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Just thought I'd transcribe how Michael Buerk introduced this evening's upcoming edition of The Moral Maze:
"If you want to see the future, go to Slough; it's home to Europe's largest AI Data Centre hub. Don't worry, there could soon be a centre near you; there's a hundred on the stocks in the UK alone. Some using as much energy as a town, and taking millions of litres of water to keep cool.
This, they say, is technology's greatest leap forward, promising us prosperity and security, but for others the price is already too high, with some having to make sacrifices now, so the tech giants can build their scary new world.
What price the AI future?"
8pm Radio 4.
The above intro followed soon after by a very concerned and adult Gordon Brown speaking about 'this very big rise in fuel bills that's going to take place during the winter months... on top of... conditions around the world'
Woo-hoo for the techno capitalist social integrity and planet destroyers!
On we charge like a bunch of pissed lemmings.
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
What price the AI future? on 08:38 - Aug 26 by naa
The thing with AI is I can't think of anything that it is really going to help us with.
I have a massive list of negatives. Yet they carry on regardless.
There are all sorts of possible benefits in any application that needs massive amounts of information analysis. It could massively speed up research and development. The trouble is that the security is so loose around it and the issues with copyright owenership and stuff like that mean that a lot of organisations won't touch it.
In short: it could be useful, but rather than being developed for the benefit of all, it's being developed for the enrichment and control by the few.
Yep, that’s quite a loaded intro from Buerk and fair enough to worry about the local hit. If you drop a hyperscale data centre into one place it can be “as much energy as a town”, and depending on the cooling design it can use a lot of water. But it’s still only half the story.
The International Energy Agency put global data centre electricity use at about 460 TWh in 2022 (still under ~2% of global electricity). The issue is growth: the IEA’s Electricity 2024 outlook had data centres (+ AI + crypto) rising to around ~1000 TWh this year. So completely agree there’s a real short‑term “this is a lot, right here, right now” problem but it doesn’t automatically mean it’s net-negative overall and needs to be placed in context.
Where I think the intro is a bit one-sided is it frames AI/ Large Data Centres as basically “burn electricity and boil water so tech giants get richer”. In reality, centralised cloud data centres are usually more efficient than everyone running their own server rooms: a common comparison is PUE ~1.25 for public cloud vs ~1.63 for on‑prem enterprise, and some hyperscalers report ~1.10–1.14 fleet PUE. That’s not hand-waving my own firm moved to the cloud and we’ve shut 7 dedicated data centres and removed thousands of smaller servers from local onsite data rooms globally and as a result reduced our power consumption.
Multiply that pattern across tens of thousands of companies and you can see why “big data centre hub” isn’t automatically worse than “millions of smaller, inefficient server rooms everywhere” - these iterative changes are often ignored/overlooked.
On the “fuel bills / Gordon Brown” bit: it’s a stretch to imply data centres are the main reason bills rise in winter. Household energy costs are dominated by wholesale markets, geopolitics, network constraints, and the fact the UK has loads of leaky homes (in England, only about ~56% of homes are EPC C or above as of 2024).
Also, if we’re talking waste in the system, we literally pay to throw away clean energy already: 2024 estimates put UK wind curtailment at around ~8.3 TWh with costs around ~£393m (and 2023 is often cited around ~4 TWh curtailed with constraint costs around ~£920m).
Better AI Assisted forecasting and optimisation is one of the tools that reduces that mess. And the long-run upside isn’t hypothetical either: PwC (commissioned by Microsoft for transparency) estimated AI could cut global emissions by up to ~4% (~2.4 GtCO2e) by 2030, and Grantham Research/Systemiq suggest ~3.2–5.4 GtCO2e per year by 2035 in big sectors if applied properly.
None of this is “woo-hoo, build anything anywhere”; it’s more "build it with strings attached"; additional low‑carbon power, grid upgrades, and transparent water reporting (WUE). Again Microsoft reports average WUE ~0.30 L/kWh and Meta about ~0.18 L/kWh, and Microsoft is even working on new designs aiming for zero water evaporation for cooling.
That’s the balance missing from the initial post: fully agree the local impacts are real, but the system-wide benefits can outweigh them if we stop treating it like a culture war on AI and Tech and regulate it like infrastructure - over to the governments and the energy / water companies to step up and make it happen.
[Post edited 26 Aug 9:02]
1
What price the AI future? on 09:21 - Aug 26 with 1541 views
What price the AI future? on 09:00 - Aug 26 by bsw72
Yep, that’s quite a loaded intro from Buerk and fair enough to worry about the local hit. If you drop a hyperscale data centre into one place it can be “as much energy as a town”, and depending on the cooling design it can use a lot of water. But it’s still only half the story.
The International Energy Agency put global data centre electricity use at about 460 TWh in 2022 (still under ~2% of global electricity). The issue is growth: the IEA’s Electricity 2024 outlook had data centres (+ AI + crypto) rising to around ~1000 TWh this year. So completely agree there’s a real short‑term “this is a lot, right here, right now” problem but it doesn’t automatically mean it’s net-negative overall and needs to be placed in context.
Where I think the intro is a bit one-sided is it frames AI/ Large Data Centres as basically “burn electricity and boil water so tech giants get richer”. In reality, centralised cloud data centres are usually more efficient than everyone running their own server rooms: a common comparison is PUE ~1.25 for public cloud vs ~1.63 for on‑prem enterprise, and some hyperscalers report ~1.10–1.14 fleet PUE. That’s not hand-waving my own firm moved to the cloud and we’ve shut 7 dedicated data centres and removed thousands of smaller servers from local onsite data rooms globally and as a result reduced our power consumption.
Multiply that pattern across tens of thousands of companies and you can see why “big data centre hub” isn’t automatically worse than “millions of smaller, inefficient server rooms everywhere” - these iterative changes are often ignored/overlooked.
On the “fuel bills / Gordon Brown” bit: it’s a stretch to imply data centres are the main reason bills rise in winter. Household energy costs are dominated by wholesale markets, geopolitics, network constraints, and the fact the UK has loads of leaky homes (in England, only about ~56% of homes are EPC C or above as of 2024).
Also, if we’re talking waste in the system, we literally pay to throw away clean energy already: 2024 estimates put UK wind curtailment at around ~8.3 TWh with costs around ~£393m (and 2023 is often cited around ~4 TWh curtailed with constraint costs around ~£920m).
Better AI Assisted forecasting and optimisation is one of the tools that reduces that mess. And the long-run upside isn’t hypothetical either: PwC (commissioned by Microsoft for transparency) estimated AI could cut global emissions by up to ~4% (~2.4 GtCO2e) by 2030, and Grantham Research/Systemiq suggest ~3.2–5.4 GtCO2e per year by 2035 in big sectors if applied properly.
None of this is “woo-hoo, build anything anywhere”; it’s more "build it with strings attached"; additional low‑carbon power, grid upgrades, and transparent water reporting (WUE). Again Microsoft reports average WUE ~0.30 L/kWh and Meta about ~0.18 L/kWh, and Microsoft is even working on new designs aiming for zero water evaporation for cooling.
That’s the balance missing from the initial post: fully agree the local impacts are real, but the system-wide benefits can outweigh them if we stop treating it like a culture war on AI and Tech and regulate it like infrastructure - over to the governments and the energy / water companies to step up and make it happen.
[Post edited 26 Aug 9:02]
Thanks for a hell of a lot of informative detail there, which I take as accurate given your obvious knowledge of the subject.
The efficiency stuff is logical and I assumed that would be the case anyway, what's of more concern to me - and data processing is just a very clear and contemporary example of it - is our desire to just plough on with expansion in energy use > greenhouse gas emissions > heating up, set against our ridiculous, pissy, suicidal response to AGW.
Data processing is still a smallish - but not that small - chunk, but the danger is that it lacks a natural brake, as 'demand' is not really constrained by a traditional market saturation limit - think w@nky crypto, and free-to-all fkwit AI video generation - (if that makes sense as an 'economics' description), and it has the very obvious capacity to expand at a frightening rate because of that lack of restraints and because we're still stupid enough to chase $ regardless of consequence.
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
What price the AI future? on 08:42 - Aug 26 by Swansea_Blue
There are all sorts of possible benefits in any application that needs massive amounts of information analysis. It could massively speed up research and development. The trouble is that the security is so loose around it and the issues with copyright owenership and stuff like that mean that a lot of organisations won't touch it.
In short: it could be useful, but rather than being developed for the benefit of all, it's being developed for the enrichment and control by the few.
This is the problem across new technologies at the moment, there could be benefits for the wider population but pretty much every big tech company is run by sociopaths whose only focus is enriching themselves.
2
What price the AI future? on 09:55 - Aug 26 with 1451 views
What price the AI future? on 08:38 - Aug 26 by naa
The thing with AI is I can't think of anything that it is really going to help us with.
I have a massive list of negatives. Yet they carry on regardless.
To me, it’s not about helping us, it’s about making money, and the whole thing is terrifying.
Take the NHS, it won’t be long until AI replaces doctors receptionists and books you an appointment in an instant, with no need to wait on hold for half an hour. Brilliant right? They’re always miserable anyway, and it’ll save the NHS £100million to be used on front line services. Only 3,000 people will lose their jobs.
Then it’ll be GPs, you can still see a GP, but there’s now an app where you can speak to an AI GP instantly 24/7 and it has access to your medical records and can raise prescriptions and will cut the need of 75% of people seeing a GP. Brilliant, it’s a £200million saving and it makes everyone’s lives easier. Only 30,000 people will lose their jobs in a 75% cut to GP numbers.
Then there’s surgery, a robot surgeon can undertake your surgery and mistakes are 3% less likely. It can work 24/7 and several machines can be overseen by a single surgeon. It’ll cut the need for 75% of the surgeons we currently have, saving the NHS £300million and it’ll cut waiting lists down dramatically. Only 10,000 people will lose their jobs and training places will be cut by a quarter.
Then there’s mental health services. Rather than waiting 12 months to see a psychologist, we’ve created an app to help assess and maintain your mental health and it’s available 24/7 whenever you need it. There’ll still be psychologists but the app will help 60% of people improve their mental health and it’ll save the NHS £300million and dramatically cut down on wait times. Only 15,000 people will lose their jobs and training places will be cut by 60%
I could go on, but I can’t see a world where every career isn’t heavily affected by AI in the very near future. Where that leaves youngsters looking for jobs and careers, I have no idea. To me, we’re heading towards Elysium
3
What price the AI future? on 10:24 - Aug 26 with 1371 views
There are useful applications for AI, unfortunately instead we're getting 5000 awful business flyers/event posters, people making themselves into a Simpsons character and the worst predictive text of my lifetime. All at the expense of the planet and any economy that involves creative roles.
Generative AI is genuinely fcked up, anti-human and evil. Anytime someone starts a post with "put X into chatGPT" I roll my eyes so hard it shakes my wee bungalow.
[Post edited 26 Aug 10:25]
1
What price the AI future? on 10:42 - Aug 26 with 1318 views
What price the AI future? on 10:24 - Aug 26 by Libero
There are useful applications for AI, unfortunately instead we're getting 5000 awful business flyers/event posters, people making themselves into a Simpsons character and the worst predictive text of my lifetime. All at the expense of the planet and any economy that involves creative roles.
Generative AI is genuinely fcked up, anti-human and evil. Anytime someone starts a post with "put X into chatGPT" I roll my eyes so hard it shakes my wee bungalow.
[Post edited 26 Aug 10:25]
Indeed.
Panders to the worst, personally and globally, truly destructive elements of the flawed human psyche.
We have to face up to this reality if we want to survive.
We have the power to destroy our whole civilisation and much of life on this planet, and so far we're just not willing to let go of the ridiculous money addiction and mind-numbing opiate of trivialities even when we are clearly right under the overbearing threat of annihilation.
It's madness.
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
What price the AI future? on 10:42 - Aug 26 by NthQldITFC
Indeed.
Panders to the worst, personally and globally, truly destructive elements of the flawed human psyche.
We have to face up to this reality if we want to survive.
We have the power to destroy our whole civilisation and much of life on this planet, and so far we're just not willing to let go of the ridiculous money addiction and mind-numbing opiate of trivialities even when we are clearly right under the overbearing threat of annihilation.
It's madness.
You say "we" - but it's the amoral billionaires.
This clip of one such vacuous vessel lives in my head rent free...
Eat the rich.
1
What price the AI future? on 11:03 - Aug 26 with 1258 views
To me, it’s not about helping us, it’s about making money, and the whole thing is terrifying.
Take the NHS, it won’t be long until AI replaces doctors receptionists and books you an appointment in an instant, with no need to wait on hold for half an hour. Brilliant right? They’re always miserable anyway, and it’ll save the NHS £100million to be used on front line services. Only 3,000 people will lose their jobs.
Then it’ll be GPs, you can still see a GP, but there’s now an app where you can speak to an AI GP instantly 24/7 and it has access to your medical records and can raise prescriptions and will cut the need of 75% of people seeing a GP. Brilliant, it’s a £200million saving and it makes everyone’s lives easier. Only 30,000 people will lose their jobs in a 75% cut to GP numbers.
Then there’s surgery, a robot surgeon can undertake your surgery and mistakes are 3% less likely. It can work 24/7 and several machines can be overseen by a single surgeon. It’ll cut the need for 75% of the surgeons we currently have, saving the NHS £300million and it’ll cut waiting lists down dramatically. Only 10,000 people will lose their jobs and training places will be cut by a quarter.
Then there’s mental health services. Rather than waiting 12 months to see a psychologist, we’ve created an app to help assess and maintain your mental health and it’s available 24/7 whenever you need it. There’ll still be psychologists but the app will help 60% of people improve their mental health and it’ll save the NHS £300million and dramatically cut down on wait times. Only 15,000 people will lose their jobs and training places will be cut by 60%
I could go on, but I can’t see a world where every career isn’t heavily affected by AI in the very near future. Where that leaves youngsters looking for jobs and careers, I have no idea. To me, we’re heading towards Elysium
A lot of the things you described are exactly the same issues that came to fruition in the Industrial Revolution. Jobs will reduce in certain areas and new ones will be created. As it stands the kind of more admin, easily automated jobs AI is useful for are jobs that were all offshored anyway. One thing the Economist noted to Musk was that without jobs, there is no income streams for billionaires (and assets will be effectively worthless) so it’s not in their interest to decimate industry. A lot of this is being driven by FOMO and fear of falling behind China.
As a final thought, I have concerns around the contagion if AI turns out to be a bubble. The banks are funding the construction of data centres, the energy assets needed for them, chip manufacturers, software firms are all massively exposed. The hype is huge versus the actual revenue, and not all AI firms are going to make it…
2
What price the AI future? on 11:07 - Aug 26 with 1234 views
What price the AI future? on 09:21 - Aug 26 by NthQldITFC
Thanks for a hell of a lot of informative detail there, which I take as accurate given your obvious knowledge of the subject.
The efficiency stuff is logical and I assumed that would be the case anyway, what's of more concern to me - and data processing is just a very clear and contemporary example of it - is our desire to just plough on with expansion in energy use > greenhouse gas emissions > heating up, set against our ridiculous, pissy, suicidal response to AGW.
Data processing is still a smallish - but not that small - chunk, but the danger is that it lacks a natural brake, as 'demand' is not really constrained by a traditional market saturation limit - think w@nky crypto, and free-to-all fkwit AI video generation - (if that makes sense as an 'economics' description), and it has the very obvious capacity to expand at a frightening rate because of that lack of restraints and because we're still stupid enough to chase $ regardless of consequence.
I'm with you on the Crypto - 100%, and all the vacuous/superfluous uses of AI - but so much can be gained from this if done the right way and used the right way.
I do fully realise that my view may be somewhat utopian and written from a tech bias but I live in the hope that more good than bad comes from it.
1
What price the AI future? on 11:11 - Aug 26 with 1226 views
The Moral Maze is my hate listen. I really, really dislike Buerk and his barely veiled political stances. ANd as a programme, the format is so wack - have a panel of right-leaning (sometimes -wing) commentariat people who are invited to listen to experts who have devoted their entire life to a specific, often narrow, subject. Then they proceed to constantly interrupt and belittle them before, at the end, get a few minutes to push their final word to make sure their opinion is heard over any expert.
I particularly dislike the "Priest and polemicist" (who the feck calls themselves that with a straight face?) Giles Fraser and the whiney Tim Stanley.
What price the AI future? on 11:07 - Aug 26 by bsw72
I'm with you on the Crypto - 100%, and all the vacuous/superfluous uses of AI - but so much can be gained from this if done the right way and used the right way.
I do fully realise that my view may be somewhat utopian and written from a tech bias but I live in the hope that more good than bad comes from it.
By the same token, I realise that my view is somewhat dystopian, but the risks seem to be so high that it's maybe 'useful' to be a bit 'flowery' about it, if that helps people the think an reconsider a bit.
I have a science/IT background too, but my views are probably driven as much by my pessimistic opinion of human nature, or at least of the nature of the humans who are naturally at the top of the capital-obsessed tree.
Can see the possible gains as well, but corporate motive is almost always just profit and corporate attention span is short. Our damaged finite world and damaged social structure cannot handle this, I fear.
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
A lot of the things you described are exactly the same issues that came to fruition in the Industrial Revolution. Jobs will reduce in certain areas and new ones will be created. As it stands the kind of more admin, easily automated jobs AI is useful for are jobs that were all offshored anyway. One thing the Economist noted to Musk was that without jobs, there is no income streams for billionaires (and assets will be effectively worthless) so it’s not in their interest to decimate industry. A lot of this is being driven by FOMO and fear of falling behind China.
As a final thought, I have concerns around the contagion if AI turns out to be a bubble. The banks are funding the construction of data centres, the energy assets needed for them, chip manufacturers, software firms are all massively exposed. The hype is huge versus the actual revenue, and not all AI firms are going to make it…
Indeed. The problem is that the industrial revolution forced a huge amount of people to leave their quaint little villages where work had been decimated and move into back to back slums in cities just to survive. Kids being forced into work and a huge amount of death from poverty, and working conditions. It’s looked back upon as an incredible time, and it was for the people who became incredibly wealthy from it, but the vast majority were massively negatively affected which is exactly what I can see happening with AI. To me, there’s very little chance of the ‘new jobs’ being anywhere near as fulfilling, or well paid as the jobs they’ll be replacing.
I might be completely wrong, and I truly hope that I am, but I just don’t see it having a positive affect on the majority of people’s standard of living
1
What price the AI future? on 11:34 - Aug 26 with 1158 views
Indeed. The problem is that the industrial revolution forced a huge amount of people to leave their quaint little villages where work had been decimated and move into back to back slums in cities just to survive. Kids being forced into work and a huge amount of death from poverty, and working conditions. It’s looked back upon as an incredible time, and it was for the people who became incredibly wealthy from it, but the vast majority were massively negatively affected which is exactly what I can see happening with AI. To me, there’s very little chance of the ‘new jobs’ being anywhere near as fulfilling, or well paid as the jobs they’ll be replacing.
I might be completely wrong, and I truly hope that I am, but I just don’t see it having a positive affect on the majority of people’s standard of living
Which is all pretty relevant when you consider what another poster said about competing with China, who have significantly poorer working rights and conditions...
0
What price the AI future? on 11:40 - Aug 26 with 1135 views
What price the AI future? on 08:38 - Aug 26 by naa
The thing with AI is I can't think of anything that it is really going to help us with.
I have a massive list of negatives. Yet they carry on regardless.
Has others have alluded to, the alternative on a shared planet is akin to saying "lets not continue to develop guns because they are bad. Bows and arrows work just fine."
Unfortunately not everyone will agree and doing nothing won't end well either.
0
What price the AI future? on 13:02 - Aug 26 with 1029 views
To me, it’s not about helping us, it’s about making money, and the whole thing is terrifying.
Take the NHS, it won’t be long until AI replaces doctors receptionists and books you an appointment in an instant, with no need to wait on hold for half an hour. Brilliant right? They’re always miserable anyway, and it’ll save the NHS £100million to be used on front line services. Only 3,000 people will lose their jobs.
Then it’ll be GPs, you can still see a GP, but there’s now an app where you can speak to an AI GP instantly 24/7 and it has access to your medical records and can raise prescriptions and will cut the need of 75% of people seeing a GP. Brilliant, it’s a £200million saving and it makes everyone’s lives easier. Only 30,000 people will lose their jobs in a 75% cut to GP numbers.
Then there’s surgery, a robot surgeon can undertake your surgery and mistakes are 3% less likely. It can work 24/7 and several machines can be overseen by a single surgeon. It’ll cut the need for 75% of the surgeons we currently have, saving the NHS £300million and it’ll cut waiting lists down dramatically. Only 10,000 people will lose their jobs and training places will be cut by a quarter.
Then there’s mental health services. Rather than waiting 12 months to see a psychologist, we’ve created an app to help assess and maintain your mental health and it’s available 24/7 whenever you need it. There’ll still be psychologists but the app will help 60% of people improve their mental health and it’ll save the NHS £300million and dramatically cut down on wait times. Only 15,000 people will lose their jobs and training places will be cut by 60%
I could go on, but I can’t see a world where every career isn’t heavily affected by AI in the very near future. Where that leaves youngsters looking for jobs and careers, I have no idea. To me, we’re heading towards Elysium
Not sure AI could cope with the paperwork side of the NHS, with their problems not being able to create an all singing and dancing, joined up IT system
0
What price the AI future? on 13:41 - Aug 26 with 949 views
Well if people will keep using the Internet...im not quite sure people get what data centres really are.
How do you think TWTD works ? its not running off Phils laptop under his desk, its hosted on a server in a room with lots of other servers, running other stuff, some of which is ai focussed, some not. the room is on an industrial estate somewhere, it uses alot of energy to run power and keep the servers cool via aircon, and has a big fat pipe to connect to the rest of the network.
Its infact called a data centre.
The water usage thing is based on the electricity generation to power the site and even the manufacturing of components. Actual liquid cooled servers probably account for at most half of the stuff solely based in the UK. Of course it being the Internet and a global network you could via any of the numerous webservice hosting services be running off any server in any room in any part of the world.
-1
What price the AI future? on 13:49 - Aug 26 with 939 views
What price the AI future? on 13:41 - Aug 26 by stonojnr
Well if people will keep using the Internet...im not quite sure people get what data centres really are.
How do you think TWTD works ? its not running off Phils laptop under his desk, its hosted on a server in a room with lots of other servers, running other stuff, some of which is ai focussed, some not. the room is on an industrial estate somewhere, it uses alot of energy to run power and keep the servers cool via aircon, and has a big fat pipe to connect to the rest of the network.
Its infact called a data centre.
The water usage thing is based on the electricity generation to power the site and even the manufacturing of components. Actual liquid cooled servers probably account for at most half of the stuff solely based in the UK. Of course it being the Internet and a global network you could via any of the numerous webservice hosting services be running off any server in any room in any part of the world.
Yes. This is about scale.
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
What price the AI future? on 08:38 - Aug 26 by naa
The thing with AI is I can't think of anything that it is really going to help us with.
I have a massive list of negatives. Yet they carry on regardless.
I have a massive list of positives. I would agree with anyone that says we need to keep some control over it. Just like any other tool, great in the right hands, rather less so in the wrong ones. Just like any other revolution mankind takes some time to adjust. And I post as a 71yo, who uses it frequently in various guises.
0
What price the AI future? on 21:03 - Aug 26 with 604 views
I have a massive list of positives. I would agree with anyone that says we need to keep some control over it. Just like any other tool, great in the right hands, rather less so in the wrong ones. Just like any other revolution mankind takes some time to adjust. And I post as a 71yo, who uses it frequently in various guises.
What, like whilst dressed as a pirate, or a Frenchman?
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
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