| A coronation then... 09:36 - Oct 24 with 2045 views | bluelagos |
So I presume all those affronted at the lack of a mandate for Sunak, not even supported so it seems by his own party members, certainly not by the electorate, just supported by a couple of hundred Tory MPs....I presume everyone who recognises the lack of this public mandate will be similarly affronted by the coronation of a monarch on the basis of birth rather than public vote?
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| A coronation then... on 10:11 - Oct 24 with 1960 views | GlasgowBlue |
Did you say the same about Gordon Brown, John Major, Jim Callaghan et etc.
Or Nicola Sturgeon? Or Mark Drakeford? |  |
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| A coronation then... on 10:12 - Oct 24 with 1966 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
I think it’s shocking. For years we’ve had this secretive biggoted group that spend their entire time justifying their own existence, break whatever rules they want, manipulate the press and avoid taxation.
Apologies I’ve forgotten whether I was talking about the Royals or the Tories. |  | | |
| A coronation then... on 10:20 - Oct 24 with 1914 views | XYZ |
| A coronation then... on 10:11 - Oct 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Did you say the same about Gordon Brown, John Major, Jim Callaghan et etc.
Or Nicola Sturgeon? Or Mark Drakeford? |
None of them came in 6 weeks after their predecessor.
These are somewhat unchartered waters constitutionally. | | | |
| A coronation then... on 10:21 - Oct 24 with 1921 views | bluelagos |
| A coronation then... on 10:11 - Oct 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Did you say the same about Gordon Brown, John Major, Jim Callaghan et etc.
Or Nicola Sturgeon? Or Mark Drakeford? |
Callaghan was a little before my time - but yep, all of those you quoted lacked a public mandate when they first took office, clearly. | |
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| A coronation then... on 10:41 - Oct 24 with 1837 views | Churchman |
| A coronation then... on 10:21 - Oct 24 by bluelagos |
Callaghan was a little before my time - but yep, all of those you quoted lacked a public mandate when they first took office, clearly. |
Not before mine. That unpleasant, useless man (he was rude to my mate on the phone years ago) scuttled in when Wilson had enough. He had no mandate, just like the others. Mind you, neither, did LBJ when he replaced Kennedy or Ford when Nixon was booted out.
But of course there should be a GE now after all that’s happened. |  | | |
| A coronation then... on 10:42 - Oct 24 with 1828 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A coronation then... on 10:21 - Oct 24 by bluelagos |
Callaghan was a little before my time - but yep, all of those you quoted lacked a public mandate when they first took office, clearly. |
Not according to the rules.
As Facters used to remind us in the days of Gordon Brown; we don’t elect Prime Ministers. We elect constituency members of Parliament. | |
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| A coronation then... on 10:57 - Oct 24 with 1791 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A coronation then... on 10:41 - Oct 24 by Churchman |
Not before mine. That unpleasant, useless man (he was rude to my mate on the phone years ago) scuttled in when Wilson had enough. He had no mandate, just like the others. Mind you, neither, did LBJ when he replaced Kennedy or Ford when Nixon was booted out.
But of course there should be a GE now after all that’s happened. |
There should be but there doesn’t have to be one. Unless Parliament votes to changes the rules the there is no point moaning about it.
My view has always been that if somebody takes over mid term then the rules should state that they must call a General Election within 12 months.
If we had an election now then we’d be stuck with that bloody useless Truss for another six to eight weeks and the markets would completely collapse. | |
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| A coronation then... on 11:01 - Oct 24 with 1788 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
If Rishi has any sense he call GE, talk about how he recognises what a huge challenge it will be for his party, affirm that win or lose he will remain Tory leader and look to reestablish faith in politics and in his party from wherever he then sits.
They will lose but he will be in a position to reshape his party into something less sinister than what it is fast becoming.
Try and ride out and he has no chance. |  |
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| A coronation then... on 11:04 - Oct 24 with 1774 views | BlueBadger |
| A coronation then... on 11:01 - Oct 24 by BlueandTruesince82 |
If Rishi has any sense he call GE, talk about how he recognises what a huge challenge it will be for his party, affirm that win or lose he will remain Tory leader and look to reestablish faith in politics and in his party from wherever he then sits.
They will lose but he will be in a position to reshape his party into something less sinister than what it is fast becoming.
Try and ride out and he has no chance. |
He won't. He's spent the last three years propping up the failed Johnson administration. He's the Richard Hammond of politics. Be interesting to see what he does now he hasn't got a loudmouth to hide behind, doing 'look at him, what is like' smirk whilst Clarkson makes another racist joke. [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 11:04]
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| A coronation then... on 11:04 - Oct 24 with 1756 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A coronation then... on 11:01 - Oct 24 by BlueandTruesince82 |
If Rishi has any sense he call GE, talk about how he recognises what a huge challenge it will be for his party, affirm that win or lose he will remain Tory leader and look to reestablish faith in politics and in his party from wherever he then sits.
They will lose but he will be in a position to reshape his party into something less sinister than what it is fast becoming.
Try and ride out and he has no chance. |
He wouldn’t be in a position to re shape the party. He’d be replaced fir being stupid enough to call an ejection that would cost most of his colleagues their jobs. | |
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| A coronation then... on 11:36 - Oct 24 with 1685 views | Pinewoodblue |
| A coronation then... on 11:04 - Oct 24 by GlasgowBlue |
He wouldn’t be in a position to re shape the party. He’d be replaced fir being stupid enough to call an ejection that would cost most of his colleagues their jobs. |
At least you didn’t say erection.
This won’t makes sense after GB edits his post. |  |
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| A coronation then... on 12:09 - Oct 24 with 1646 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| A coronation then... on 10:11 - Oct 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Did you say the same about Gordon Brown, John Major, Jim Callaghan et etc.
Or Nicola Sturgeon? Or Mark Drakeford? |
Just for the record, nail your colours to the mast, how many times do you think it would be acceptable for a Party to dump a PM and appoint another (and for those PMs to follow radically different policies from the General Election Manifesto) without referring it back to the electorate?
Weird that your list should include three Labour politicians and only one Tory, when Cameron, May, Johnson and now Truss all resigned while in office as PM.
But if we are going to compare:
A broad brush summary would be that Tory MPs denefenestrate PMs when their seat is at stake, or because of deep divisions on policy which make the Parliamentary Party ungovernable.
Whereas the Blair to Brown transition was already known about and expected by Labour MPs, Party members, political journalists and the general public YEARS in advance, and was smooth, orderly and didn't represent the wholesale dumping of Manifesto commitments.
Wilson to Callaghan wasn't about party division, either. Just someone deciding they had done enough.
The problem is that we don't have a written Constitution and this isn't spelled out. Personally I would favour a requirement to go to the country within a set period, say six months, of a Prime Minister resigning whilst in office.
It's also laughable that either party can have a big Parliamentary majority on the back of 42 or 43% of the vote, and that has enabled and fed the Tory infighting of the past 10 or so years. | | | |
| A coronation then... on 12:40 - Oct 24 with 1576 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| A coronation then... on 12:09 - Oct 24 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Just for the record, nail your colours to the mast, how many times do you think it would be acceptable for a Party to dump a PM and appoint another (and for those PMs to follow radically different policies from the General Election Manifesto) without referring it back to the electorate?
Weird that your list should include three Labour politicians and only one Tory, when Cameron, May, Johnson and now Truss all resigned while in office as PM.
But if we are going to compare:
A broad brush summary would be that Tory MPs denefenestrate PMs when their seat is at stake, or because of deep divisions on policy which make the Parliamentary Party ungovernable.
Whereas the Blair to Brown transition was already known about and expected by Labour MPs, Party members, political journalists and the general public YEARS in advance, and was smooth, orderly and didn't represent the wholesale dumping of Manifesto commitments.
Wilson to Callaghan wasn't about party division, either. Just someone deciding they had done enough.
The problem is that we don't have a written Constitution and this isn't spelled out. Personally I would favour a requirement to go to the country within a set period, say six months, of a Prime Minister resigning whilst in office.
It's also laughable that either party can have a big Parliamentary majority on the back of 42 or 43% of the vote, and that has enabled and fed the Tory infighting of the past 10 or so years. |
You do nail your colours to the mast later in the thread, and say compulsory GE within 12 months. I started the reply before that post.
Still, I think you are very partial in your example selecting, and we have had a very particular Tory problem in recent years which is all about ditching a leader when the opinion poll wind changes (dating back to the hit on Thatcher) or when factionalism leaves them without authority (May and arguably Cameron).
I feel that in 50 years time political and economic historians may conclude that the ERG/Hard Brexit wing of the Tories did far more damage to both their party and the country than the Hard Left did to Labour and the UK in the 70s. | | | |
| A coronation then... on 12:45 - Oct 24 with 1550 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A coronation then... on 10:11 - Oct 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Did you say the same about Gordon Brown, John Major, Jim Callaghan et etc.
Or Nicola Sturgeon? Or Mark Drakeford? |
Those were all rejected as leader by their own party 6 weeks before being chosen by 100 of their own MPs? |  |
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| A coronation then... on 12:51 - Oct 24 with 1537 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A coronation then... on 12:45 - Oct 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Those were all rejected as leader by their own party 6 weeks before being chosen by 100 of their own MPs? |
We have gone from a PM/party elected with a landslide by 43.6% of those who voted, to a PM with radically different policies elected by 81,326 party members, to one elected by 100+ MPs. It is democracy but it is hardly any more democratic than many countries where we would be highly critical of it.
You also have to ask: did all of the other leaders quoted bring a radical new agenda or implement those on which their party had been elected initially? | |
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| A coronation then... on 12:57 - Oct 24 with 1511 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A coronation then... on 11:01 - Oct 24 by BlueandTruesince82 |
If Rishi has any sense he call GE, talk about how he recognises what a huge challenge it will be for his party, affirm that win or lose he will remain Tory leader and look to reestablish faith in politics and in his party from wherever he then sits.
They will lose but he will be in a position to reshape his party into something less sinister than what it is fast becoming.
Try and ride out and he has no chance. |
If Rishi has any sense (and truly cares about what is good for the country) he will have a vote on applying to rejoin the EU. If his own MPs voted against it in enough numbers, it would force a General Election. He won't do it, I am sure, but it would be the best thing he could possibly do. | |
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| A coronation then... on 13:23 - Oct 24 with 1454 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| A coronation then... on 12:57 - Oct 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
If Rishi has any sense (and truly cares about what is good for the country) he will have a vote on applying to rejoin the EU. If his own MPs voted against it in enough numbers, it would force a General Election. He won't do it, I am sure, but it would be the best thing he could possibly do. |
I would love us to rejoin the EU. I am a passionate Internationalist.
But that really wouldn't be good for the country right now!
Towards the end of the next Parliament either Labour or the Conservatives might be able to reconsider our relationship with Europe, but there are much bigger issues at stake right now.
The Lib Dems may significantly out perform the current poll predictions in terms of seats at the next General Election by pushing a Rejoin message in areas which voted against Brexit and are currently Tory held, though. | | | |
| A coronation then... on 13:27 - Oct 24 with 1427 views | cbower |
| A coronation then... on 10:41 - Oct 24 by Churchman |
Not before mine. That unpleasant, useless man (he was rude to my mate on the phone years ago) scuttled in when Wilson had enough. He had no mandate, just like the others. Mind you, neither, did LBJ when he replaced Kennedy or Ford when Nixon was booted out.
But of course there should be a GE now after all that’s happened. |
Yes they did. They were the "running mate" of JFK and Nixon respectively and as such, the individual with the constitutional mandate to take over if the President is ( for whatever reason) unable to go on. |  |
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| A coronation then... on 13:33 - Oct 24 with 1411 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A coronation then... on 13:23 - Oct 24 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I would love us to rejoin the EU. I am a passionate Internationalist.
But that really wouldn't be good for the country right now!
Towards the end of the next Parliament either Labour or the Conservatives might be able to reconsider our relationship with Europe, but there are much bigger issues at stake right now.
The Lib Dems may significantly out perform the current poll predictions in terms of seats at the next General Election by pushing a Rejoin message in areas which voted against Brexit and are currently Tory held, though. |
On what basis would applying to rejoin the largest trading bloc that we could belong to and that leaving has cost us massively not be good for the country?
Of course, there would be those who would rail against it but leading the country is about doing what is right for the country rather than trying to gain their party a political advantage. | |
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| A coronation then... on 13:42 - Oct 24 with 1380 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A coronation then... on 12:09 - Oct 24 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Just for the record, nail your colours to the mast, how many times do you think it would be acceptable for a Party to dump a PM and appoint another (and for those PMs to follow radically different policies from the General Election Manifesto) without referring it back to the electorate?
Weird that your list should include three Labour politicians and only one Tory, when Cameron, May, Johnson and now Truss all resigned while in office as PM.
But if we are going to compare:
A broad brush summary would be that Tory MPs denefenestrate PMs when their seat is at stake, or because of deep divisions on policy which make the Parliamentary Party ungovernable.
Whereas the Blair to Brown transition was already known about and expected by Labour MPs, Party members, political journalists and the general public YEARS in advance, and was smooth, orderly and didn't represent the wholesale dumping of Manifesto commitments.
Wilson to Callaghan wasn't about party division, either. Just someone deciding they had done enough.
The problem is that we don't have a written Constitution and this isn't spelled out. Personally I would favour a requirement to go to the country within a set period, say six months, of a Prime Minister resigning whilst in office.
It's also laughable that either party can have a big Parliamentary majority on the back of 42 or 43% of the vote, and that has enabled and fed the Tory infighting of the past 10 or so years. |
I've already nailed my colours to the mast. My view has always been that if somebody takes over mid term then the rules should state that they must call a General Election within 12 months.
However, those aren't the parliamentary rules that we live under. If anyone feels o strongly about this issue then perhaps lobby Keir Starmer to implement changes, as he is most likely going to be the next Prime Minister.
I also think that full Proportional Representation would be a much fairer system and give far better representation for all the people. But neither of the two main parties are ever going to change a system that delivers one or the other a healthing majority with less than 5) of the vote. | |
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| A coronation then... on 13:47 - Oct 24 with 1358 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A coronation then... on 13:42 - Oct 24 by GlasgowBlue |
I've already nailed my colours to the mast. My view has always been that if somebody takes over mid term then the rules should state that they must call a General Election within 12 months.
However, those aren't the parliamentary rules that we live under. If anyone feels o strongly about this issue then perhaps lobby Keir Starmer to implement changes, as he is most likely going to be the next Prime Minister.
I also think that full Proportional Representation would be a much fairer system and give far better representation for all the people. But neither of the two main parties are ever going to change a system that delivers one or the other a healthing majority with less than 5) of the vote. |
Point of order, I think Sunak is most likely to be the next PM. | |
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| A coronation then... on 13:53 - Oct 24 with 1318 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A coronation then... on 13:47 - Oct 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Point of order, I think Sunak is most likely to be the next PM. |
After Sunak. Although maybe it will be Mordaunt at Christmas? | |
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| A coronation then... on 14:00 - Oct 24 with 1298 views | Crawfordsboot |
I’m at one with what I understand your sentiments to be re Royalty but the question of a PMs mandate is an interesting one.
Members of the public voted for their constituency MPs and/or a political party. The leader of the party becomes PM. Conservatives got in more because Corbin was anathema to all except left wing voters. The Conservatives and therefore Johnson walked it. The mandate was for the Conservative party and they can elect whoever they want as their leader. Johnson supporters can’t argue the mandate was his just as opposition parties can’t argue that the Conservatives don’t have a mandate. It’s frustrating since I think they are a busted flush and have run out of ideas and talent. The sooner labour get into power the better but it may be a while before we get an election. |  | | |
| A coronation then... on 15:50 - Oct 24 with 1194 views | DJR |
| A coronation then... on 10:41 - Oct 24 by Churchman |
Not before mine. That unpleasant, useless man (he was rude to my mate on the phone years ago) scuttled in when Wilson had enough. He had no mandate, just like the others. Mind you, neither, did LBJ when he replaced Kennedy or Ford when Nixon was booted out.
But of course there should be a GE now after all that’s happened. |
It's strange how opinions vary. I started getting interested in politics in 1974 when I was 14, and Callaghan is my favourite politician of all time. He was only educated in a secondary modern, but to my mind he was a very canny and intelligent person, and much more on the ball than all the Oxford PPE prime ministers who have got us to the mess we are in now. I read an article a couple of weeks ago which suggested that Callaghan and Thatcher were titans in terms of answering well difficult journalists' questions, in contrast to most current politicians who just lie or avoid the question.
Why was you mate on the phone Callaghan? [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 15:54]
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