is confirmed ill support him. But at the moment im still shocked. |
But who has got such a record, in England, in the Prem, but who is available and would come to Ipswich*?
If it's in a foreign league, then we're simply gambling that standards are similar, that the candidate's skills and knowlege are transferrable. A risk easier to take when you're already well established, like Brighton.
O'Neil is at least young and developing his career, so likely to be adaptable and learning from previous errors.
* Back to Sam Allardyce  |  |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:01 - Jun 21 with 918 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:57 - Jun 21 by Guthrum |
But who has got such a record, in England, in the Prem, but who is available and would come to Ipswich*?
If it's in a foreign league, then we're simply gambling that standards are similar, that the candidate's skills and knowlege are transferrable. A risk easier to take when you're already well established, like Brighton.
O'Neil is at least young and developing his career, so likely to be adaptable and learning from previous errors.
* Back to Sam Allardyce |
Im not saying they had to have that record. But the way people go on about oneil and his suitability because of 1 spell at bournemouth i just find odd. | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:03 - Jun 21 with 912 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:54 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
Funny how youre seeing that.
What did he do well?
He made wolves worse and relegation fodder.
He inherited the bournemouth team and performed incredibly sht but somehow stayed up against all odds. |
“He inherited the bournemouth team and performed incredibly sht but somehow stayed up against all odds.”
And you wonder why I made that last post?! | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:09 - Jun 21 with 893 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:03 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
“He inherited the bournemouth team and performed incredibly sht but somehow stayed up against all odds.”
And you wonder why I made that last post?! |
He lierally inherited it after being there 18 months.
They performed as a bottom 3 side all season. Thats factual
Applauds for the finishing position. They survived against all odds. That cant be disputed. That is the only reason be got sacked. Those figures the following year werent gonna keep them up again.
Im suprised you of all people tbh are falling lnto the trip of oh he did well at bournemouth. | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:10 - Jun 21 with 891 views | Guthrum |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:01 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
Im not saying they had to have that record. But the way people go on about oneil and his suitability because of 1 spell at bournemouth i just find odd. |
However, at least he has that - plus his first season at Wolves - which is more relevant (and recent) experience than most in the field of available candidates. | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:25 - Jun 21 with 862 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:09 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
He lierally inherited it after being there 18 months.
They performed as a bottom 3 side all season. Thats factual
Applauds for the finishing position. They survived against all odds. That cant be disputed. That is the only reason be got sacked. Those figures the following year werent gonna keep them up again.
Im suprised you of all people tbh are falling lnto the trip of oh he did well at bournemouth. |
Well if it’s any consolation I can’t say I’m surprised that you of all people are acting like this | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 15:27 - Jun 21 with 857 views | hoppy |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:31 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
Its not about the pragmatism. Thats to be expected.
But i dont feelt that is oneil anyway personally. I just genuinly dont see how he became the target.
If hed kept 3/4 teams up. 2 or 3 of them were promoted sides id have a different view but he hasnt. Hes ease of throwing players etc.
And yeah ive thrown out names. But ive not made the claim of looking around the world. Ive not spent any time looking at different leagues. Thats not my job
When his announvement is confirmed ill support him. But at the moment im still shocked. |
He’s kept 2 x teams up… potential to keep another up with us, and is still only about 4 years into his managerial career. He wouldn’t have necessarily been who I would’ve gone for, but if he is, then he has a platform to make an impression by coming in at the beginning of preseason and working on getting a squad together, with more backing than he had in his 2 previous Premier League clubs. |  |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:04 - Jun 21 with 716 views | itfc_statman |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 14:38 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
You are shocked that a manager who has in the past 4 seasons twice kept teams up, one of which was newly promoted, with small budgets having to go in at a really awkward time both times, is seen as a target for a job where he has to go in at an awkward time to try and keep a team up in season one? |
It's very rare for a manager or team to out-perform the underlying stats consistently. It's exactly why Championship clubs chasing promotion turned him down.
I think we can all get behind him but be honest and admit he's generally not seen a manager even in the same universe as McKenna. | | | |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:18 - Jun 21 with 674 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:04 - Jun 21 by itfc_statman |
It's very rare for a manager or team to out-perform the underlying stats consistently. It's exactly why Championship clubs chasing promotion turned him down.
I think we can all get behind him but be honest and admit he's generally not seen a manager even in the same universe as McKenna. |
But you talk about outperforming stats as though it was to a ludicrous level - their xG was there or thereabouts where it needed to be and they got over the line.
Their xGD for the season as a newly promoted club was -26.3 as a newly promoted club, and it actually ended up a fair bit worse at -34. Ours was -39.6 and ended up -46. It’s not far off 0.33 worse per game! In 24/25 as a newly promoted team our xGD was 25 worse than his Wolves side
He made Bournemouth competitive and got them over the line comfortably, something McKenna sadly didn’t get close to doing | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:24 - Jun 21 with 654 views | tractorboy1978 |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:04 - Jun 21 by itfc_statman |
It's very rare for a manager or team to out-perform the underlying stats consistently. It's exactly why Championship clubs chasing promotion turned him down.
I think we can all get behind him but be honest and admit he's generally not seen a manager even in the same universe as McKenna. |
The same McKenna that had a 10.5% win rate in the PL? Not meant as a criticism but just the reality. The bar is pretty low for O’Neil if that’s the benchmark. | | | |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:32 - Jun 21 with 623 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:18 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
But you talk about outperforming stats as though it was to a ludicrous level - their xG was there or thereabouts where it needed to be and they got over the line.
Their xGD for the season as a newly promoted club was -26.3 as a newly promoted club, and it actually ended up a fair bit worse at -34. Ours was -39.6 and ended up -46. It’s not far off 0.33 worse per game! In 24/25 as a newly promoted team our xGD was 25 worse than his Wolves side
He made Bournemouth competitive and got them over the line comfortably, something McKenna sadly didn’t get close to doing |
I just dont see how you can say competitive when they were bottom 3 for the vast majority of every metric going. You then say comfortably when it was one run in spring that saved the season. When he was given the job fulltime he lost the next 7 to 8 games straight.
The keeper made over 100 saves that seasom and solanke and others scored many goals that were extremely low chance created opportunities. Its ok to say he got lucky. It doesnt belittle the fact that he finished 15th.
Anyway shall we leave it now. Hes announced tomorrow so lets get excited and see who comes in player wise. | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:44 - Jun 21 with 599 views | jayessess |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:32 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
I just dont see how you can say competitive when they were bottom 3 for the vast majority of every metric going. You then say comfortably when it was one run in spring that saved the season. When he was given the job fulltime he lost the next 7 to 8 games straight.
The keeper made over 100 saves that seasom and solanke and others scored many goals that were extremely low chance created opportunities. Its ok to say he got lucky. It doesnt belittle the fact that he finished 15th.
Anyway shall we leave it now. Hes announced tomorrow so lets get excited and see who comes in player wise. |
I mean, if you achieve something and I attribute that achievement to luck rather than merit, that's extremely belittling of your achievement, isn't it? |  |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:44 - Jun 21 with 599 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:32 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
I just dont see how you can say competitive when they were bottom 3 for the vast majority of every metric going. You then say comfortably when it was one run in spring that saved the season. When he was given the job fulltime he lost the next 7 to 8 games straight.
The keeper made over 100 saves that seasom and solanke and others scored many goals that were extremely low chance created opportunities. Its ok to say he got lucky. It doesnt belittle the fact that he finished 15th.
Anyway shall we leave it now. Hes announced tomorrow so lets get excited and see who comes in player wise. |
Because ‘bottom 3’ doesn’t mean a lot re being competitive
As an example at Bounrmouth, they were ‘bottom 3’ for xG with 39.6, the team 2 ahead of them in a table were 0.4 goals ahead of them…..so basically one good chance different over the course of a season
Defensively they were ‘bottom 3’ with 65.9 xGA, the team 3 places above them in this table were 0.7 goals ahead of them.
Basically if they were awarded one more penalty, and conceded one fewer penalty they’d have been 14th in the league defensively and 15th in an attacking sense. That’s called being competitive.
In our PL season we were ‘bottom 3’ in an attacking metric - the next worst team were 8 goals better than us.
Defensively we were ‘bottom 3’, the next worst team were 10 goals better than us, the one after that were 14 goals ahead.
A penalty either way moves them from 18th to 15th on the metrics, for us to move to 15th on the metrics we’d have needed to get an extra 16 penalties, and conceded the equivalent of 20 less penalties.
So that is why they were competitive, that they stayed up was a 50/50 chance looking purely ag underlying numbers and ignoring game, season stage….our numbers would have required an absolute miracle | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:54 - Jun 21 with 576 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:44 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
Because ‘bottom 3’ doesn’t mean a lot re being competitive
As an example at Bounrmouth, they were ‘bottom 3’ for xG with 39.6, the team 2 ahead of them in a table were 0.4 goals ahead of them…..so basically one good chance different over the course of a season
Defensively they were ‘bottom 3’ with 65.9 xGA, the team 3 places above them in this table were 0.7 goals ahead of them.
Basically if they were awarded one more penalty, and conceded one fewer penalty they’d have been 14th in the league defensively and 15th in an attacking sense. That’s called being competitive.
In our PL season we were ‘bottom 3’ in an attacking metric - the next worst team were 8 goals better than us.
Defensively we were ‘bottom 3’, the next worst team were 10 goals better than us, the one after that were 14 goals ahead.
A penalty either way moves them from 18th to 15th on the metrics, for us to move to 15th on the metrics we’d have needed to get an extra 16 penalties, and conceded the equivalent of 20 less penalties.
So that is why they were competitive, that they stayed up was a 50/50 chance looking purely ag underlying numbers and ignoring game, season stage….our numbers would have required an absolute miracle |
But they didnt so they werent. If two of the sides finised where their stats showed they should have its a different discussion then and bournemouth finish exactly where their stats showed they should have done
If their stats etc were better and oneil was seen as better he wouldnt have been sacked | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 22:03 - Jun 21 with 554 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 21:54 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
But they didnt so they werent. If two of the sides finised where their stats showed they should have its a different discussion then and bournemouth finish exactly where their stats showed they should have done
If their stats etc were better and oneil was seen as better he wouldnt have been sacked |
Do you not understand what competitive means? I don’t know why I wasted my time actually giving an explanation - in that season 3 out of 20 teams finished exactly where their xG suggested. It’s not and never has been an exact science, it’s just a metric.
They changed owners in January and the new owner brought in his own man and achieved great success - O’Neil’s contribution to that journey was a big part of it. | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 22:13 - Jun 21 with 530 views | FrimleyBlue |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 22:03 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
Do you not understand what competitive means? I don’t know why I wasted my time actually giving an explanation - in that season 3 out of 20 teams finished exactly where their xG suggested. It’s not and never has been an exact science, it’s just a metric.
They changed owners in January and the new owner brought in his own man and achieved great success - O’Neil’s contribution to that journey was a big part of it. |
Leeds United (19th): Advanced models, such as expected points (xPts) and expected goals (xG) generally pegged Leeds to finish closer to 14th or 15th
They ultimately underachieved due to severe defensive frailties.Leicester City (18th): Similar xG and xPts metrics from that season heavily favored Leicester to finish comfortably mid-table, closer to 12th or 13th. Their actual results vastly undershot these performance indicators.
I can only go by data and explanations like the above that i read online when looking into oneil when he was linked. With everton expecred that season to be 14th based on the data but finished 17th | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 22:17 - Jun 21 with 517 views | itfcjoe |
| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 22:13 - Jun 21 by FrimleyBlue |
Leeds United (19th): Advanced models, such as expected points (xPts) and expected goals (xG) generally pegged Leeds to finish closer to 14th or 15th
They ultimately underachieved due to severe defensive frailties.Leicester City (18th): Similar xG and xPts metrics from that season heavily favored Leicester to finish comfortably mid-table, closer to 12th or 13th. Their actual results vastly undershot these performance indicators.
I can only go by data and explanations like the above that i read online when looking into oneil when he was linked. With everton expecred that season to be 14th based on the data but finished 17th |
So, the answer was ‘no’ then | |
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| View from Bournemouth and Wolves forums on 22:49 - Jun 21 with 486 views | armchaircritic59 |
Maybe the Bournemouth forum members should take a look at what Antoine Semenyo had to say about him. I know who's opinion I'd prefer to take. |  | | |
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