| Food poverty solution? 09:53 - Jan 25 with 2898 views | GavTWTD |
Ok, so I was thinking this morning and I wondered if you good people could rip my idea to shreds because you are more wise than I.
Supermarkets get crazy profits, so I wondered if it were possible to create a charitable supermarket. They cost fortunes to build so that's the big stumbling block, but once built, it could be run to break even for the benefit of the poor.
The supermarket might be looked down on, but if you weren't poor but wanted to do your bit for the charity then you'd also shop there as next to the value-at-cost foods, you'd then have your named brands at higher prices. It would need to have a positive brand image.
Foodbank vouchers would be valid there, and a reward scheme would be created purely for those in need. Perhaps those better off would get a statement to say how much they had raised by shopping there.
Might even be a way to use the high street buildings that will remain empty like Debenhams. Could possibly have smaller charity units inside selling their donated goods if they had the space.
There could be an element of education in store, such as how to eat healthily on a very low budget. Recipe ideas. Perhaps tie-ins with energy companies with tailored tariffs or something similar.
Forgive me if I have a complete misunderstanding of what food poverty is. I thankfully haven't been in that situation, but I like the idea of a supermarket that isn't run for profit, that benefits the poor. That's the main thrust of the idea.
Ok, I'm expecting a battering over this... |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 09:57 - Jan 25 with 2624 views | Pendejo |
You identify the biggest stumbling block - set up costs
The nearest thing to this in existence is the Co-op |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 09:58 - Jan 25 with 2615 views | Keno |
Its nit a bad shout, and in same areas I believe places like that are set up.
Maybe all the soon to be vacant old Debenhams stores could be put to this use? |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:02 - Jan 25 with 2599 views | EdwardStone |
Nice idea Gav
I think that something similar to your suggestion was tried in South London (?) maybe 15 years ago...not sure if it ever really took off. I remember seeing a bit on tv about it at the time and thinking that it was a sweet idea |  | | |
| Food poverty solution? on 10:04 - Jan 25 with 2589 views | bluelagos |
So with my capatalist hat on, I'd observe that businesses looking to maximise profit will likely be way more efficient / motivated that a charitable exercise in procurement. So as noble as your idea is, I'd wouldn't expect to see lower prices. You been to a co-op recently? Way more expensive than a visit to tescos.
With my tree hugging hat on I note that on my last time I went to the states, I came across a supermarket called Publix. Way better service than Walmart etc. with great quality and decent prices. They would have a sandwich bar where they would make a sarnie in front of you, really great service. Time and again they were clean, well run and really good prices and food.
When I looked them up, turned out they are owned by their employees, bit like John Lewis/Waitrose are. So it can be done, they do it there and they do it brilliantly. Not sure why the Co-op / Waitrose are so expensive and why they haven't managed to replicate the Publix standards or pricing. |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:09 - Jan 25 with 2566 views | Guthrum |
One issue in the early stages is that the existing large supermarkets can use their size to drive down costs, particularly the wholesale price of some items.
One example is milk. What the supermarkets insist on paying the farmers is barely enough to cover production costs. That is how they make a profit.
The risk is that, like farm shops, you would end up being more expensive than the for-profit competition. |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:12 - Jan 25 with 2551 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Seems a rather extreme way to get cheaper Hobnobs, Gav.
It's a good idea if you can get one of these guys to build them/kit them out;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55793575
Only half joking. As someone else said, your main issue is the start-up costs, kitting out the buildings and hiring staff (shop floor plus people to negotiate contracts with suppliers, delivery people and vehicles etc). Even massive charities like Oxfam only have tiny little shops with a couple of staff, and they took years to get to that point.
In theory I like it though. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:17 - Jan 25 with 2522 views | Bluefish |
I am in the process of opening a not for profit bar with all profit spent on providing sports facilities for the local community. If it works I'll let you know if the supermarket is viable.
Supermarkets need a niche. Aldi and lidl are so cheap it is hard to compete. Tesco and Sainsburys have soany products and Asda seems to appeal to those unable to dress themselves. The community angle needs to try and compete against those things as well
Love the idea though |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:23 - Jan 25 with 2503 views | eireblue |
Interesting.
That is almost what supermarkets have to day with their basics/essential lines.
Maybe an alternative would be to have existing supermarkets have “Essential” stores.
Instead of Tesco Metro, you get Tesco Community, Waitrose Community etc..
There would have to be some form of Government Tax incentive/enforcement.
That may help with using supermarket buying power, to get lower prices, and specific stores would be run with zero profit.
Maybe run in conjunction or overseen with a food bank charity.
Not sure how well that would be seen in terms of competition from places like Lidl, Aldi.
Also, instead of having FoodBank collection points in supermarkets, could do something like allow people to automatically donate a percentage of their purchase total, to a foodbank/community supermarket. |  | | |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:26 - Jan 25 with 2490 views | IP12 |
The biggest problem that I would see is people......I live on the coast close to Woodbridge and there are people that I know who are retired and in receipt of substantial pensions from employment. You can still find them frequenting local food-banks when they have no need to. As an idea I think it's excellent provided you can get the 'right people' (those in need who can do with the help) using it. |  | | |
| Food poverty solution? on 10:39 - Jan 25 with 2468 views | lowhouseblue |
and we could call it the co-op. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:45 - Jan 25 with 2458 views | GavTWTD |
| Food poverty solution? on 10:39 - Jan 25 by lowhouseblue |
and we could call it the co-op. |
I often use the coop but it's a long way from what I was suggesting. The quality and price of their goods is high. | |
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| Food poverty solution? on 10:54 - Jan 25 with 2439 views | lowhouseblue |
| Food poverty solution? on 10:45 - Jan 25 by GavTWTD |
I often use the coop but it's a long way from what I was suggesting. The quality and price of their goods is high. |
but it's not for profit and it was set up for exactly the purposes you describe. it has shifted over time in to higher value added stuff because it was the only way of keeping customers. if it had kept to only basics not enough people would have used it and it would have gone bust even on a not for profit basis. but the basic premise of the cooperative movement - with dividends paid to members and no profits - is exactly as you describe. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Food poverty solution? on 11:07 - Jan 25 with 2415 views | GavTWTD |
| Food poverty solution? on 10:54 - Jan 25 by lowhouseblue |
but it's not for profit and it was set up for exactly the purposes you describe. it has shifted over time in to higher value added stuff because it was the only way of keeping customers. if it had kept to only basics not enough people would have used it and it would have gone bust even on a not for profit basis. but the basic premise of the cooperative movement - with dividends paid to members and no profits - is exactly as you describe. |
"is exactly as you describe" is obviously and completely wrong.
I said "a supermarket that isn't run for profit, that benefits the poor" is what I said. Not "sell high priced goods that are out of reach of people on benefits". | |
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| Food poverty solution? on 11:23 - Jan 25 with 2382 views | EdwardStone |
Yup...I think that's the one
Not South London .... | | | |
| Food poverty solution? on 11:27 - Jan 25 with 2373 views | lowhouseblue |
| Food poverty solution? on 11:07 - Jan 25 by GavTWTD |
"is exactly as you describe" is obviously and completely wrong.
I said "a supermarket that isn't run for profit, that benefits the poor" is what I said. Not "sell high priced goods that are out of reach of people on benefits". |
i said: "but it's not for profit and it was set up for exactly the purposes you describe".
it is not for profit and it was set up for exactly the purposes you describe. it was set up to benefit the poor. if you look up the origins of the cooperative movement in rochdale you'll see that is true. I then said said that it had moved on to selling higher value stuff because just doing the basics isn't a viable model if you have to compete with sainsbury's etc.
it does still sell basics at good prices and it doesn't make profits. [Post edited 25 Jan 2021 11:28]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Food poverty solution? on 11:34 - Jan 25 with 2358 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Food poverty solution? on 11:27 - Jan 25 by lowhouseblue |
i said: "but it's not for profit and it was set up for exactly the purposes you describe".
it is not for profit and it was set up for exactly the purposes you describe. it was set up to benefit the poor. if you look up the origins of the cooperative movement in rochdale you'll see that is true. I then said said that it had moved on to selling higher value stuff because just doing the basics isn't a viable model if you have to compete with sainsbury's etc.
it does still sell basics at good prices and it doesn't make profits. [Post edited 25 Jan 2021 11:28]
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It does make profits... which go to its members. It's not the same as a 'not-for-profit' organisation. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Food poverty solution? on 11:41 - Jan 25 with 2341 views | lowhouseblue |
| Food poverty solution? on 11:34 - Jan 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It does make profits... which go to its members. It's not the same as a 'not-for-profit' organisation. |
membership organisation which pays a very limited divy based on purchases is very different from a company which pays profit to shareholders. it's profits are re-invested and the divy is a pretty notional concept and isn't something that drives its decision making. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Food poverty solution? on 12:01 - Jan 25 with 2312 views | MedwayTractor |
| Food poverty solution? on 10:04 - Jan 25 by bluelagos |
So with my capatalist hat on, I'd observe that businesses looking to maximise profit will likely be way more efficient / motivated that a charitable exercise in procurement. So as noble as your idea is, I'd wouldn't expect to see lower prices. You been to a co-op recently? Way more expensive than a visit to tescos.
With my tree hugging hat on I note that on my last time I went to the states, I came across a supermarket called Publix. Way better service than Walmart etc. with great quality and decent prices. They would have a sandwich bar where they would make a sarnie in front of you, really great service. Time and again they were clean, well run and really good prices and food.
When I looked them up, turned out they are owned by their employees, bit like John Lewis/Waitrose are. So it can be done, they do it there and they do it brilliantly. Not sure why the Co-op / Waitrose are so expensive and why they haven't managed to replicate the Publix standards or pricing. |
Co-op is more expensive than the big boys because they don't have the same economies of scale, ie mostly smaller units in local centres, carrying fewer lines, especially own brands. Also, they can charge more because the alternative is for customers to spend money travelling to the larger stores, in the same way that petrol or diesel is more expensive in filling stations where there is no immediate competition. To my mind, Co-op is little more than another convenience store (here in Kent, anyway) and we all know that they make you pay more for the convenience of local availability. Convenience stores make their money by penalising those with less money, because these people often have no alternative. All of which is highly ironic, bearing in mind that the co-operative movement began with much the same idea as Gav's OP.
Waitrose, on the other hand, is pitched deliberately at the higher end of the market. A good example of this was in the programme last night about cakes. Much of it featured a Leicestershire company which supplies Waitrose with (sort of) hand made cakes, boxed in quality packaging. The company's main claim to fame is that it made the cake for William & Kate's wedding. I couldn't for a moment see Tesco or Morrisons, let alone Aldi & Lidl, selling that sort of high value stuff. |  |
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| Food poverty solution? on 12:05 - Jan 25 with 2307 views | thebooks |
Isn’t the solution to “food” poverty (which is really better known as “poverty”) to provide enough money for people to live on decently?
I like the idea of a state run supermarket for everyone, though, without it just being for “poor” people. |  | | |
| Food poverty solution? on 12:14 - Jan 25 with 2276 views | Darth_Koont |
There is a simpler and more sustainable route out of food poverty and that is to raise the floor on the benefits system to ensure that it isn’t an issue.
As for paying for it, I’d have said the UK having one of the lowest combinations of income tax for middle and high earners as well as corporate tax is a good place to start. As well as clamping down on the many tax avoidance loopholes.
While I like the idea of more worker-owned companies and “good” socially beneficial companies, I think that these are problematic as a main strategy. We already have charity filling the gaps with poverty, social care, healthcare and education initiatives. But it rather detracts from generations of politician and governments not actually looking after the country as a whole and not resolving the underlying structural weaknesses and injustices. They’ve successfully pushed these problems onto society and the most vulnerable with no apparent benefit to the economy if our wage stagnation and low productivity are anything to go by.
Edit: And of course with in-work poverty a major part of this there’s no excuse for not paying a higher minimum wage and restricting zero hours contracts to those who are only working part-time already. [Post edited 25 Jan 2021 12:21]
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| Food poverty solution? on 12:26 - Jan 25 with 2246 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Food poverty solution? on 11:41 - Jan 25 by lowhouseblue |
membership organisation which pays a very limited divy based on purchases is very different from a company which pays profit to shareholders. it's profits are re-invested and the divy is a pretty notional concept and isn't something that drives its decision making. |
Not really the point. I've not suggested it's like a company which pays profit to shareholders. Gav's talking about a not-for-profit company which ploughs EVERYTHING back into helping the poor. Your assertion that the co-op is the same is incorrect. I say that as a co-op member. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Food poverty solution? on 12:30 - Jan 25 with 2236 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Food poverty solution? on 12:14 - Jan 25 by Darth_Koont |
There is a simpler and more sustainable route out of food poverty and that is to raise the floor on the benefits system to ensure that it isn’t an issue.
As for paying for it, I’d have said the UK having one of the lowest combinations of income tax for middle and high earners as well as corporate tax is a good place to start. As well as clamping down on the many tax avoidance loopholes.
While I like the idea of more worker-owned companies and “good” socially beneficial companies, I think that these are problematic as a main strategy. We already have charity filling the gaps with poverty, social care, healthcare and education initiatives. But it rather detracts from generations of politician and governments not actually looking after the country as a whole and not resolving the underlying structural weaknesses and injustices. They’ve successfully pushed these problems onto society and the most vulnerable with no apparent benefit to the economy if our wage stagnation and low productivity are anything to go by.
Edit: And of course with in-work poverty a major part of this there’s no excuse for not paying a higher minimum wage and restricting zero hours contracts to those who are only working part-time already. [Post edited 25 Jan 2021 12:21]
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The Real Living Wage, basically. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Food poverty solution? on 12:39 - Jan 25 with 2223 views | jaykay |
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| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Food poverty solution? on 12:46 - Jan 25 with 2211 views | You_Bloo_Right |
If we can also secure the means of production I'm in.
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