| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution 09:59 - Jun 3 with 4461 views | Darth_Koont |
“We need political leadership that recognises the scale of the problems we are faced with, and the courage to offer a transformative vision and solutions to match
Sadly, @UKLabour seem to be offering a managerial upgrade at best
That is why I’m proud to join @TheGreenParty”
He’s spot on in his thread and article.
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:25 - Jun 3 with 3235 views | nodge_blue |
You did get me to just look at some of the Green Party policy statements.
In the section on disability....
"The bio-psychosocial model which was based on the recognition of the mindbody continuum has gained credence and has been interpreted in some policy areas in ways that are unhelpful to disabled people"
There's a lot of policy statements that I think are ok to be fair. Im just not very warm to the greens in Norwich for selfish reasons that they want to stop the completion of the bypass which is 90% done but isn't done for my part of the city which consequently is a rat run.
I think we need to give Starmer a chance before we write him off. |  |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:34 - Jun 3 with 3212 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:25 - Jun 3 by nodge_blue |
You did get me to just look at some of the Green Party policy statements.
In the section on disability....
"The bio-psychosocial model which was based on the recognition of the mindbody continuum has gained credence and has been interpreted in some policy areas in ways that are unhelpful to disabled people"
There's a lot of policy statements that I think are ok to be fair. Im just not very warm to the greens in Norwich for selfish reasons that they want to stop the completion of the bypass which is 90% done but isn't done for my part of the city which consequently is a rat run.
I think we need to give Starmer a chance before we write him off. |
You're going to be disappointed. |  |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:36 - Jun 3 with 3208 views | Blueschev |
I'd like to see what would happen were Corbyn to join the Greens, it would certainly mix things up. |  | | |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:41 - Jun 3 with 3198 views | Guthrum |
It comes back to the old problem that, under the present electoral system, unless you can persuade voters trained for decades in consumerist individualism to vote for progressive policies, all the good intentions will count for nothing. There will be zero change. Currently in the UK there is the brutal choice between being seriously reforming and unelectable or moderate and standing a chance.
The radicals will just move to the more comfortable - but completely ineffectual - fringes. Whereas they might be better staying in the mainstream and trying to steer it in a more reformist direction should power be gained.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, change in attitudes was effected through the twin strands of electoral reform and education. The latter is harder nowadays in an environment of a prescribed curriculum and the exam passing/school league table struggle. There is less opportunity to present a progressive agenda in the classroom. Doubly so with a constant distractionary media diet. As for electoral reform, the major parties are too scared of it leading to their breaking up and/or loss of absolute power in office.
Which is a long-winded way of saying we are pretty stuffed and the best hope is for incremental change over a long time period. |  |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:07 - Jun 3 with 3164 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:41 - Jun 3 by Guthrum |
It comes back to the old problem that, under the present electoral system, unless you can persuade voters trained for decades in consumerist individualism to vote for progressive policies, all the good intentions will count for nothing. There will be zero change. Currently in the UK there is the brutal choice between being seriously reforming and unelectable or moderate and standing a chance.
The radicals will just move to the more comfortable - but completely ineffectual - fringes. Whereas they might be better staying in the mainstream and trying to steer it in a more reformist direction should power be gained.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, change in attitudes was effected through the twin strands of electoral reform and education. The latter is harder nowadays in an environment of a prescribed curriculum and the exam passing/school league table struggle. There is less opportunity to present a progressive agenda in the classroom. Doubly so with a constant distractionary media diet. As for electoral reform, the major parties are too scared of it leading to their breaking up and/or loss of absolute power in office.
Which is a long-winded way of saying we are pretty stuffed and the best hope is for incremental change over a long time period. |
In the face of the evidence, Labour and the Tories are the radicals nowadays.
Trying to shore up the failed centre-right “consensus” that has helped divide the economy, society and the country looks increasingly loony for everyone else apart from the politicians, donors, media and lobbyists who benefit from it personally and professionally.
The absence of honest, objective debate, recognition of the underlying issues and resulting alternatives is fully in their interests. And has characterised the UK’s decline over the last couple of decades.
It’s not incremental change but managed decline to protect self-interest. | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:14 - Jun 3 with 3137 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:25 - Jun 3 by nodge_blue |
You did get me to just look at some of the Green Party policy statements.
In the section on disability....
"The bio-psychosocial model which was based on the recognition of the mindbody continuum has gained credence and has been interpreted in some policy areas in ways that are unhelpful to disabled people"
There's a lot of policy statements that I think are ok to be fair. Im just not very warm to the greens in Norwich for selfish reasons that they want to stop the completion of the bypass which is 90% done but isn't done for my part of the city which consequently is a rat run.
I think we need to give Starmer a chance before we write him off. |
People were saying the same about Johnson, another empty liar driven by personal ambition rather than values.
I’m really not sure we can afford another – especially one who is surrounded by Labour right-wingers who are dangerously authoritarian and undemocratic in their pursuit of power. | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:24 - Jun 3 with 3099 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:14 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
People were saying the same about Johnson, another empty liar driven by personal ambition rather than values.
I’m really not sure we can afford another – especially one who is surrounded by Labour right-wingers who are dangerously authoritarian and undemocratic in their pursuit of power. |
Your answer is to let the Tories carry on?
Because that's all that would happen if people were to follow your daily digs at Starmer.
The utopia you want doesn't and won't exist, so the best we can do is vote for the least worst. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:30 - Jun 3 with 3042 views | Pendejo |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:24 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Your answer is to let the Tories carry on?
Because that's all that would happen if people were to follow your daily digs at Starmer.
The utopia you want doesn't and won't exist, so the best we can do is vote for the least worst. |
Evolution (hopefully) v revolution (which is actually probably necessary!) |  |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:41 - Jun 3 with 3025 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:24 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Your answer is to let the Tories carry on?
Because that's all that would happen if people were to follow your daily digs at Starmer.
The utopia you want doesn't and won't exist, so the best we can do is vote for the least worst. |
Or we could demand an awful lot better. We’ve sleepwalked to where we are now because of the global and national challenges we’ve failed to address over decades and have brought us austerity, Brexit, wage stagnation, low productivity, growing inequality and poverty, fecked-up housing, low investment, poor public services, a traumatised NHS, personal debt and enormous government debt that hasn’t shifted the metrics but now means we can’t spend what we need. And so on and so on, not least that people already on the margins have less and less protection and security.
Let’s make that choice between “Sh1t” and “Sh1tter” when there is literally no other choice in a GE. But let’s not pretend that the choice is fit for purpose, democratically or socio-economically. | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:02 - Jun 3 with 2960 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:36 - Jun 3 by Blueschev |
I'd like to see what would happen were Corbyn to join the Greens, it would certainly mix things up. |
We could all look forward to the EHRC investigation into the Green Party in 2027 I suppose. |  |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:07 - Jun 3 with 2953 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:41 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
Or we could demand an awful lot better. We’ve sleepwalked to where we are now because of the global and national challenges we’ve failed to address over decades and have brought us austerity, Brexit, wage stagnation, low productivity, growing inequality and poverty, fecked-up housing, low investment, poor public services, a traumatised NHS, personal debt and enormous government debt that hasn’t shifted the metrics but now means we can’t spend what we need. And so on and so on, not least that people already on the margins have less and less protection and security.
Let’s make that choice between “Sh1t” and “Sh1tter” when there is literally no other choice in a GE. But let’s not pretend that the choice is fit for purpose, democratically or socio-economically. |
Don't disagree with anything you've said there. Just HOW do we demand better? What do your regular posts attacking Starmer actually achieve? They're not going to get rid of him any time soon, so all it can possibly do (if it's doing anything) is push a few undecideds somewhere else. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:25 - Jun 3 with 2882 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:07 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Don't disagree with anything you've said there. Just HOW do we demand better? What do your regular posts attacking Starmer actually achieve? They're not going to get rid of him any time soon, so all it can possibly do (if it's doing anything) is push a few undecideds somewhere else. |
also how do you join cause with the majority of the electorate who don't recognise dk's description of the uk. bits of it, yes - the extreme dystopian whole, no. a majority have a comfortable life in the uk which remains a rich nation and a very good place to be middle class. those voters reasonably want security for what they have as well as change to make the place fairer and more efficient. if you can't form a political coalition with people who are comfortable and haven't swallowed the dystopian guardian world view whole you will never elect a government or change a single thing. i am amazed that people like dk have no grasp of how you manufacture change in a prosperous democracy. it's almost as if grand standing matters more than producing any change. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:29 - Jun 3 with 2862 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:02 - Jun 3 by GlasgowBlue |
We could all look forward to the EHRC investigation into the Green Party in 2027 I suppose. |
Pfft.
Well, you and your smeary right-wing ilk will certainly be all over that. 😀 | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:31 - Jun 3 with 2859 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
It would be much better for the country if they were to lose the election, but “win the argument”.
Incredibly, not the words of a toddler. |  | | |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:34 - Jun 3 with 2833 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:31 - Jun 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
It would be much better for the country if they were to lose the election, but “win the argument”.
Incredibly, not the words of a toddler. |
No, they're words made up by you just now. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:42 - Jun 3 with 2796 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:29 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
Pfft.
Well, you and your smeary right-wing ilk will certainly be all over that. 😀 |
You’re basically Roger Waters. But without the wonderful music back catalogue. | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:47 - Jun 3 with 2771 views | Guthrum |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 11:07 - Jun 3 by Darth_Koont |
In the face of the evidence, Labour and the Tories are the radicals nowadays.
Trying to shore up the failed centre-right “consensus” that has helped divide the economy, society and the country looks increasingly loony for everyone else apart from the politicians, donors, media and lobbyists who benefit from it personally and professionally.
The absence of honest, objective debate, recognition of the underlying issues and resulting alternatives is fully in their interests. And has characterised the UK’s decline over the last couple of decades.
It’s not incremental change but managed decline to protect self-interest. |
They are radical reactionaries, trying to maintain the cash-cow of the 1980s to 2000s.
However, that doesn't get round the difficulty of persuading people to leap back from a situation they have been walked into and which has made the lives of the majority materially more comfortable* than 40 years ago.
* More stuff, more holidays, more credit to buy things. In exchange for which more inequality, more job insecurity, more damage to the environment. | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 13:16 - Jun 3 with 2680 views | NthQldITFC |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:41 - Jun 3 by Guthrum |
It comes back to the old problem that, under the present electoral system, unless you can persuade voters trained for decades in consumerist individualism to vote for progressive policies, all the good intentions will count for nothing. There will be zero change. Currently in the UK there is the brutal choice between being seriously reforming and unelectable or moderate and standing a chance.
The radicals will just move to the more comfortable - but completely ineffectual - fringes. Whereas they might be better staying in the mainstream and trying to steer it in a more reformist direction should power be gained.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, change in attitudes was effected through the twin strands of electoral reform and education. The latter is harder nowadays in an environment of a prescribed curriculum and the exam passing/school league table struggle. There is less opportunity to present a progressive agenda in the classroom. Doubly so with a constant distractionary media diet. As for electoral reform, the major parties are too scared of it leading to their breaking up and/or loss of absolute power in office.
Which is a long-winded way of saying we are pretty stuffed and the best hope is for incremental change over a long time period. |
I agree with everything you say, except I don't feel that there is time for incremental change, when so many environmental and societal problems, nay catastrophes feel like they are right on top of us.
It's radical change (economic, political and personal) or die as far as I can see, and the only choice is how voluntarily we do it, and consequently how violent it is. Thinking in terms of the current political arena and social balance seems blinkered to me - we have seen approaching zero meaningful response to the existential threat of climate change over the last thirty years.
We need to think of ourselves at war to change our mindset, and start pulling together and getting by frugally - consumerism and insular individualism is doomed as we continue to expand massively above the carrying capability of planet Earth (both in numbers and mean footprint). |  |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 13:24 - Jun 3 with 2648 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:42 - Jun 3 by GlasgowBlue |
You’re basically Roger Waters. But without the wonderful music back catalogue. |
QED | |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 13:30 - Jun 3 with 2614 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:34 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No, they're words made up by you just now. |
“Labour figures have reacted with dismay to Jeremy Corbyn’s insistence that Labour “won the argument” despite shedding 59 seats at the general election ” | | | |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 13:42 - Jun 3 with 2591 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 13:30 - Jun 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“Labour figures have reacted with dismay to Jeremy Corbyn’s insistence that Labour “won the argument” despite shedding 59 seats at the general election ” |
That's not the same as "It would be much better for the country if they were to lose the election, but win the argument." | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 14:07 - Jun 3 with 2555 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:41 - Jun 3 by Guthrum |
It comes back to the old problem that, under the present electoral system, unless you can persuade voters trained for decades in consumerist individualism to vote for progressive policies, all the good intentions will count for nothing. There will be zero change. Currently in the UK there is the brutal choice between being seriously reforming and unelectable or moderate and standing a chance.
The radicals will just move to the more comfortable - but completely ineffectual - fringes. Whereas they might be better staying in the mainstream and trying to steer it in a more reformist direction should power be gained.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, change in attitudes was effected through the twin strands of electoral reform and education. The latter is harder nowadays in an environment of a prescribed curriculum and the exam passing/school league table struggle. There is less opportunity to present a progressive agenda in the classroom. Doubly so with a constant distractionary media diet. As for electoral reform, the major parties are too scared of it leading to their breaking up and/or loss of absolute power in office.
Which is a long-winded way of saying we are pretty stuffed and the best hope is for incremental change over a long time period. |
Not sure I fully agree. Many of Corbyn's policies were very popular (I've mentioned before that members of my family voted Labour for the first time in 2017 because they wanted stuff like rail renationalisation). IMO the main issue was his personal unpopularity and an almost entirely hostile media (even the BBC). Unfortunately the right of the party have used his personal unpopularity to also deride his policy programme.
Had we had a Labour leader who was seen as a bit more 'patriotic' and had less cranky foreign policy views, I think they'd have done very well. I still think it's a shame Clive Lewis didn't get the opportunity to run for the leadership as I think he would have fitted that mould (and also having a leader from outside the big cities would have been a good move). |  | | |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 20:21 - Jun 3 with 2328 views | DJR |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 12:07 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Don't disagree with anything you've said there. Just HOW do we demand better? What do your regular posts attacking Starmer actually achieve? They're not going to get rid of him any time soon, so all it can possibly do (if it's doing anything) is push a few undecideds somewhere else. |
I don't think we can blame Darth for the fact that according to the latest polling 45% of people find Starmer untrustworthy and only 27% trustworthy, and this before he has even become PM.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-keir-starmer-trustworthy
This suggests that the strategy Starmer is pursuing is not even succeeding in his own terms.
It is also rather worrying because at one time Starmer's lawyerly integrity (particularly in contrast to Johnson) would have been an asset. [Post edited 3 Jun 2023 20:28]
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| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 23:10 - Jun 3 with 2190 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 20:21 - Jun 3 by DJR |
I don't think we can blame Darth for the fact that according to the latest polling 45% of people find Starmer untrustworthy and only 27% trustworthy, and this before he has even become PM.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-keir-starmer-trustworthy
This suggests that the strategy Starmer is pursuing is not even succeeding in his own terms.
It is also rather worrying because at one time Starmer's lawyerly integrity (particularly in contrast to Johnson) would have been an asset. [Post edited 3 Jun 2023 20:28]
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It does appear that Starmer looks at the polls, see Labours continuing lead and thinks...... ''I better fck that up"
What on earth possessed him to spout his recent 'making Brexit work' sh yte. Even Sunakackered is rowing back on that now. It is like he is taking a penalty against an undefended goal. So he decides to back heel it with his non kicking foot.
There is so much that is wrong, not simply through warped ideology but through years of incompetence.
Let's hear him talk of how the utilities are going to be run better. If not through public ownership, then at least far better enforced regulation. Apply equal taxation to businesses and not allow private schools to claim they are some sort of charity. Stop the idiocy of HS2 and instead work towards covering the country with fast fibre. Take out 10 landlords a day and shoot them, 'pour encourage les autres'
State that the UK will build wind turbines onshore. If they look
'unsightly' they are not as unsightly as recent electric bills have been.
Increase inheritance tax on housing. Someone works hard, builds up a business wants to hand it down to his family....fine. Someone bought a house in the 70's and seen a massive increase in its value while doing nothing...claw it back, to built housing for the next generation. Maybe at the same multiples of their wages as in the 70s.
Starmer needs to show that him and his lot are in Parliament to help others..... not as Tories, who are there to help themselves, be it through fraud, bribery, backhanders etc. | | | |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 08:10 - Jun 4 with 2034 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour are part of the problem when they should be the solution on 10:41 - Jun 3 by Guthrum |
It comes back to the old problem that, under the present electoral system, unless you can persuade voters trained for decades in consumerist individualism to vote for progressive policies, all the good intentions will count for nothing. There will be zero change. Currently in the UK there is the brutal choice between being seriously reforming and unelectable or moderate and standing a chance.
The radicals will just move to the more comfortable - but completely ineffectual - fringes. Whereas they might be better staying in the mainstream and trying to steer it in a more reformist direction should power be gained.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, change in attitudes was effected through the twin strands of electoral reform and education. The latter is harder nowadays in an environment of a prescribed curriculum and the exam passing/school league table struggle. There is less opportunity to present a progressive agenda in the classroom. Doubly so with a constant distractionary media diet. As for electoral reform, the major parties are too scared of it leading to their breaking up and/or loss of absolute power in office.
Which is a long-winded way of saying we are pretty stuffed and the best hope is for incremental change over a long time period. |
I don't even think it's an issue with the electoral system. Green Party opposition to housing and infrastructure represents little more than managed decline.
As a young person, I feel like they have as much contempt for me as the Tories do. |  |
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