| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? 07:39 - Jun 26 with 2242 views | StokieBlue |
Many will agree that the actions of JSO last week were ill-advised, however over the longer term they won't have a lasting impact on the site.
These proposals from the government and National Highways will however have a huge lasting impact on the site with the possibility of Stonehenge being place on World Heritage's danger list:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jun/25/stonehenge-likely-world-
SB |  | | |  |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 07:41 - Jun 26 with 2215 views | wkj |
Voting [redacted] [Post edited 26 Jun 2024 7:45]
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 15:46 - Jun 26 with 2069 views | StokieBlue |
I'm pretty surprised that JSO chucking orange powder on Stonehenge generated 4 pages of mostly vitriol but the government looking to do probable long-lasting damage to both Stonehenge and the surrounding archaeological sites doesn't even generate a response.
And there was me thinking it was all about protecting the stones.
SB | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 15:55 - Jun 26 with 2043 views | bluelagos |
What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?
On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by. |  |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:00 - Jun 26 with 2016 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 15:55 - Jun 26 by bluelagos |
What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?
On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by. |
"What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?"
Stonehenge isn't the only site there, it's connected to other sites and all the areas around are various types of earthworks. There is also likely undiscovered archelogy in the area. I believe Leitrim covered this better in the JSO thread.
There is a a reason that it will lead to a re-evaluation of the World Heritage status, they have said:
"The main henge is a highly visible and well-known monument and the proposed tunnel would improve its immediate setting, but this monument has to be considered in its context, surrounded by and inextricably linked to a large number of prehistoric features, which together form an ancient landscape.
“It is the entirety of the inscribed landscape that constitutes the Stonehenge component of the property, not just the main henge monument. This interrelated ensemble of sites is regarded as a designed ritual landscape, with barrows and other features deliberately sited to be mutually visible.”
"On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by."
This won't be the case, the stones won't be visible from the road anymore and you won't be able to see them without paying and entering the site.
SB | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:03 - Jun 26 with 1994 views | leitrimblue |
I did attempt to explain during that thread that the damage caused by some orange powder was absolutely minimal compared to the destruction of the neolithic ritual landscape around Stonehenge proposed by National Highways.
The same people outraged by a bit of orange powder strangely didn't seem quite as alarmed by this destruction..
UNESCO proposing to put Stonehenge on the monuments in danger list should be embarrassing for the whole country |  | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:04 - Jun 26 with 1988 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 15:46 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
I'm pretty surprised that JSO chucking orange powder on Stonehenge generated 4 pages of mostly vitriol but the government looking to do probable long-lasting damage to both Stonehenge and the surrounding archaeological sites doesn't even generate a response.
And there was me thinking it was all about protecting the stones.
SB |
They are ancient and venerable after all, and one of the nation's great treasures - and Stonehenge isn't far behind.... |  |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:10 - Jun 26 with 1950 views | ronnyd |
I would have thought that the A303 it'self is not helping the overall site. |  | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:12 - Jun 26 with 1941 views | farkenhell |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 15:55 - Jun 26 by bluelagos |
What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?
On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by. |
I read elsewhere that UNESCO actually want a longer tunnel whereas Stonehenge Alliance don't want a tunnel at all. As someone who lives fairly local to the site, I can tell you that the volume of standstill/slow moving traffic is a daily nightmare. Think Central London comes to rural Wiltshire! | | | |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:16 - Jun 26 with 1899 views | Swansea_Blue |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:03 - Jun 26 by leitrimblue |
I did attempt to explain during that thread that the damage caused by some orange powder was absolutely minimal compared to the destruction of the neolithic ritual landscape around Stonehenge proposed by National Highways.
The same people outraged by a bit of orange powder strangely didn't seem quite as alarmed by this destruction..
UNESCO proposing to put Stonehenge on the monuments in danger list should be embarrassing for the whole country |
People don’t really give a monkeys about the site. They just like arguing on the internet between their tribes. Hippies are an easy target. Always have been, it’s just easier to get outraged by them on t’internet.
I don’t know much about the plans. If the tunnel will be dug through buried areas of heritage, it makes sense to at least take the objections seriously. If we care about preserving our heritage that is. |  |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:17 - Jun 26 with 1893 views | giant_stow |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:12 - Jun 26 by farkenhell |
I read elsewhere that UNESCO actually want a longer tunnel whereas Stonehenge Alliance don't want a tunnel at all. As someone who lives fairly local to the site, I can tell you that the volume of standstill/slow moving traffic is a daily nightmare. Think Central London comes to rural Wiltshire! |
I didn't realise the tunnel was only going to be 2 miles long - that's useless. Needs go from the Solstice services to past Winterbourne stoke if it were to happen.
For those not in the know, Leitrim did a good write up of the issues with the tunnel option in the last thread on this. |  |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:19 - Jun 26 with 1881 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:17 - Jun 26 by giant_stow |
I didn't realise the tunnel was only going to be 2 miles long - that's useless. Needs go from the Solstice services to past Winterbourne stoke if it were to happen.
For those not in the know, Leitrim did a good write up of the issues with the tunnel option in the last thread on this. |
I think worth linking to that post he made:
Just Stop Oil spraying Stonehenge with orange paint by leitrimblue 20 Jun 2024 11:12Stonehenge isn't there on it's own. It's a small part of probably the richest neolithic landscape in the world. It's made up of a complex of neolithic ritual monuments linked through processions and lines of sight.
It's that entire landscape that's important and needs protection.
I worked on large infrastructure projects( mainly roads) in Ireland throughout the 'Celtic Tiger'. So I've been heavily involved with there planning and excavation, including putting motorways through large ritual landscapes like Tara (M3) ( Similar in importance to Stonehenge).
The archaeological destruction is enormous. Obviously its not just the tunnel its the enormous groundwork at its entrance and exits.
I understand your question about knowing what's in there but that's not really how archaeologists think nowadays. We ( well good archaeologists) are about leaving the archaeology in situ.
The environs around Stonehenge are so rich that there excavation also can't be trusted to be carried out by commercial companies who work in rescue archaeology with time and monetary constraints. ( kills me to admit it [grin] ) and is best left to research based excavation without these restraints.
No offence, were good queries
SB | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:19 - Jun 26 with 1881 views | bluelagos |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:00 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
"What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?"
Stonehenge isn't the only site there, it's connected to other sites and all the areas around are various types of earthworks. There is also likely undiscovered archelogy in the area. I believe Leitrim covered this better in the JSO thread.
There is a a reason that it will lead to a re-evaluation of the World Heritage status, they have said:
"The main henge is a highly visible and well-known monument and the proposed tunnel would improve its immediate setting, but this monument has to be considered in its context, surrounded by and inextricably linked to a large number of prehistoric features, which together form an ancient landscape.
“It is the entirety of the inscribed landscape that constitutes the Stonehenge component of the property, not just the main henge monument. This interrelated ensemble of sites is regarded as a designed ritual landscape, with barrows and other features deliberately sited to be mutually visible.”
"On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by."
This won't be the case, the stones won't be visible from the road anymore and you won't be able to see them without paying and entering the site.
SB |
Cheers for the response. | |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:21 - Jun 26 with 1867 views | farkenhell |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:00 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
"What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?"
Stonehenge isn't the only site there, it's connected to other sites and all the areas around are various types of earthworks. There is also likely undiscovered archelogy in the area. I believe Leitrim covered this better in the JSO thread.
There is a a reason that it will lead to a re-evaluation of the World Heritage status, they have said:
"The main henge is a highly visible and well-known monument and the proposed tunnel would improve its immediate setting, but this monument has to be considered in its context, surrounded by and inextricably linked to a large number of prehistoric features, which together form an ancient landscape.
“It is the entirety of the inscribed landscape that constitutes the Stonehenge component of the property, not just the main henge monument. This interrelated ensemble of sites is regarded as a designed ritual landscape, with barrows and other features deliberately sited to be mutually visible.”
"On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by."
This won't be the case, the stones won't be visible from the road anymore and you won't be able to see them without paying and entering the site.
SB |
If you want to see the stones, ie properly view them, you have to pay to enter the site. You used to be able to pull up on a minor road adjacent to the A303, but that road was closed (and dug up) when a new visitor centre opened about 15 years ago. Which, incidentally, immediately exacerbated the traffic problems on the A303. | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:22 - Jun 26 with 1858 views | StokieBlue |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:21 - Jun 26 by farkenhell |
If you want to see the stones, ie properly view them, you have to pay to enter the site. You used to be able to pull up on a minor road adjacent to the A303, but that road was closed (and dug up) when a new visitor centre opened about 15 years ago. Which, incidentally, immediately exacerbated the traffic problems on the A303. |
Indeed, you pay and then either hike or get a bus to the stones.
The A303 is a problem but digging up even more of the area is a bigger problem in the views of many with expertise.
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:27 - Jun 26 with 1820 views | bluelagos |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:22 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
Indeed, you pay and then either hike or get a bus to the stones.
The A303 is a problem but digging up even more of the area is a bigger problem in the views of many with expertise.
SB |
I did a walk there last year - parked 5 mile away and trekked making a day of it. There's a public right of way that goes around the perimeter, no charge.
Appreciate for many that's not an option. | |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:28 - Jun 26 with 1799 views | farkenhell |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:17 - Jun 26 by giant_stow |
I didn't realise the tunnel was only going to be 2 miles long - that's useless. Needs go from the Solstice services to past Winterbourne stoke if it were to happen.
For those not in the know, Leitrim did a good write up of the issues with the tunnel option in the last thread on this. |
The original plan included a by-pass for Winterbourne Stoke, although I don't know whether or not that has since fallen by the wayside. | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:31 - Jun 26 with 1776 views | eireblue |
Rather than build a tunnel, just close a chunk of the A303 that goes past Stonehenge.
People will find a way around it. |  | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:43 - Jun 26 with 1735 views | farkenhell |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:22 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
Indeed, you pay and then either hike or get a bus to the stones.
The A303 is a problem but digging up even more of the area is a bigger problem in the views of many with expertise.
SB |
Yes, I agree that protecting the stones and landscape is paramount, however the volume of traffic seems to increase year on year, which of course causes it's own problems, with no solution in sight. According to my elderly neighbour, who was born and brought up here, various schemes and ideas have been mooted and rejected for the past 60 years or so. Other ideas, such as re-routing the A303, come with their own problems, and we keep returning to the tunnel idea. I really don't know how the traffic problems can be solved. I feel particularly sorry for those who live in neighbouring villages (and selfishly thankful that I didn't move to one of them, which I nearly did 15 or so years ago!) | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:47 - Jun 26 with 1721 views | farkenhell |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:31 - Jun 26 by eireblue |
Rather than build a tunnel, just close a chunk of the A303 that goes past Stonehenge.
People will find a way around it. |
That, my friend, would cause even more carnage! | | | |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:50 - Jun 26 with 1711 views | GlasgowBlue |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 15:55 - Jun 26 by bluelagos |
What's the main objections Stokie? Article says the scheme will "wreak havoc" but doesn't give much more detail?
On the face of it tunneling underneath it seems like a good way to reduce the passing traffic and allow more access for ordinary people by freeing space near by. |
Leitrim did a very good job of explaining this last week. Very informative. |  |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 17:44 - Jun 26 with 1632 views | Plums |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:03 - Jun 26 by leitrimblue |
I did attempt to explain during that thread that the damage caused by some orange powder was absolutely minimal compared to the destruction of the neolithic ritual landscape around Stonehenge proposed by National Highways.
The same people outraged by a bit of orange powder strangely didn't seem quite as alarmed by this destruction..
UNESCO proposing to put Stonehenge on the monuments in danger list should be embarrassing for the whole country |
It is. However having signed petitions and repeatedly retweeted the efforts of local campaigners who are vehemently against this vandalism, I personally didn't feel the need to get angry about it again on TWTD.
The orange paint was a stupid act, if it's brought the debate up again then good. |  |
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| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 18:02 - Jun 26 with 1595 views | eireblue |
| What's the bigger threat to Stonehenge, JSO or the government? on 16:47 - Jun 26 by farkenhell |
That, my friend, would cause even more carnage! |
Good, somethings are more important than creating a straight line between two points so that people are less inconvenienced.
Plus, when the aliens come back, look for the stones they used to mark where they left their favourite ride, and some upstart humanoid “civilisation” has nicked the paint work, man we won’t have to worry about climate change. | | | |
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