| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 15:44 - Jun 23 with 3653 views | factual_blue |
WEE WORNT HOUR COWNTREE BAK |  |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 16:16 - Jun 23 with 3616 views | lowhouseblue |
if only we'd had an objective and evidence based review that looked into this incredibly difficult area. oh hold on, we did. it was published 2 months ago. the cass report carried out a systematic review of the evidence and it did not show that medical transition reduced suicide risk. while it recognised that suicide risk in children and young people with gender dysphoria is higher than in the general youth population it appears to be comparable to other young people with a similar range of mental health and psychosocial challenges - “Tragically deaths by suicide in trans people of all ages continue to be above the national average, but there is no evidence that gender affirmative treatments reduce this. Such evidence as is available suggests that these deaths are related to a range of other complex psychosocial factors and to mental illness.”
you seem to be pushing an agenda against a thorough, independent and evidence-based review. which aspect is it that you dislike,? the fact that cass was independent, not agenda driven, or that it was evidence-based? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:26 - Jun 23 with 3473 views | BlueBadger |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 16:16 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
if only we'd had an objective and evidence based review that looked into this incredibly difficult area. oh hold on, we did. it was published 2 months ago. the cass report carried out a systematic review of the evidence and it did not show that medical transition reduced suicide risk. while it recognised that suicide risk in children and young people with gender dysphoria is higher than in the general youth population it appears to be comparable to other young people with a similar range of mental health and psychosocial challenges - “Tragically deaths by suicide in trans people of all ages continue to be above the national average, but there is no evidence that gender affirmative treatments reduce this. Such evidence as is available suggests that these deaths are related to a range of other complex psychosocial factors and to mental illness.”
you seem to be pushing an agenda against a thorough, independent and evidence-based review. which aspect is it that you dislike,? the fact that cass was independent, not agenda driven, or that it was evidence-based? |
The Case report disregarded an enormous amount of global evidence, which it's been right criticised for. If you ignore an awful lot of evidence, then what you have left tends to be very weak.
[Post edited 23 Jun 2024 18:30]
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:28 - Jun 23 with 3454 views | BlueBadger |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:26 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
The Case report disregarded an enormous amount of global evidence, which it's been right criticised for. If you ignore an awful lot of evidence, then what you have left tends to be very weak.
[Post edited 23 Jun 2024 18:30]
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And I'll be making no apologies for not wanting to see vulnerable young coming to potentially avoidable harms and deaths agenda. [Post edited 23 Jun 2024 18:28]
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:33 - Jun 23 with 3438 views | lowhouseblue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:26 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
The Case report disregarded an enormous amount of global evidence, which it's been right criticised for. If you ignore an awful lot of evidence, then what you have left tends to be very weak.
[Post edited 23 Jun 2024 18:30]
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what nonsense. i hadn't seen you as someone who opposes evidence based medicine. your response here is exactly the same as the response of anti-vaxxers to evidence of vaccine efficacy. "I FOunD iT On THe InTERneT aNd IT SaiD aLl ThEM sciENtTiFFIc sTuDiEs Are jUSt boLL*Cks." (copyright: BlueBadger) | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:36 - Jun 23 with 3420 views | lowhouseblue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:28 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
And I'll be making no apologies for not wanting to see vulnerable young coming to potentially avoidable harms and deaths agenda. [Post edited 23 Jun 2024 18:28]
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"i make no apologies for wanting to defend vulnerable people from having secret mind control drugs injected by the state pretending that it's a vaccine"
jeez, who'd have thought you be like them and put your agenda above evidence and scientific reviews. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 20:12 - Jun 23 with 3256 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:33 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
what nonsense. i hadn't seen you as someone who opposes evidence based medicine. your response here is exactly the same as the response of anti-vaxxers to evidence of vaccine efficacy. "I FOunD iT On THe InTERneT aNd IT SaiD aLl ThEM sciENtTiFFIc sTuDiEs Are jUSt boLL*Cks." (copyright: BlueBadger) |
The people brought in to work on the Cass report and approve its findings were not the dispassionate objective sifters of evidence, but [edit:many] were active opposers of intervention to help young trans people lives better, they cherry picked information to suit its purpose - many of the studies it quoted were not fully peer reviewed, or contradicted each other and some cases the Cass report openly misquoted and misinterpreted the evidence. There is enough information around, not on the internet, but in peer reviewed journals, that cast a lot of doubt on the Cass report's findings even before it was published..I have friends who have to live with the culture wars impact on trans people, and it ain't pretty.....
Later edit: {I will withdraw the comments made in my post above, because having read it back, I have fallen foul of some of the misinformaion about the report, and my post does not represent my true opinion on this issue. I will keep it up though (with this para attached at the bottom) as an example of over-emotional posting...} [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 10:22]
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 20:14 - Jun 23 with 3229 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:36 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
"i make no apologies for wanting to defend vulnerable people from having secret mind control drugs injected by the state pretending that it's a vaccine"
jeez, who'd have thought you be like them and put your agenda above evidence and scientific reviews. |
Wow! Mr Objective goes rogue!!! | |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 20:27 - Jun 23 with 3145 views | lowhouseblue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 20:12 - Jun 23 by Ewan_Oozami |
The people brought in to work on the Cass report and approve its findings were not the dispassionate objective sifters of evidence, but [edit:many] were active opposers of intervention to help young trans people lives better, they cherry picked information to suit its purpose - many of the studies it quoted were not fully peer reviewed, or contradicted each other and some cases the Cass report openly misquoted and misinterpreted the evidence. There is enough information around, not on the internet, but in peer reviewed journals, that cast a lot of doubt on the Cass report's findings even before it was published..I have friends who have to live with the culture wars impact on trans people, and it ain't pretty.....
Later edit: {I will withdraw the comments made in my post above, because having read it back, I have fallen foul of some of the misinformaion about the report, and my post does not represent my true opinion on this issue. I will keep it up though (with this para attached at the bottom) as an example of over-emotional posting...} [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 10:22]
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nonsense. jeez, we have another nascent anti-vaxxer. cass was thorough and evidence based and attacks upon it by interest groups are entirely agenda driven. desperately searching the internet for those attacks in order to rubbish the review is pure tin-hattery. to quote a post-cass assessment from the guardian: "Significant numbers of gender-questioning children – it’s impossible to know exactly how many because the clinic did not keep records, itself a scandal – were put on an unevidenced medical pathway of puberty-blocking drugs and/or cross-sex hormones, despite risks of harm in relation to brain development, fertility, bone density, mental health and adult sexual functioning." cass has proven beyond sensible doubt that gids had abandoned evidence based medicine. jeez. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:16 - Jun 24 with 2838 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 18:26 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
The Case report disregarded an enormous amount of global evidence, which it's been right criticised for. If you ignore an awful lot of evidence, then what you have left tends to be very weak.
[Post edited 23 Jun 2024 18:30]
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I’m not familiar with this so I went looking for the response to the report and the first thing I found was this positive response from your employer.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-
Are there any credible links which counter this? It’s an incredibly important subject that should be discussed in a factual based manner.
Edit full fact appear to counter the claim that enormous amounts of evidence were excluded.
https://fullfact.org/health/cass-butler-stonewall-100-studies/
Ms Butler has since corrected the record in Parliament. But we’ve continued to see various versions of the claim that 100 studies were not included in the Cass Review circulate on social media since then.
Politicians, charities, campaigners and people on social media should take care to talk accurately about evidence, especially in medicine, where false or misleading information may harm people who use it to make decisions about their health.
99.9% of the time I will defer to your greater knowledge on matters of health, but on this occasion you seem to be coming at this from an emotional standpoint and not from a scientific one. [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 9:45]
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:36 - Jun 24 with 2760 views | J2BLUE |
All gone a bit quiet |  |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:40 - Jun 24 with 2722 views | lowhouseblue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:16 - Jun 24 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m not familiar with this so I went looking for the response to the report and the first thing I found was this positive response from your employer.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-
Are there any credible links which counter this? It’s an incredibly important subject that should be discussed in a factual based manner.
Edit full fact appear to counter the claim that enormous amounts of evidence were excluded.
https://fullfact.org/health/cass-butler-stonewall-100-studies/
Ms Butler has since corrected the record in Parliament. But we’ve continued to see various versions of the claim that 100 studies were not included in the Cass Review circulate on social media since then.
Politicians, charities, campaigners and people on social media should take care to talk accurately about evidence, especially in medicine, where false or misleading information may harm people who use it to make decisions about their health.
99.9% of the time I will defer to your greater knowledge on matters of health, but on this occasion you seem to be coming at this from an emotional standpoint and not from a scientific one. [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 9:45]
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the infected blood scandal was obviously on a completely different scale - but there are similarities here. in both cases medics arrogantly ignored the interests of patients. in the case of gids it seems to have been an ideologically driven decision to treat without sufficient evidence. what cass shows is that a large proportion of gender distressed kids who are not given affirmative medical treatment don't go on to transition. but its appears (for both boys and girls) around 90% of them do go on to be gay. so what we we had was vulnerable gay kids being given non-evidenced based experimental treatments with risks of harm in relation to their brain development, fertility, bone density, mental health and adult sexual functioning. and when cass produces a thorough and independent 4 year review relying on objective research and exposes this she is attacked. what a strange world. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:06 - Jun 24 with 2629 views | Trequartista |
It's trans activists that have done the damage to these vulnerable young people. |  |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:20 - Jun 24 with 2584 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:40 - Jun 24 by lowhouseblue |
the infected blood scandal was obviously on a completely different scale - but there are similarities here. in both cases medics arrogantly ignored the interests of patients. in the case of gids it seems to have been an ideologically driven decision to treat without sufficient evidence. what cass shows is that a large proportion of gender distressed kids who are not given affirmative medical treatment don't go on to transition. but its appears (for both boys and girls) around 90% of them do go on to be gay. so what we we had was vulnerable gay kids being given non-evidenced based experimental treatments with risks of harm in relation to their brain development, fertility, bone density, mental health and adult sexual functioning. and when cass produces a thorough and independent 4 year review relying on objective research and exposes this she is attacked. what a strange world. |
I will withdraw the comments made in my post above, because having read it back, I have fallen foul of some of the misinformaion about the report, and my post does not represent my true opinion on this issue. I will keep it up though (with this para attached at the bottom) as an example of over-emotional posting...
I don't approve of the apparently indicriminate use of puberty-blockers by GIDS, I do approve of a more evidence-based approach to gender issues in young people (difficult though that may be).
The NHS always has to be very careful in how it manages its healthcare processes and the fact that the Tavistock could operate in the way it did for so long has, I think, slightly embarrased NHS managers - hence the robust recommendations of the Cass Report have been welcomed by them.
Do I think the report will be used to attack trans people? Yes, because it already has been - but that would happen whatever conclusions the report came to.
Do I condone any attacks on Professor Cass or other writers of the report? Not at all.
Bit concerned that one lapse of judgement from me has got me labelled as a "nascent anti-vaxxer", but there you go, that's my new signature! | |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:22 - Jun 24 with 2562 views | Herbivore |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:16 - Jun 24 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m not familiar with this so I went looking for the response to the report and the first thing I found was this positive response from your employer.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-
Are there any credible links which counter this? It’s an incredibly important subject that should be discussed in a factual based manner.
Edit full fact appear to counter the claim that enormous amounts of evidence were excluded.
https://fullfact.org/health/cass-butler-stonewall-100-studies/
Ms Butler has since corrected the record in Parliament. But we’ve continued to see various versions of the claim that 100 studies were not included in the Cass Review circulate on social media since then.
Politicians, charities, campaigners and people on social media should take care to talk accurately about evidence, especially in medicine, where false or misleading information may harm people who use it to make decisions about their health.
99.9% of the time I will defer to your greater knowledge on matters of health, but on this occasion you seem to be coming at this from an emotional standpoint and not from a scientific one. [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 9:45]
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There are also academic articles criticising the Cass report for a variety of reasons, primarily related to methodological flaws and risk of bias. Personally, I think we do need to be cautious about prescribing life changing treatments too quickly to young people and agree with Cass on that. What I'm less keen on is the way the report has been hijacked by people with an anti-trans agenda (I don't include you in that by the way) as definitive proof that we shouldn't support young people to transition. Even Cass herself has said that in some cases medical treatment will be appropriate. It's a nuanced debate that some people want to see in black and white terms, and the Cass review is being treated similarly.
https://osf.io/preprints/osf/uhndk
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2328249
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2362304 |  |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:27 - Jun 24 with 2486 views | Herbivore |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:20 - Jun 24 by Ewan_Oozami |
I will withdraw the comments made in my post above, because having read it back, I have fallen foul of some of the misinformaion about the report, and my post does not represent my true opinion on this issue. I will keep it up though (with this para attached at the bottom) as an example of over-emotional posting...
I don't approve of the apparently indicriminate use of puberty-blockers by GIDS, I do approve of a more evidence-based approach to gender issues in young people (difficult though that may be).
The NHS always has to be very careful in how it manages its healthcare processes and the fact that the Tavistock could operate in the way it did for so long has, I think, slightly embarrased NHS managers - hence the robust recommendations of the Cass Report have been welcomed by them.
Do I think the report will be used to attack trans people? Yes, because it already has been - but that would happen whatever conclusions the report came to.
Do I condone any attacks on Professor Cass or other writers of the report? Not at all.
Bit concerned that one lapse of judgement from me has got me labelled as a "nascent anti-vaxxer", but there you go, that's my new signature! |
The response you received is, sadly, typical of the poster in question. He was telling disenchanted left leaning posters to vote for Galloway the other day, repeatedly, even after said posters had pointed out they find Galloway abhorrent. This post from you is well considered and shows that it's a nuanced debate, sadly some people want to co-opt the Cass review into the culture war version of the debate about transitioning, which I'm sure Cass herself would be very disappointed about. [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 10:30]
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:29 - Jun 24 with 2475 views | lowhouseblue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:20 - Jun 24 by Ewan_Oozami |
I will withdraw the comments made in my post above, because having read it back, I have fallen foul of some of the misinformaion about the report, and my post does not represent my true opinion on this issue. I will keep it up though (with this para attached at the bottom) as an example of over-emotional posting...
I don't approve of the apparently indicriminate use of puberty-blockers by GIDS, I do approve of a more evidence-based approach to gender issues in young people (difficult though that may be).
The NHS always has to be very careful in how it manages its healthcare processes and the fact that the Tavistock could operate in the way it did for so long has, I think, slightly embarrased NHS managers - hence the robust recommendations of the Cass Report have been welcomed by them.
Do I think the report will be used to attack trans people? Yes, because it already has been - but that would happen whatever conclusions the report came to.
Do I condone any attacks on Professor Cass or other writers of the report? Not at all.
Bit concerned that one lapse of judgement from me has got me labelled as a "nascent anti-vaxxer", but there you go, that's my new signature! |
cheers. i do think this stuff is difficult and unavoidably emotive. it's all about essentially vulnerable people and wanting the best for them. finding the right approach for kids in great distress must be incredibly challenging for medics. the 'politics' of it all at the moment just makes it more difficult. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:40 - Jun 24 with 2408 views | itfcjoe |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:22 - Jun 24 by Herbivore |
There are also academic articles criticising the Cass report for a variety of reasons, primarily related to methodological flaws and risk of bias. Personally, I think we do need to be cautious about prescribing life changing treatments too quickly to young people and agree with Cass on that. What I'm less keen on is the way the report has been hijacked by people with an anti-trans agenda (I don't include you in that by the way) as definitive proof that we shouldn't support young people to transition. Even Cass herself has said that in some cases medical treatment will be appropriate. It's a nuanced debate that some people want to see in black and white terms, and the Cass review is being treated similarly.
https://osf.io/preprints/osf/uhndk
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2328249
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2362304 |
I think everything in this sphere is - but like any report of this ilk the only real rebuttals that need to be listened to and analysed are those from the scientific community which will come from both sides of the debate but not from the shrieking extremes.
At the moment in this debate, like most of UK debates, nuance is seen as a sign that people don't understand the issue opposed to what is required and needed. Hopefully Labour's position post the GE next week will reflect this |  |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:43 - Jun 24 with 2387 views | lowhouseblue |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:22 - Jun 24 by Herbivore |
There are also academic articles criticising the Cass report for a variety of reasons, primarily related to methodological flaws and risk of bias. Personally, I think we do need to be cautious about prescribing life changing treatments too quickly to young people and agree with Cass on that. What I'm less keen on is the way the report has been hijacked by people with an anti-trans agenda (I don't include you in that by the way) as definitive proof that we shouldn't support young people to transition. Even Cass herself has said that in some cases medical treatment will be appropriate. It's a nuanced debate that some people want to see in black and white terms, and the Cass review is being treated similarly.
https://osf.io/preprints/osf/uhndk
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2328249
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2362304 |
no one, certainly not cass, has suggested that kids in gender distress shouldn't be supported. cass is calling for holistic mental health support. but there is no evidence that affirmative medical intervention produces good outcomes. a quick search for 'articles critical of cass' doesn't negate the serious findings in her report. [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 10:43]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 11:10 - Jun 24 with 2288 views | Herbivore |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:40 - Jun 24 by itfcjoe |
I think everything in this sphere is - but like any report of this ilk the only real rebuttals that need to be listened to and analysed are those from the scientific community which will come from both sides of the debate but not from the shrieking extremes.
At the moment in this debate, like most of UK debates, nuance is seen as a sign that people don't understand the issue opposed to what is required and needed. Hopefully Labour's position post the GE next week will reflect this |
The rebuttals I've posted are in (or about to be in) peer reviewed academic journals, they aren't some online blog or opinion piece by Stonewall. Even the findings of the Cass review require nuance to be interpreted, some seem to want to accept it as definitive and to interpret it in a certain light because it suits their agenda. There's quite a lot of confirmation bias going on. | |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 11:11 - Jun 24 with 2287 views | DJR |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 10:40 - Jun 24 by itfcjoe |
I think everything in this sphere is - but like any report of this ilk the only real rebuttals that need to be listened to and analysed are those from the scientific community which will come from both sides of the debate but not from the shrieking extremes.
At the moment in this debate, like most of UK debates, nuance is seen as a sign that people don't understand the issue opposed to what is required and needed. Hopefully Labour's position post the GE next week will reflect this |
Surprisingly given the Ming vase strategy, Labour has this morning put a little part of its head above the parapet on this issue.
https://news.sky.com/video/labour-wants-to-bring-people-together-in-trans-debate
The backlash in the right wing media has already begun. [Post edited 24 Jun 2024 11:12]
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 11:26 - Jun 24 with 2225 views | itfcjoe |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 11:10 - Jun 24 by Herbivore |
The rebuttals I've posted are in (or about to be in) peer reviewed academic journals, they aren't some online blog or opinion piece by Stonewall. Even the findings of the Cass review require nuance to be interpreted, some seem to want to accept it as definitive and to interpret it in a certain light because it suits their agenda. There's quite a lot of confirmation bias going on. |
Sorry, my post was an attempt to reinforce your point not argue against it | |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 11:31 - Jun 24 with 2202 views | itfcjoe |
I'm sure their live Q&A with readers of The Sun today will be a really informative and nuanced debate - think that's one I'll be giving a wide berth too | |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 14:01 - Jun 24 with 1951 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 09:36 - Jun 24 by J2BLUE |
All gone a bit quiet |
Political correctness gone mad I tell you. |  |
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| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 14:48 - Jun 24 with 1911 views | J2BLUE |
| Who's have though that a sustained culture of... on 14:01 - Jun 24 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Political correctness gone mad I tell you. |
I was waiting for you to say it doesn't matter as the numbers are small. | |
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