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I have tried google, but am hoping TWTD will be more helpful.
Does anyone know of examples in other countries of punishments which are designed to fit the crime? To be clear, I am not talking about the severity of the sentence, or about gruesome stuff like cutting off the hands of pickpockets, but more about very specific/ingenious punishments for relatively minor offences.
I know in the USA they have 'shaming' punishments whereby offenders have to stand out supermarkets with 'I am a shoplifter' signs around their necks. Again, I'm not so interested in this.
What I'm interested in is does anyone know of a place that has punishments of a 'see-how-you-like-it?' type? For example, 'you don't clear up after your dog, we'll dump a load of dog poo on your front step'. I guess I'm thinking of things like fly-tipping, chucking litter out of cars, stealing plants from public parks, and doing graffiti. (I'm guessing there ARE places where for the last one the punishment is to clean it off?)
I should say, I'm not saying such punishments are necessarily a good idea. In general I guess 'weird and wonderful' punishments, mostly involving shaming, are rightly considered Mediaeval. But I'm writing something, and have reached the conclusion that such punishments are few and far between nowadays. I wonder if any of you well-traveled people have come across anything.
I regularly passed lynching corner in Monrovia where thieves dead bodies were left for all to see and as a reminder of the punishments dished out for stealing.
The absence of functioning law and order leads to people taking things into their own hands, which often leads to innocent people being killed.
Nigeria had a well publicised case of a couple of students macheted to death and it was videoed and is am sure on youtube somewhere. Only problem was the stolen phone then turned up and they had killed innocent people.
Such mob rule is always going to be unsatisfactory, see also the attack on a paedratricians business during the height of paedophile fear gripping the uk.
We also do a few things in terms of shaming people. We have open courts and pretty much every conviction is reported. The other thing we do is put people in yellow jackets when they are doing community service. See a group of yellow jacketed guys cleaning up a public garden, it's often people doing community service.
Restorative justice I think is worth a google. Also worth a read up on what they did in South Africa and Rwanda in terms of truth and reconcilliation. Not always about punishing people, but about the truth being out there.
Tends to be how a lot of wars work. Violence and aggression is most often answered in kind and seen as just, which shows how backwards it really is.
This isn’t another Great Kangaroo War post by the way.
I stumbled across a game of amputee footie in Monrovia, Liberia playing Sierra Leone.
Spoke to the coach who explained how the Liberians were seen as victims of war, where as in many African countries amputees faced stigma as they were often punishments.
Both countries were amongst the worlds best, primarily due to the high number of (otherwise) young men who lost linbs during the war.
I regularly passed lynching corner in Monrovia where thieves dead bodies were left for all to see and as a reminder of the punishments dished out for stealing.
The absence of functioning law and order leads to people taking things into their own hands, which often leads to innocent people being killed.
Nigeria had a well publicised case of a couple of students macheted to death and it was videoed and is am sure on youtube somewhere. Only problem was the stolen phone then turned up and they had killed innocent people.
Such mob rule is always going to be unsatisfactory, see also the attack on a paedratricians business during the height of paedophile fear gripping the uk.
We also do a few things in terms of shaming people. We have open courts and pretty much every conviction is reported. The other thing we do is put people in yellow jackets when they are doing community service. See a group of yellow jacketed guys cleaning up a public garden, it's often people doing community service.
Restorative justice I think is worth a google. Also worth a read up on what they did in South Africa and Rwanda in terms of truth and reconcilliation. Not always about punishing people, but about the truth being out there.
As you say, the South African and Rwandan Truth and Reconciliation approaches have been massively vindicated. Compared to the standard Justice and Retribution responses that never seem to break the cycle of violence.
It’s basic human nature that people are brutalized by violence – and demonstrated in the US particularly that strong-arm tactics of law and order worsen the situation and fan the flames rather than putting them out.
As you say, the South African and Rwandan Truth and Reconciliation approaches have been massively vindicated. Compared to the standard Justice and Retribution responses that never seem to break the cycle of violence.
It’s basic human nature that people are brutalized by violence – and demonstrated in the US particularly that strong-arm tactics of law and order worsen the situation and fan the flames rather than putting them out.
It's also been proven that punishments like the death penalty don't act as a deterent. See New Zealand murder rates when they introduced said penalty. Didnt make any difference.
But it feeds the desire for retribution which many have.
When I was living/working in Saudi they still had beheadings in "Chop Chop Square"
This was normally reserved for rapists, murderers etc, but there were stories of (normally) immigrants meeting a similar fate for crimes that would be seen very differently if you were a Saudi citizen.
I don't agree with any death penalty btw, but cultures are clearly different around the world. Horrific stories from colleagues of public killings in parts of Africa too. Nigeria, Sudan spring to mind too
When I was living/working in Saudi they still had beheadings in "Chop Chop Square"
This was normally reserved for rapists, murderers etc, but there were stories of (normally) immigrants meeting a similar fate for crimes that would be seen very differently if you were a Saudi citizen.
I don't agree with any death penalty btw, but cultures are clearly different around the world. Horrific stories from colleagues of public killings in parts of Africa too. Nigeria, Sudan spring to mind too
A friend of ours witnessed somebody stoned to death in Saudi. Not a bunch of people throwing rocks or pebbles at the victim, but said victim being chucked in a hole and having a large dumper truck of rubble emptied on them.
When I was living/working in Saudi they still had beheadings in "Chop Chop Square"
This was normally reserved for rapists, murderers etc, but there were stories of (normally) immigrants meeting a similar fate for crimes that would be seen very differently if you were a Saudi citizen.
I don't agree with any death penalty btw, but cultures are clearly different around the world. Horrific stories from colleagues of public killings in parts of Africa too. Nigeria, Sudan spring to mind too
That was the one I was thinking of. There was widespread disgust at what happened, but like I say, if you don't have a functioning justice system, people will revert to their own justice systems.
A friend of ours witnessed somebody stoned to death in Saudi. Not a bunch of people throwing rocks or pebbles at the victim, but said victim being chucked in a hole and having a large dumper truck of rubble emptied on them.
Efficient and humane... 😕
And is the final piece of action in the LoB stoning scene, sort of.
A friend of ours witnessed somebody stoned to death in Saudi. Not a bunch of people throwing rocks or pebbles at the victim, but said victim being chucked in a hole and having a large dumper truck of rubble emptied on them.
Tory councils will suggest similar for filling potholes in this post-brexit world i'm sure
There was a judge in america who made the news a few years ago for handing out inventive punishments. He was bit of a day time TV show star on those court showings they screen over there.
Pretty sure in Sweden fines (certainly for motoring offences) are scaled according to affordability to pay - ie you earn a good wage and have decent savings = higher fine. If you're not so well off it's scaled down.
Pretty sure in Sweden fines (certainly for motoring offences) are scaled according to affordability to pay - ie you earn a good wage and have decent savings = higher fine. If you're not so well off it's scaled down.
Pretty sure that's the case here if you are unsuccessful fighting a fixed penalty in court, fine being income based.
It's also been proven that punishments like the death penalty don't act as a deterent. See New Zealand murder rates when they introduced said penalty. Didnt make any difference.
But it feeds the desire for retribution which many have.
The death penalty - or physical mutilation - was used historically because lengthy imprisonment (let alone rehabilitation) was not a viable option. There simply wasn't the infrastructure. It's notable that from the mid 17th to the 19th centuries, a large proportion of death sentences were commuted to transportation (to America and later Australia) instead.
In early medieval Europe it was also the state taking over from the private feud system. Substituting officially regulated killing for cycles of murder and counter-murder.
Pretty sure that's the case here if you are unsuccessful fighting a fixed penalty in court, fine being income based.
Supposed to be the same here, but not convinced.
My one and only ever speeding ticket (20 years ago) - in court the same week as Princess Anne got one. We were both fined for speeding (within 2mph) and I got a bigger fine. And they had that at the time, I had to detail all my earnings / main expenses as the fine was based on earnings.
When I was living/working in Saudi they still had beheadings in "Chop Chop Square"
This was normally reserved for rapists, murderers etc, but there were stories of (normally) immigrants meeting a similar fate for crimes that would be seen very differently if you were a Saudi citizen.
I don't agree with any death penalty btw, but cultures are clearly different around the world. Horrific stories from colleagues of public killings in parts of Africa too. Nigeria, Sudan spring to mind too
in the 70s i worked in jeddah, and on our day off which was a friday, we use to go for motor bike rides. we decided to go taif up in the mountains. we needed fuel for our return trip and pulled in a filling station in the town centre. as we pulled out we saw a large crowd, so being nosey we parked up and went for a look. when they saw we were westerns , they pushed us to front and were told this is how we treat petty criminals. 2 yemenis were bought out for a canning. they were knelt down and given around 12 strokes by a large cane. the only thing i can say is the person doing the canning had to have the koran gripped under his arm ,so couldn't administer savage beating
forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows
in the 70s i worked in jeddah, and on our day off which was a friday, we use to go for motor bike rides. we decided to go taif up in the mountains. we needed fuel for our return trip and pulled in a filling station in the town centre. as we pulled out we saw a large crowd, so being nosey we parked up and went for a look. when they saw we were westerns , they pushed us to front and were told this is how we treat petty criminals. 2 yemenis were bought out for a canning. they were knelt down and given around 12 strokes by a large cane. the only thing i can say is the person doing the canning had to have the koran gripped under his arm ,so couldn't administer savage beating
People here pay good money to be treated like that (allegedly )
My one and only ever speeding ticket (20 years ago) - in court the same week as Princess Anne got one. We were both fined for speeding (within 2mph) and I got a bigger fine. And they had that at the time, I had to detail all my earnings / main expenses as the fine was based on earnings.
Sorry I cannot think of anything off the top of my head but talking this from the basic three GJAs (General Justifying Aims) of punishment I think you have two avenues of enquiry. You can discount the retribution style of graphically described earlier in this thread by Lagos, Elder Grizzly and jaykay because Lex Talonis (an eye for an eye) is aimed at giving the victim the satisfaction of knowing that the perpetrator is suffering what they, or someone close to them has had to suffer.
The deterrent GJA offers some chance of a result, the public shaming punishment you bring up can make others who see it less likely to commit a similar crime, or the perpetrator re-offend. At the same time they may also cause the perpetrator to think about what they have done and how it affects the victim. But this is really a function of the third GJA.
Reforming the perpetrator is a GJA that hardly considers the victim but focuses on the perpetrator with the aim of bringing them back into society in a better state than when punishment commenced. It is the best reason for punishment from society's point of view but can leave a victim feeling hard done by and ignored. Extreme examples would be Norwegian punishments where a perpetrator is removed to an island so that cannot offend but they are also well treated so that their consideration of the crime is carried out in conditions conducive to well being rather than hard treatment in the hope that they will respond as reformed citizens eager to continue this good life. Some look upon this as being looked after by the state as a reward for carrying out crime...
Some interesting pictures and text here (I would also recommend the Louis Theroux documentaries on prison life in the United States). The final picture is accompanied by some text about prisoners working without pay - I guess that is a reflection of when something is stolen, the victim has worked to buy something but once it is stolen they get no reward.
Sorry I cannot think of anything off the top of my head but talking this from the basic three GJAs (General Justifying Aims) of punishment I think you have two avenues of enquiry. You can discount the retribution style of graphically described earlier in this thread by Lagos, Elder Grizzly and jaykay because Lex Talonis (an eye for an eye) is aimed at giving the victim the satisfaction of knowing that the perpetrator is suffering what they, or someone close to them has had to suffer.
The deterrent GJA offers some chance of a result, the public shaming punishment you bring up can make others who see it less likely to commit a similar crime, or the perpetrator re-offend. At the same time they may also cause the perpetrator to think about what they have done and how it affects the victim. But this is really a function of the third GJA.
Reforming the perpetrator is a GJA that hardly considers the victim but focuses on the perpetrator with the aim of bringing them back into society in a better state than when punishment commenced. It is the best reason for punishment from society's point of view but can leave a victim feeling hard done by and ignored. Extreme examples would be Norwegian punishments where a perpetrator is removed to an island so that cannot offend but they are also well treated so that their consideration of the crime is carried out in conditions conducive to well being rather than hard treatment in the hope that they will respond as reformed citizens eager to continue this good life. Some look upon this as being looked after by the state as a reward for carrying out crime...
Some interesting pictures and text here (I would also recommend the Louis Theroux documentaries on prison life in the United States). The final picture is accompanied by some text about prisoners working without pay - I guess that is a reflection of when something is stolen, the victim has worked to buy something but once it is stolen they get no reward.