| English youth development needs an overhaul 12:22 - Jul 16 with 2299 views | IP1Blue |
Was interested to see how much English clubs spend on youth development compared to nations across Europe and a report by UEFA in 2020 shows we’re way above most nations - https://www.uefa.com/news-medi
As someone who has been going to academy games a lot in the last 15/20 years for various reasons such as family members being part academies from u9 - u16 levels this obsession of athleticism is what is killing us. Ipswich for example came out with a new tiered pillar system in what they’re looking for which placed athleticism and physicality at the top with technical ability only coming in at 3rd. You play teams in London who are 13/14 years old who are bigger and stronger than everyone at there age so it looks like they’re really good but by the time they’re 18/19 people have caught them up and get found out.
This was accelerated after France winning the World Cup in 2018 and we’ve almost gone backwards in producing footballers. Spain and Argentina produce top quality footballers whilst most of ours are very good physically but are average footballers which get found out at the top level. Unless we change our approach in English football and this obsession with physicality and don’t move to a more technical approach which gives players a chance to grow rather than kicked out for academies for being too small which happens a lot and more than people would think, I think we struggle.
We’re world class at producing non league players and amateur in producing world class players for the money that we spend on youth development. Obviously there’s a few exceptions e.g. Bellingham but overall, it’s all quite average - we’ve been very lucky the last four tournaments with our routes to semi finals / finals and unfortunately we’ve not taken this golden opportunity that we’ve had in the last 8 years. |  | | |  |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:25 - Jul 16 with 1812 views | hype313 |
Where's the next Harry Kane, or Rooney, from what I can gather, bar Max Dowman, we don't have any special, world class talent coming through. |  |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:40 - Jul 16 with 1734 views | Nutkins_Return |
We're hitting semi finals and finals on a regular basis and essentially overachieving in a lot of senses for our size.
Annoyed we went out it I don't by the rhetoric we need to rip things up. | |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:47 - Jul 16 with 1705 views | BseaBlue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:25 - Jul 16 by hype313 |
Where's the next Harry Kane, or Rooney, from what I can gather, bar Max Dowman, we don't have any special, world class talent coming through. |
The only thing is, a lot of the current squad will still be around for the next world cup. Out of the current squad, I'd imagine the following will be in with a chance of being there:
- James
- Guehi
- Konsa
- O'Reilly
- Spence
- Anderson
- Rice
- Gordon
- Saka
- Bellingham
- Mainoo
- Quansah
- Madueke
- Rogers
- Eze
Add in that Foden will be 30 and Palmer 28 and that is two other good options to have.
Losing Kane will be the biggest blow but I still see Bellingham as our long term 9. Strikers do seem to be an issue though and is concerning considering we have had a luxury of options there for a number of years. |  | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:51 - Jul 16 with 1669 views | Jon_456 |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:40 - Jul 16 by Nutkins_Return |
We're hitting semi finals and finals on a regular basis and essentially overachieving in a lot of senses for our size.
Annoyed we went out it I don't by the rhetoric we need to rip things up. |
So entirely predictable though.
People going on about how wonderful this group are and the minute we get knocked out it’s back to the usual, they’re useless, need to change things etc.
We’ve had 2 semi finals in the last 3 WCs and 2 finals out of 2 at the Euros which actually suggests we’re doing something right.
When it comes down to Semi finals / finals, games tend to turn into a bit of a lottery. I didn’t think we were outplayed last night until we scored and then for some reason decided to stop playing football for the last 30 mins. Thought Tuchel could have been braver in bringing on the likes of Rashford and Watkins so we at least had a counter threat.
Onto the Euros it is. Maybe third time lucky. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:54 - Jul 16 with 1658 views | NedPlimpton |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:40 - Jul 16 by Nutkins_Return |
We're hitting semi finals and finals on a regular basis and essentially overachieving in a lot of senses for our size.
Annoyed we went out it I don't by the rhetoric we need to rip things up. |
I think we had the 14th youngest squad out of the 48. And that's before you take into account we took Henderson along as a passenger. An overhaul is definitely not needed |  | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:56 - Jul 16 with 1648 views | IP1Blue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:40 - Jul 16 by Nutkins_Return |
We're hitting semi finals and finals on a regular basis and essentially overachieving in a lot of senses for our size.
Annoyed we went out it I don't by the rhetoric we need to rip things up. |
Overreaching! We spend by far and most on youth development across Europe - what about Spain, italy, Argentina who all have lower populations than us who have won top tier tournaments in last 10 years. France only have 10m more people than us as well!
Every team we should beat, we beat and every 50/50 game we have lost in the last 10 years - we couldn’t of asked for better games and we have thrown them away in key moment or by better footballing terms!
Declan rice and Anderson are good players but neither would get into Argentinas or Spains midfield - I would argue very overrated by the way media speak about him. I think it was Michael Owen who said you can make a good career now in the premier league by running a bit further than anyone else and passing the ball from A to B and he’s right | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:12 - Jul 16 with 1534 views | NedPlimpton |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:56 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
Overreaching! We spend by far and most on youth development across Europe - what about Spain, italy, Argentina who all have lower populations than us who have won top tier tournaments in last 10 years. France only have 10m more people than us as well!
Every team we should beat, we beat and every 50/50 game we have lost in the last 10 years - we couldn’t of asked for better games and we have thrown them away in key moment or by better footballing terms!
Declan rice and Anderson are good players but neither would get into Argentinas or Spains midfield - I would argue very overrated by the way media speak about him. I think it was Michael Owen who said you can make a good career now in the premier league by running a bit further than anyone else and passing the ball from A to B and he’s right |
Italy has a larger population than England
Declan Rice would definitely get into the Argentina starting 11 over Parades. Anderson has just joined Man City for over £100m! Not sure why you're keen to put these players down.
I'd agree that there is a psychological issue with England, be that the players or the manager, but i don't think there's a problem with how we develop youth.
Also, noot sure what you mean by every 50/50 game we've lost. Argentina are second in the world for a reason. Mexico are 9th and we were playing them at their place, yet won. Does that count as a 50/50? | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:16 - Jul 16 with 1517 views | DanTheMan |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:56 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
Overreaching! We spend by far and most on youth development across Europe - what about Spain, italy, Argentina who all have lower populations than us who have won top tier tournaments in last 10 years. France only have 10m more people than us as well!
Every team we should beat, we beat and every 50/50 game we have lost in the last 10 years - we couldn’t of asked for better games and we have thrown them away in key moment or by better footballing terms!
Declan rice and Anderson are good players but neither would get into Argentinas or Spains midfield - I would argue very overrated by the way media speak about him. I think it was Michael Owen who said you can make a good career now in the premier league by running a bit further than anyone else and passing the ball from A to B and he’s right |
I'm not sure Italy is a good benchmark... yes, they won a Euros but they've not even qualified for a World Cup since 2014 and the last time they made it out of a group stage was when they won it in 2006.
Obviously most of us would absolutely take winning a major tournament but their team is a shadow of what it was. |  |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:19 - Jul 16 with 1505 views | Bent_double |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:51 - Jul 16 by Jon_456 |
So entirely predictable though.
People going on about how wonderful this group are and the minute we get knocked out it’s back to the usual, they’re useless, need to change things etc.
We’ve had 2 semi finals in the last 3 WCs and 2 finals out of 2 at the Euros which actually suggests we’re doing something right.
When it comes down to Semi finals / finals, games tend to turn into a bit of a lottery. I didn’t think we were outplayed last night until we scored and then for some reason decided to stop playing football for the last 30 mins. Thought Tuchel could have been braver in bringing on the likes of Rashford and Watkins so we at least had a counter threat.
Onto the Euros it is. Maybe third time lucky. |
With a bit of luck, I can see England winning the Euros in the near future, but not a World Cup.
What were Antony Barry's words at HT last night, something like, "with the power and pace of our Premier League players we should be able to win this."
Well, the only power and pace came from the Argies, along with a hell of a lot more determination to win. How many of their team are 6 foot +? That seems to be the main prerequisite for an England player atm, whereas theirs is more natural skill and technical ability.
No disgrace losing in the semis, especially to a very talented Argentinian side, but fingers crossed Spain will do them 4 nil in the final. |  |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:20 - Jul 16 with 1508 views | BloomBlue |
I don't think we're too far off, but as a country we do need to encourage all types of players, not just big physical and quick players.
I thought it was telling when you look at Messi, even when he was a kid he didn't run much during games. Same when he moved into professional football, just no way a Messi would make it into professional football in the UK now. He would be kicked out because he doesn't run enough, doesn't track back, etc. We've become too over reliant on producing big physical mobile players. Hopefully we'll move more towards a more diverse approach. |  | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:21 - Jul 16 with 1506 views | mellowblue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:47 - Jul 16 by BseaBlue |
The only thing is, a lot of the current squad will still be around for the next world cup. Out of the current squad, I'd imagine the following will be in with a chance of being there:
- James
- Guehi
- Konsa
- O'Reilly
- Spence
- Anderson
- Rice
- Gordon
- Saka
- Bellingham
- Mainoo
- Quansah
- Madueke
- Rogers
- Eze
Add in that Foden will be 30 and Palmer 28 and that is two other good options to have.
Losing Kane will be the biggest blow but I still see Bellingham as our long term 9. Strikers do seem to be an issue though and is concerning considering we have had a luxury of options there for a number of years. |
The Bellingham one is interesting and I am sure he would make a good 9. But while he is a Madrid, bar any injury crisis, it won't happen as they would never see him as a 9. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:23 - Jul 16 with 1495 views | IP1Blue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:12 - Jul 16 by NedPlimpton |
Italy has a larger population than England
Declan Rice would definitely get into the Argentina starting 11 over Parades. Anderson has just joined Man City for over £100m! Not sure why you're keen to put these players down.
I'd agree that there is a psychological issue with England, be that the players or the manager, but i don't think there's a problem with how we develop youth.
Also, noot sure what you mean by every 50/50 game we've lost. Argentina are second in the world for a reason. Mexico are 9th and we were playing them at their place, yet won. Does that count as a 50/50? |
Very marginally having looked again.
I’m not putting them down, I’m pointing out the fact we produce fairly average footballers for the amount we spend in youth development in England - if we compared Argentina’s youth development programmes and the cost of them compared to English clubs - it’s probably minuscule.
One of Mexico's best players is a 35 year old championship striker, of course we should beat them!! | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:46 - Jul 16 with 1414 views | Illinoisblue |
It’s an interesting debate. The question is, would youth coaches who focus on technical skills survive for long in their jobs if they lost almost every game to more physical/athletic sides? Are clubs brave enough to not worry about youth results? |  |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:04 - Jul 16 with 1350 views | 66notout |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:47 - Jul 16 by BseaBlue |
The only thing is, a lot of the current squad will still be around for the next world cup. Out of the current squad, I'd imagine the following will be in with a chance of being there:
- James
- Guehi
- Konsa
- O'Reilly
- Spence
- Anderson
- Rice
- Gordon
- Saka
- Bellingham
- Mainoo
- Quansah
- Madueke
- Rogers
- Eze
Add in that Foden will be 30 and Palmer 28 and that is two other good options to have.
Losing Kane will be the biggest blow but I still see Bellingham as our long term 9. Strikers do seem to be an issue though and is concerning considering we have had a luxury of options there for a number of years. |
So this year’s losers will still be there in 2030? How heartening… | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:15 - Jul 16 with 1318 views | BseaBlue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:04 - Jul 16 by 66notout |
So this year’s losers will still be there in 2030? How heartening… |
Oh yeah that's right. Let's just bin the lot of them because we didn't win the world cup. Great thinking. On that basis, I would imagine every Premier League team other than Arsenal will be getting rid of all their loser players. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:22 - Jul 16 with 1310 views | IP1Blue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:46 - Jul 16 by Illinoisblue |
It’s an interesting debate. The question is, would youth coaches who focus on technical skills survive for long in their jobs if they lost almost every game to more physical/athletic sides? Are clubs brave enough to not worry about youth results? |
The Spanish are world class at it and have half the budget. Our talent ID compared to theirs is night/day - the way they just passed it round France was a joy to watch, showing athleticism isn’t the only way to win a game of football.
Them coaches will be the winners in the long term, once they’re all 17/18 and all caught up physically to the more physical sides compared to when they were 13/14 - they’d have learnt so much and be better players for it.
I just wonder how a Pedri / Gavi for Spain would of done aged 7/8 in an English academy - my guess is they honestly would of been released at 11/12 for being too small. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:23 - Jul 16 with 1297 views | farkenhell |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:04 - Jul 16 by 66notout |
So this year’s losers will still be there in 2030? How heartening… |
Stupid comment. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:31 - Jul 16 with 1261 views | IP1Blue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:15 - Jul 16 by BseaBlue |
Oh yeah that's right. Let's just bin the lot of them because we didn't win the world cup. Great thinking. On that basis, I would imagine every Premier League team other than Arsenal will be getting rid of all their loser players. |
You say that though, looking at the list, if you take Bellingham out of it, there is lot of decent players there but not a lot of what you would call very good players there - if they played for Germany let’s say, I wouldn’t be overly concerned looking that list of player and be worried about playing them. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:32 - Jul 16 with 1250 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:23 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
Very marginally having looked again.
I’m not putting them down, I’m pointing out the fact we produce fairly average footballers for the amount we spend in youth development in England - if we compared Argentina’s youth development programmes and the cost of them compared to English clubs - it’s probably minuscule.
One of Mexico's best players is a 35 year old championship striker, of course we should beat them!! |
Of course Argentina's success is skewed by the fact they are lucky enough to have had the best player in the world for the past two decades.
The rest of the team is relatively average, except they have a strong mentality and are the best in the world at sh*thousery. |  |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:38 - Jul 16 with 1204 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:22 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
The Spanish are world class at it and have half the budget. Our talent ID compared to theirs is night/day - the way they just passed it round France was a joy to watch, showing athleticism isn’t the only way to win a game of football.
Them coaches will be the winners in the long term, once they’re all 17/18 and all caught up physically to the more physical sides compared to when they were 13/14 - they’d have learnt so much and be better players for it.
I just wonder how a Pedri / Gavi for Spain would of done aged 7/8 in an English academy - my guess is they honestly would of been released at 11/12 for being too small. |
Their way of playing has been ingrained in them for decades.
I went on a schools football trip to Spain c.1998, and it was a shock to see the Spanish teams pass in triangles around us. It was like another game altogether.
Of course we are used to that now, but its difficult to catch up with an entire ethos / culture. | |
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:38 - Jul 16 with 1201 views | IP1Blue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:32 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Of course Argentina's success is skewed by the fact they are lucky enough to have had the best player in the world for the past two decades.
The rest of the team is relatively average, except they have a strong mentality and are the best in the world at sh*thousery. |
But in the end, they didn’t win because of there sh*thousery, the better footballing side won - once they actually locked in and stopped all of that, we couldn’t get near them and there footballing ability in midfield and Messi won them the game.
We couldn’t just rely on Bellingham/Kane to win us the game - the Spain/Argentinians of the world to me seems like they have more strings to there bow than us. I do feel someone like an Adam Wharton would have been perfect last night who can take the ball in midfield and find them cute passes and hold onto it. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:48 - Jul 16 with 1138 views | leitrimblue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:12 - Jul 16 by NedPlimpton |
Italy has a larger population than England
Declan Rice would definitely get into the Argentina starting 11 over Parades. Anderson has just joined Man City for over £100m! Not sure why you're keen to put these players down.
I'd agree that there is a psychological issue with England, be that the players or the manager, but i don't think there's a problem with how we develop youth.
Also, noot sure what you mean by every 50/50 game we've lost. Argentina are second in the world for a reason. Mexico are 9th and we were playing them at their place, yet won. Does that count as a 50/50? |
Yer right that Rice and others may make it into the Argie squad. But not sure any of the England midfield have the technical ability to make it into the Spanish squad.
That extra bit of technical skill, just to keep hold of the ball and take the sting outta the game for a while was really lacking in the last half hour last night.
That and Tommy's crazy move of removing the attacking threat and going 5 at the back |  | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:50 - Jul 16 with 1140 views | IP1Blue |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:38 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Their way of playing has been ingrained in them for decades.
I went on a schools football trip to Spain c.1998, and it was a shock to see the Spanish teams pass in triangles around us. It was like another game altogether.
Of course we are used to that now, but its difficult to catch up with an entire ethos / culture. |
I think that’s my point though - we need an overhaul in how we approach the game and we were sort of trying to switch it and then all of a sudden after 2018 and funnily enough, how other parents in other academies spoke about it, Jude Bellingham changed the game and we were back going down the physical approach again.
If you want to change your culture then that comes from the top at the FA and also the clubs.
There’s a big issue at the moment where players join top clubs for pennies at 15/16 and then by 18/19 the likes of Chelsea and Man City sell them for 8 figures plus and also buy back and sell on clauses otherwise they won’t sell them. That in my opinion needs clamping down on because how can a player who’s been developed from 8-16 at Ipswich (for example) then go to Chelsea for 2 years and then Chelsea get all the benefit in buy back / sell on and big fees - it’s not right and needs changing such as if you develop a player for 6 years and they move on, you are due 50% of the sell on fee as mandatory and that club can’t include certain clauses into future deals. | | | |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:53 - Jul 16 with 1118 views | NedPlimpton |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 13:23 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
Very marginally having looked again.
I’m not putting them down, I’m pointing out the fact we produce fairly average footballers for the amount we spend in youth development in England - if we compared Argentina’s youth development programmes and the cost of them compared to English clubs - it’s probably minuscule.
One of Mexico's best players is a 35 year old championship striker, of course we should beat them!! |
But they're not "fairly average" are they? They're the 4th best side in the world, beat Mexico on their home soil and if it wasn't for some pretty depressing tactics against Argentina would potentially be in a world cup final. And that's without the likes of Palmer, Foden, TAA etc who have been amongst the best players in the best league in the world over the last few seasons
I genuinely get your point, but a complete overhaul of youth football for what has been a pretty successful side over the last few years would be ridiculous. As a country we're producing some of our finest talent in recent years, and are internationally more successful now than we've ever been (barring 66). Winning a Euros or World cup would be the next step and to me it feels more psychological than talent based. [Post edited 16 Jul 14:55]
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| English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:06 - Jul 16 with 1040 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:50 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
I think that’s my point though - we need an overhaul in how we approach the game and we were sort of trying to switch it and then all of a sudden after 2018 and funnily enough, how other parents in other academies spoke about it, Jude Bellingham changed the game and we were back going down the physical approach again.
If you want to change your culture then that comes from the top at the FA and also the clubs.
There’s a big issue at the moment where players join top clubs for pennies at 15/16 and then by 18/19 the likes of Chelsea and Man City sell them for 8 figures plus and also buy back and sell on clauses otherwise they won’t sell them. That in my opinion needs clamping down on because how can a player who’s been developed from 8-16 at Ipswich (for example) then go to Chelsea for 2 years and then Chelsea get all the benefit in buy back / sell on and big fees - it’s not right and needs changing such as if you develop a player for 6 years and they move on, you are due 50% of the sell on fee as mandatory and that club can’t include certain clauses into future deals. |
I wouldn't disagree.
From my experience as a parent in kids football atm, the scouts are looking for big fast athletes, not technical players. | |
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