| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? 23:12 - Jun 9 with 6371 views | pointofblue |
It feels like the majority of Europe… and possibly the US… is now moving towards the right, just as we’re about to swing, albeit slightly, to the left. I suppose politics is all about ebb and flow and when the far right is exposed as not having the answers, it’ll change on the continent as well. |  |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 00:06 - Jun 10 with 5435 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Ireland won't be electing too many Right Wing nut jobs. Handful of local government ones and no European ones.
27 people going for 5 places in my Euro constituency so the usual Anti Vaxers and country full candidates who unfortunately I failed to see. [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 0:09]
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:17 - Jun 10 with 5171 views | thebooks |
I think it’s volatile… I do agree that the far right isn’t actually popular, and of course it’s very useless at being in government, as we know.
It tends to get in when mainstream parties don’t offer anything, or on the back of shock events like Brexit. Starmer will have a big problem with Reform (or whatever they’re calling themselves) in a couple of years.
I think it was pretty mixed in Europe in the end, but obviously France and Germany’s results are a disaster. |  | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:28 - Jun 10 with 5104 views | Clutch |
Europe is alot more to the right than the UK!
If you're comparing Farages exploits to Le Pen, then that's insane. Farage got very little traction. |  | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:34 - Jun 10 with 5062 views | ElephantintheRoom |
You’re confusing first past the post with democracy. There is a huge rump of racist nut jobs in the UK that Farage and the DUP has been mining for decades.
Proportional representation simply reflects how people vote | |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:39 - Jun 10 with 5048 views | victorywilhappen |
Maybes folks rejection of the traditional & mainstream are searching for an alternative that they hope will save them and listen to them. Rather than take personal reponsibility, have empathy and look deeper than the surface of what the issues are..
Attention capitalism, entitlement & fear of lost futures might be part of the reason. [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 7:40]
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:58 - Jun 10 with 4908 views | Mookamoo |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:17 - Jun 10 by thebooks |
I think it’s volatile… I do agree that the far right isn’t actually popular, and of course it’s very useless at being in government, as we know.
It tends to get in when mainstream parties don’t offer anything, or on the back of shock events like Brexit. Starmer will have a big problem with Reform (or whatever they’re calling themselves) in a couple of years.
I think it was pretty mixed in Europe in the end, but obviously France and Germany’s results are a disaster. |
Will be interesting to see what threat Reform are to Labour. You would imagine by the next election the Tories would have moved to the right and claimed a lot of that support back.
Starmer is more likely to find out that the Labour left will be more vocal and he'll have to look over both shoulders |  | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:59 - Jun 10 with 4899 views | Swansea_Blue |
I don’t think we’re ahead of Europe. It’s the other way round if anything, and let’s not forget that people like Johnson learned from the architects of the rise of right wing populism in the states (Johnson not so right wing, but certainly populist and using the Bannon/Trump playbook).
As long as the current system continues to create great wealth inequality and governments breaking their side of the social contract (to provide security and order) nothing will change. Grifters like Farage will always exploit the arising frustrations and anger that’s felt when people are left behind. |  |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:03 - Jun 10 with 4861 views | tcblue |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:28 - Jun 10 by Clutch |
Europe is alot more to the right than the UK!
If you're comparing Farages exploits to Le Pen, then that's insane. Farage got very little traction. |
I guess it depends where you place the current government on the scale.
To me, they're at least edging far right. | | | |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:06 - Jun 10 with 4846 views | thebooks |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:58 - Jun 10 by Mookamoo |
Will be interesting to see what threat Reform are to Labour. You would imagine by the next election the Tories would have moved to the right and claimed a lot of that support back.
Starmer is more likely to find out that the Labour left will be more vocal and he'll have to look over both shoulders |
I’m thinking of the places they lost in 2019, all the small-medium sized towns (including Ipswich) on top of rural areas.
Yeah, the left too… He’ll get a landslide next month, but it’s purely a get the Tories out vote. Going to be tough for him. | | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:11 - Jun 10 with 4806 views | tcblue |
I don't see much difference idealogically between Reform and the Conservatives.
The grab that might happen is down to the Tories incompetence enacting their far right policies, rather than the policies themselves.
We took the genie out of the bottle when the £350m per week bus was paraded. From that point on it was made obvious that there was no need for truth or integrity in politics, you could just shout daft lies to the disenfranchised. | | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:45 - Jun 10 with 4700 views | Guthrum |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 07:39 - Jun 10 by victorywilhappen |
Maybes folks rejection of the traditional & mainstream are searching for an alternative that they hope will save them and listen to them. Rather than take personal reponsibility, have empathy and look deeper than the surface of what the issues are..
Attention capitalism, entitlement & fear of lost futures might be part of the reason. [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 7:40]
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People were promised lots of nice things, but didn't get most of them and, anyway, other people got a whole lot more (or are presented as such - see: Celebrity culture).
Combine that with a generation in their 60s and over having lived through social and economic changes of the like not seen since the Industrial Revolution (and at a much faster pace).
Much of what we're seeing is a reaction to those things. |  |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:53 - Jun 10 with 4658 views | Herbivore |
We're definitely not ahead. The UK has - both the Tories and Labour - have moved comfortable to the right over the last 5 years and there's a significant chunk of the population who will vote for the Tories or Reform in the upcoming GE, both parties at the fringes of the far right with their anti-immigration and anti-progressive rhetoric. Our electoral system means they'll lose whereas in most of Europe they might be able to pull together some sort of coalition with other parties. What we don't have in the UK currently is much in the way of progressive left wing parties. We have the Greens and that's about it and even they aren't traditionally left necessarily, just focused on environmental issues first and foremost. Other European countries have more progressive left wing parties and some of those have made gains in these elections too, albeit they aren't as eye catching (or worrying) as the rise of the far right. |  |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 09:33 - Jun 10 with 4496 views | Mookamoo |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:06 - Jun 10 by thebooks |
I’m thinking of the places they lost in 2019, all the small-medium sized towns (including Ipswich) on top of rural areas.
Yeah, the left too… He’ll get a landslide next month, but it’s purely a get the Tories out vote. Going to be tough for him. |
The right vote in Ipswich must now be split for years to come or at least until Farage gets bored which will happen
I think he'll have more of an issue from within when the next, more palatable Corbyn makes themselves known | | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 10:59 - Jun 10 with 4353 views | jayessess |
Looks more like a ratchet effect than an ebb and flow to me.
Essentially, the system that drove economic growth in Western Europe and North America was largely exhausted and discredited in 2008 and there's been no serious systematic attempt at reforming it.
Each election cycle is characterised by anaemic economic growth and a largely dissatisfied population. A left-wing exit from the crisis is largely impossible (for a combination of reasons both related to the structure of these societies and the flaws in left-wing political forces). So the ultra-right makes the running - "what Farage says today, the Conservatives says tomorrow and the Labour Party legislates on the day after." [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 14:48]
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 12:11 - Jun 10 with 4216 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 10:59 - Jun 10 by jayessess |
Looks more like a ratchet effect than an ebb and flow to me.
Essentially, the system that drove economic growth in Western Europe and North America was largely exhausted and discredited in 2008 and there's been no serious systematic attempt at reforming it.
Each election cycle is characterised by anaemic economic growth and a largely dissatisfied population. A left-wing exit from the crisis is largely impossible (for a combination of reasons both related to the structure of these societies and the flaws in left-wing political forces). So the ultra-right makes the running - "what Farage says today, the Conservatives says tomorrow and the Labour Party legislates on the day after." [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 14:48]
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“ Essentially, the system that drove economic growth in Western Europe and North America was largely exhausted”
Not sure that really applies to the US which has posted fairly impressive growth for an advanced economy. Unequal growth perhaps, but pre-GFC the US and EU were largely on parity in terms of GDP as the largest economies in the world. Fast forward to 2023, and the EU is now only 80pc of the size of the US economy (despite adding another country), weighed down by structural weaknesses, debt (particularly in the Eurozone), and a lack of entrepreneurship. [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 13:53]
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 12:25 - Jun 10 with 4183 views | WeWereZombies |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 08:45 - Jun 10 by Guthrum |
People were promised lots of nice things, but didn't get most of them and, anyway, other people got a whole lot more (or are presented as such - see: Celebrity culture).
Combine that with a generation in their 60s and over having lived through social and economic changes of the like not seen since the Industrial Revolution (and at a much faster pace).
Much of what we're seeing is a reaction to those things. |
I think it is all too easy to blame the drift to the right on an ageing population, the political shock in the European elections is reported to have come from younger voters. Are they more easily swayed by extremist promises, or do they feel trapped by the retrenchment of social democratic society with its limited opportunities to 'get ahead' ?
I, as ever, am playing catch up on the iPlayer and have managed to catch an interview with Professor Daron Acemoglu last night ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001n0yj/hardtalk-professor-daron-acemolu- ) Quizzed on Artificial Intelligence technology he compared it to an innovation on the scale of the British Industrial Revolution and with the resulting inequality for teh working classes likely to ensue. Maybe we are already seeing a reaction to that, and an effect in the way social media manipulates younger voters ? As ever, the race to the bottom will see desperate tactics in desperate times.
Edited to correct link. [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 12:28]
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 12:58 - Jun 10 with 4092 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 10:59 - Jun 10 by jayessess |
Looks more like a ratchet effect than an ebb and flow to me.
Essentially, the system that drove economic growth in Western Europe and North America was largely exhausted and discredited in 2008 and there's been no serious systematic attempt at reforming it.
Each election cycle is characterised by anaemic economic growth and a largely dissatisfied population. A left-wing exit from the crisis is largely impossible (for a combination of reasons both related to the structure of these societies and the flaws in left-wing political forces). So the ultra-right makes the running - "what Farage says today, the Conservatives says tomorrow and the Labour Party legislates on the day after." [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 14:48]
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There is no money in Left Wing politics which is why the grifters are all Right Wing. | | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 13:45 - Jun 10 with 3995 views | DinDjarin |
The top reason in the US polling data for the shift and probably very high up in most of the European countries also is immigration. |  | | |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 13:50 - Jun 10 with 3966 views | Herbivore |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 13:45 - Jun 10 by DinDjarin |
The top reason in the US polling data for the shift and probably very high up in most of the European countries also is immigration. |
Although I'd argue that's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Do people get attracted to the far right because of existing concerns they have about immigration or do people start worrying about immigration because of far right narratives about immigration being platformed? | |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 14:41 - Jun 10 with 3873 views | bournemouthblue |
I think the sad truth of things is that the Far Right always tends to flourish more so than the left in times of financial crisis, they often have simpler answers to things, which are easier to communicate even if principley they are wrong and soon fall apart under any level of scrutiny.
Left wing ideas are normally more nuanced.
History seems to repeat itself sadly, people never seem to learn the lessons from it. |  |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 14:45 - Jun 10 with 3852 views | bournemouthblue |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 13:50 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
Although I'd argue that's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Do people get attracted to the far right because of existing concerns they have about immigration or do people start worrying about immigration because of far right narratives about immigration being platformed? |
Very much the latter and it's aided and abbeted by papers like the Daily Mail which essentially brainwash vast swathes of the public
That's not to say all the public are stupid but a fair proportion of them are sadly
It's very much in the interests of politicians in certain areas for the public to remain ignorant about politics and let their media buddies do the work for them | |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 15:03 - Jun 10 with 3795 views | Radlett_blue |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 13:45 - Jun 10 by DinDjarin |
The top reason in the US polling data for the shift and probably very high up in most of the European countries also is immigration. |
Yes, unsurprisingly immigration has become a much bigger issue in Europe. Just going on the number of official asylum claims, this has increased 10X since 2008. While Syrians made up the largest number in 2023, the second largest number was from Turkey, showing that civil wars are by no means the only driver. Obviously Turkey's proximity to Europe is a big factor. Whether people like it or not, Europe is going to find a way of dealing with increasing numbers of largely economic migrants e.g a large number of "claimants" have been appearing from economically stricken Venezuela. The problem with mainstream politicians is that they have no plan to deal with this, still hiding behind the broken and misused asylum system & their unwillingness to grasp the issue has led large number of voters to turn to right wing, populist politicians. |  |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 15:26 - Jun 10 with 3757 views | WeWereZombies |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 13:45 - Jun 10 by DinDjarin |
The top reason in the US polling data for the shift and probably very high up in most of the European countries also is immigration. |
And to think that the United States once had a President who had written a book like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_of_Immigrants | |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 15:26 - Jun 10 with 3756 views | jayessess |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 15:03 - Jun 10 by Radlett_blue |
Yes, unsurprisingly immigration has become a much bigger issue in Europe. Just going on the number of official asylum claims, this has increased 10X since 2008. While Syrians made up the largest number in 2023, the second largest number was from Turkey, showing that civil wars are by no means the only driver. Obviously Turkey's proximity to Europe is a big factor. Whether people like it or not, Europe is going to find a way of dealing with increasing numbers of largely economic migrants e.g a large number of "claimants" have been appearing from economically stricken Venezuela. The problem with mainstream politicians is that they have no plan to deal with this, still hiding behind the broken and misused asylum system & their unwillingness to grasp the issue has led large number of voters to turn to right wing, populist politicians. |
The issue is that too many people in the Global North are unwilling to face the underlying realities that shape human migration and none of their political class or media have any interest in explaining those realities.
We've had basically a quarter of a century of government promising radical cuts in immigration. They haven't delivered because they can't deliver. All the economic and geopolitical forces that make people migrate are out of their control, so every law they pass is just pissing in the wind. | |
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| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 15:34 - Jun 10 with 3739 views | Radlett_blue |
| Was the U.K. just ahead of the rest? on 15:26 - Jun 10 by jayessess |
The issue is that too many people in the Global North are unwilling to face the underlying realities that shape human migration and none of their political class or media have any interest in explaining those realities.
We've had basically a quarter of a century of government promising radical cuts in immigration. They haven't delivered because they can't deliver. All the economic and geopolitical forces that make people migrate are out of their control, so every law they pass is just pissing in the wind. |
And the huge increase in migration is coming at a time when economic growth in much of developed Europe has slowed Most European economies are lucky to grow at 2% these days & that, together with bad demographics, notably in Germany & France, is putting huge strain on government finances. | |
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