By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Precisely this, had we had someone even remotely competent in opposition we very likely wouldn't be suffering this current sh1tshow, and the one before that, and the one before that, and whatever one tomorrow happens to scrape up.
No idea when I began here, was a very long time ago. Previously known as Spirit_of_81. Love cheese, hate the colour of it, this is why it requires some blue in it.
Precisely this, had we had someone even remotely competent in opposition we very likely wouldn't be suffering this current sh1tshow, and the one before that, and the one before that, and whatever one tomorrow happens to scrape up.
The "remotely competent" ones got you to this point 😂
The "remotely competent" ones got you to this point 😂
The problem was Corbyn surrounded himself with yes men and those desperate for power. While he might not be the morally bankrupt scumbag that Boris is, there are some stunning parallels of ineptitude and flaws that ensured such a dismal showing.
The idea he gave away such a majority and wasn't incompetent is baffling, it flies in the face of all evidence and logic.
The problem was Corbyn surrounded himself with yes men and those desperate for power. While he might not be the morally bankrupt scumbag that Boris is, there are some stunning parallels of ineptitude and flaws that ensured such a dismal showing.
The idea he gave away such a majority and wasn't incompetent is baffling, it flies in the face of all evidence and logic.
A right wing, self protecting media and a gullible electorate is the evidence I saw.
A right wing, self protecting media and a gullible electorate is the evidence I saw.
Then you need to look with more than one eye frankly. The media excuse and blaming the electorate is exactly the same as the right wingers do when not getting their own way.
The problem was Corbyn surrounded himself with yes men and those desperate for power. While he might not be the morally bankrupt scumbag that Boris is, there are some stunning parallels of ineptitude and flaws that ensured such a dismal showing.
The idea he gave away such a majority and wasn't incompetent is baffling, it flies in the face of all evidence and logic.
Not really .
In danger of going over this bollox yet again but "Get Brexit Done" was a powerful message from the Tories to an electorate that wanted Brexit just to go away and be done with (of course it was never that simple).
Labours message on Brexit (that Starmer was at least partially responsible for) was a bit confusing and would in the eyes of the electorate prolonged Brexit as an issue. And Brexit was the big issue of that last election.
That with the unparalleled hatchet job done on him, both outside and within the Labour party, he didn't have a chance.
Policy wise, there were and are some great ideas, that where popular with the public (if they didn't know they were Corbyn's Labour ideas) in that last Labour manifesto. A national education service being one of them.
A right wing, self protecting media and a gullible electorate is the evidence I saw.
That’s all largely irrelevant (however correct). Corbyn was repeatedly shown as unelectable - whatever the reasons and however just or unjust, the Labour Party missed a trick by having him as their leader. The wasted years when we were crying out for a credible opposition.
In danger of going over this bollox yet again but "Get Brexit Done" was a powerful message from the Tories to an electorate that wanted Brexit just to go away and be done with (of course it was never that simple).
Labours message on Brexit (that Starmer was at least partially responsible for) was a bit confusing and would in the eyes of the electorate prolonged Brexit as an issue. And Brexit was the big issue of that last election.
That with the unparalleled hatchet job done on him, both outside and within the Labour party, he didn't have a chance.
Policy wise, there were and are some great ideas, that where popular with the public (if they didn't know they were Corbyn's Labour ideas) in that last Labour manifesto. A national education service being one of them.
That of course after being LESS popular than Teresa May.
In danger of going over this bollox yet again but "Get Brexit Done" was a powerful message from the Tories to an electorate that wanted Brexit just to go away and be done with (of course it was never that simple).
Labours message on Brexit (that Starmer was at least partially responsible for) was a bit confusing and would in the eyes of the electorate prolonged Brexit as an issue. And Brexit was the big issue of that last election.
That with the unparalleled hatchet job done on him, both outside and within the Labour party, he didn't have a chance.
Policy wise, there were and are some great ideas, that where popular with the public (if they didn't know they were Corbyn's Labour ideas) in that last Labour manifesto. A national education service being one of them.
That only backs up what I'm saying. He couldn't get his sh1t together at all, having great ideas and not making them electable in the face of messaging is terrible leadership.
Plenty of great leaders were hated in their day, were maligned and the victims of hatchet jobs. Again, he didn't just lose, he gave away the country through in a catalogue of ineptitude without a fight.
We'd be even bigger international parriahs given the way I expected they'd have handled the Ukraine crisis as a start. The loony left are just as dangerous as the rabid right.
Starmer, though unexciting is at least considered, measured and though he might nor be an attack dog at pmqs he is smart enough that he doest need to be, he looks actually statesman like, controlled. Neither Corbyn nor Johnston were even close to that. As for Truss, she is literally a talking head whos mouth runs faster than her brain and whilst her governments ineptitude helps the Starmer and Labour cause no end so to does the presence of a leader that doesn't talk down to his core vote nor sell Ukraine down the swanny for an autographed copy of Das Kapital and and an ornamental hammer and sycle.
Labour is at last seen as sensible, competent and capable. Much of that is built on Starmers projection and though even Corbyn could probably win am election against this cluster#### of a government he would still be in a whole heap of it if he did.
Labour electes sensible candidates, Labour looks capable of winning (and winning big). Not a coincidence that even if aided by rabid bunch running the show on the other side of the house.
Then you need to look with more than one eye frankly. The media excuse and blaming the electorate is exactly the same as the right wingers do when not getting their own way.
Oh please.
You’ve been suckered and you still haven’t worked out how!!?
That of course after being LESS popular than Teresa May.
A political Keane vs Hurst moment.
Why was he less popular than May?
The amount of posters on here who are critical of Corbyn in one thread. Then go on in another about what's wrong with the county and then come up with a Corbyn's labour policy (or similar) to sort it is just silly.
Corbyn for many was unelectable, due to dancing down the cenotaph. Or not bowing low enough. Or maybe not singing god save the queen (when he's a republican atheist and if he had he would have been framed as a hypocrite). Or suddenly becoming antisemitic when he became leader.
Anyone in politics left of centre in this county is as called "unelectable" (despite often being elected)
Yet when people see leaders of similar political spectrums in other countries, the same people that parrot "unelectable" about anyone left of centre say "I wish they were running our county".
We have our own Ardern's in this county. But they are apparently "unelectable".
We'd be even bigger international parriahs given the way I expected they'd have handled the Ukraine crisis as a start. The loony left are just as dangerous as the rabid right.
Starmer, though unexciting is at least considered, measured and though he might nor be an attack dog at pmqs he is smart enough that he doest need to be, he looks actually statesman like, controlled. Neither Corbyn nor Johnston were even close to that. As for Truss, she is literally a talking head whos mouth runs faster than her brain and whilst her governments ineptitude helps the Starmer and Labour cause no end so to does the presence of a leader that doesn't talk down to his core vote nor sell Ukraine down the swanny for an autographed copy of Das Kapital and and an ornamental hammer and sycle.
Labour is at last seen as sensible, competent and capable. Much of that is built on Starmers projection and though even Corbyn could probably win am election against this cluster#### of a government he would still be in a whole heap of it if he did.
Labour electes sensible candidates, Labour looks capable of winning (and winning big). Not a coincidence that even if aided by rabid bunch running the show on the other side of the house.
[Post edited 19 Oct 2022 22:04]
That's not the whole point though.
With Starmer we won't get the overhaul change that is so desperately needed.
I don't know why so many who are fundamentally on the same side keep arguing over the same thing. Policy wise Corbyn's would be in the interest for the many, which is how a country should be run. For its citizens by people who give a sh1t about them.
That he couldn't sell those policies is an unhealthy mix of factors; some of his own making, some not so.
That’s all largely irrelevant (however correct). Corbyn was repeatedly shown as unelectable - whatever the reasons and however just or unjust, the Labour Party missed a trick by having him as their leader. The wasted years when we were crying out for a credible opposition.
He wasn’t shown as unelectable so much as portrayed as unelectable.
The fact that supposedly intelligent people bought that nonsense at face value tells me the UK is screwed. We can’t be that thick and expect a functioning democracy at the same time.
That only backs up what I'm saying. He couldn't get his sh1t together at all, having great ideas and not making them electable in the face of messaging is terrible leadership.
Plenty of great leaders were hated in their day, were maligned and the victims of hatchet jobs. Again, he didn't just lose, he gave away the country through in a catalogue of ineptitude without a fight.
That only backs up what your saying if you're not listening to what I'm saying.
When we had an election over Brexit "get Brexit done" with an "oven ready" deal vs "Lets have another vote on on a deal, we will negotiate that deal in the future but we can't tell you what that will be". Maybe Corbyn's biggest mistake was allowing the labour, stay in the EU part of the party, a say on the Brexit strategy.
You can see why the Tories won. With even the so-called left leaning media doing hatchet jobs on Corbyn almost daily. This was real 1984 stuff going on.
Show me a leader on the planet that has got elected when subject to a hatchet job like that in a modern 21st century country.
It wasn't just from the media, but supposed allies as well. Funds were literally being syphoned away by labour party HQ, from marginals to safe seats in 2017 in an effort to lose an election.
Blair insinuated he would vote tory over a labour party led by Corbyn FFS. Yet Corbyn still grew and led (at the time) the biggest political party in Europe.
The amount of posters on here who are critical of Corbyn in one thread. Then go on in another about what's wrong with the county and then come up with a Corbyn's labour policy (or similar) to sort it is just silly.
Corbyn for many was unelectable, due to dancing down the cenotaph. Or not bowing low enough. Or maybe not singing god save the queen (when he's a republican atheist and if he had he would have been framed as a hypocrite). Or suddenly becoming antisemitic when he became leader.
Anyone in politics left of centre in this county is as called "unelectable" (despite often being elected)
Yet when people see leaders of similar political spectrums in other countries, the same people that parrot "unelectable" about anyone left of centre say "I wish they were running our county".
We have our own Ardern's in this county. But they are apparently "unelectable".
[Post edited 19 Oct 2022 22:25]
Corbyn's views/policies were not the issue (weren't particularly extreme).
However, he did have a lot of political baggage (e.g. the stuff with the PLO and with the IRA), which left him open to attack and thus weakened his position. He was not a particularly good Parliamentary or public performer. He was not decisive or dynamic (if in favour of Brexit, should have come out and said so, or the reverse). Not very good at party handling/discipline. Lacked ministerial experience.
All of those things are damaging for the uphill task of Leader of a Labour Opposition. Especially up against a populist demagogue like Johnson. Even, as it turned out, a shambolic Theresa May campaign.
It wasn't Corbyn's politics which sank him, but his personal vulnerabilities.
The amount of posters on here who are critical of Corbyn in one thread. Then go on in another about what's wrong with the county and then come up with a Corbyn's labour policy (or similar) to sort it is just silly.
Corbyn for many was unelectable, due to dancing down the cenotaph. Or not bowing low enough. Or maybe not singing god save the queen (when he's a republican atheist and if he had he would have been framed as a hypocrite). Or suddenly becoming antisemitic when he became leader.
Anyone in politics left of centre in this county is as called "unelectable" (despite often being elected)
Yet when people see leaders of similar political spectrums in other countries, the same people that parrot "unelectable" about anyone left of centre say "I wish they were running our county".
We have our own Ardern's in this county. But they are apparently "unelectable".
[Post edited 19 Oct 2022 22:25]
It's all about the power of stories isn't it....fairytales in fact.
[Post edited 19 Oct 2022 23:14]
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Corbyn's views/policies were not the issue (weren't particularly extreme).
However, he did have a lot of political baggage (e.g. the stuff with the PLO and with the IRA), which left him open to attack and thus weakened his position. He was not a particularly good Parliamentary or public performer. He was not decisive or dynamic (if in favour of Brexit, should have come out and said so, or the reverse). Not very good at party handling/discipline. Lacked ministerial experience.
All of those things are damaging for the uphill task of Leader of a Labour Opposition. Especially up against a populist demagogue like Johnson. Even, as it turned out, a shambolic Theresa May campaign.
It wasn't Corbyn's politics which sank him, but his personal vulnerabilities.
I forgot about terrorist sympathiser! Peacemaker isn't quite a great headline is it.
You maybe correct regarding his personal vulnerabilities. But with the 1984 type assassination of character, from all directions, I doubt anyone would have passed that test.
What is telling is that the current labour party is doing their best to make sure that no one left of centre will become leader again, weather they have personal vulnerabilities or not.
Corbyn's views/policies were not the issue (weren't particularly extreme).
However, he did have a lot of political baggage (e.g. the stuff with the PLO and with the IRA), which left him open to attack and thus weakened his position. He was not a particularly good Parliamentary or public performer. He was not decisive or dynamic (if in favour of Brexit, should have come out and said so, or the reverse). Not very good at party handling/discipline. Lacked ministerial experience.
All of those things are damaging for the uphill task of Leader of a Labour Opposition. Especially up against a populist demagogue like Johnson. Even, as it turned out, a shambolic Theresa May campaign.
It wasn't Corbyn's politics which sank him, but his personal vulnerabilities.
I think this gets close to my view.
Corbyn's whole career was as the "outsider". I believe that a healthy democracy needs such characters. Denis Skinner was another. I can't immediately think of a similar character on the right, probably due to sympathy bias.
On a personal level, I suspect he never viewed himself as a "leader". It fell into his lap and I suspect he didn't enjoy it.
I think foreign policy would have destroyed him. In 1997 Robin Cook said Labour would adopt an "ethical" foreign policy, meaning e.g. (IMO) standing up to Saudi Arabia on human rights issues and taking a stance distant from the USA at times.
Cook's stance was rapidly reversed from on taking office. I suspect that Blair's mob were informed that the UK (and the west, generally) was completely economically and security-wise dependent on the USA model. Resisting or arguing against it would have caused a Truss Tory party-like collapse in the economy.
Cook (honorably) eventually resigned over Iraq - Corbyn's ideology could not have allowed him to compromise over the UK's messy historical dubious compromises and it would have led to an economic crash of inconceivable consequences (hi, BDS!).
I think Corbyn's domestic policies are/ were the blueprint for the UK's future. Give the City due notice and the markets will cope with it (hi BDS, again!).
To be the UK PM you have to be prepared to be quite dirty to cope with Britain's past. I don't think Corbyn had/ has it in him to be that dirty.
Corbyn's views/policies were not the issue (weren't particularly extreme).
However, he did have a lot of political baggage (e.g. the stuff with the PLO and with the IRA), which left him open to attack and thus weakened his position. He was not a particularly good Parliamentary or public performer. He was not decisive or dynamic (if in favour of Brexit, should have come out and said so, or the reverse). Not very good at party handling/discipline. Lacked ministerial experience.
All of those things are damaging for the uphill task of Leader of a Labour Opposition. Especially up against a populist demagogue like Johnson. Even, as it turned out, a shambolic Theresa May campaign.
It wasn't Corbyn's politics which sank him, but his personal vulnerabilities.
And yet despite actual and much deeper “personal vulnerabilities” Boris Johnson led the Tories to government in 2019.
Unfortunately, the narrative and accusations spun around Corbyn was, and is, ridiculous. Not to mention the sabotage and briefing against him from the Labour right that looked to undermine at every opportunity.
Why did this campaign go into overdrive and overexaggeration with so many wild accusations if Corbyn had real vulnerabilities? It was because his politics absolutely were the issue and needed to be dismissed/marginalised at all costs.
Corbyn's views/policies were not the issue (weren't particularly extreme).
However, he did have a lot of political baggage (e.g. the stuff with the PLO and with the IRA), which left him open to attack and thus weakened his position. He was not a particularly good Parliamentary or public performer. He was not decisive or dynamic (if in favour of Brexit, should have come out and said so, or the reverse). Not very good at party handling/discipline. Lacked ministerial experience.
All of those things are damaging for the uphill task of Leader of a Labour Opposition. Especially up against a populist demagogue like Johnson. Even, as it turned out, a shambolic Theresa May campaign.
It wasn't Corbyn's politics which sank him, but his personal vulnerabilities.
At it's most simplest - you can not expect to be voted Prime Minister simply on your policies and ideals - the vast majority of the population want to see someone with charisma who projects as statesmanlike.
Corbyn - like Foot and Kinnock before him and like Saunders in the US - will never be seen as 'electable' to large swathes of the population.
Now for some of us - me included - you look at someone like Johnson and don't see a statesman you see a bumbling buffoon; but for reasons I can't quite work out he is seen by many as a lovable buffoon...and lovable buffoon trumps left wing agitator.
Here in Australia, we are six months into a new left of centre government. The country was crying out for the policies that they are introducing for years (especially on climate change); but it took the right wing Liberal Party and their w***er of a PM to effectively shot themselves in the foot in order for the left wing Labor Party to win power. Why? Because the previous Labor leader (Bill Shorten) was an ex Union Leader far more effective rabble rousing a picket line and the current leader (Anthony Albanese) has the charisma of a wet lettuce. Thankfully though they are now in power and it's like this calm has finally settled on the political space for now - because whilst he might have no charisma he's rolling out a moderate left agenda that the vast majority of the population see as fair and reasonable.
Whilst I'm not a huge fan of Starmer - I suspect he will have the same impact on the UK when he is elected in 3/12/24 months time (delete as applicable).
[There is also a broader point that extreme left wing views on face value scare the living hell out of the establishment; whereas extreme right wing views sadly delight many in positions of power]
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
Mugs. 
