| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy (n/t) 10:30 - Aug 4 with 4674 views | NthQldITFC |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 10:35 - Aug 4 with 3558 views | J2BLUE |
Good luck with that! |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:03 - Aug 4 with 3476 views | Bent_double |
Not just Britain, the West in general I think. The guy on Newsnight a few days ago likened the situation to the fall of Rome - dont know my history that well, so can't say if he's right - but with so many Western economies owning more than 100% of GDP, something has to give soon.
I guess part of the problem is the huge number of extremely wealthy individuals and businesses around the world, and I suppose they're the ones lending to countries. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:06 - Aug 4 with 3437 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
I'll forgive your tabloid use of the word @narchy a d add that the reset needs to be global. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:12 - Aug 4 with 3391 views | CoachRob |
The humanities graduates claim we have run out of electrons(money) so no can do. Let's be honest we have this anti-intellectualism running amok in society and it seems as the very complex climate and ecological crisis worsens people will seek solutions that actually exacerbates the situation. |  | | |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:13 - Aug 4 with 3379 views | exeterblue10 |
Yes, but a huge task, almost up there with completing the signing of Sammie Szmodics. |  | | |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:22 - Aug 4 with 3312 views | Guthrum |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:03 - Aug 4 by Bent_double |
Not just Britain, the West in general I think. The guy on Newsnight a few days ago likened the situation to the fall of Rome - dont know my history that well, so can't say if he's right - but with so many Western economies owning more than 100% of GDP, something has to give soon.
I guess part of the problem is the huge number of extremely wealthy individuals and businesses around the world, and I suppose they're the ones lending to countries. |
The fall of the Roman Empire* was largely down to repeated debasement of the coinage, causing an economic crisis, coupled with endemic civil war between rival claimants to the imperial throne. The Vandals seizing North Africa was a major disaster, being the region which provided a lot of the food and manpower for the Western Empire. The decision to defend at the frontier, absorbing the client buffer states beyond it (in the search for military glory) also overstrained the military.
The major issue in the West currently is that human labour has become too expensive to compete with places like China, while needing to support a large and ageing population. Taxation is so unpopular it is impossible to raise sufficient funds to cover adequate outgoings. The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower. Governments can also borrow money relatively easily (if, perhaps not cheaply) to cover interest and bond repayments.
* Strictly speaking, the Western Roman Empire being partially fragmented and taken over by Germanic/Gothic groups, many of whom saw themselves as direct successors to it. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:51 - Aug 4 with 3186 views | nodge_blue |
Not sure those right wing thugs were particularly worried about the economy.
But bottom line is debt is huge. We cant afford any more pandemics etc. But as i understand it the debt to GDP ratio is no higher than it was at the end of the second war world. So we need to be careful not to catastrophrise and just be careful with our public spending. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:02 - Aug 4 with 3137 views | cbower |
You are, of course, right but capitalism won in the 1990s and there is now no other way - end of discussion. Wealth creates wealth and those doing very, very well are happy to let just enough trickle down to the masses to avoid implosion. The masses accept the crumbs, hoping they can somehow accumulate enough to be comfortable. It's an increasingly delicate balance that mainstream political parties collude in by tinkering at the margins without changing anything meaningful. In this country, the electoral system militates so strongly against a party like The Greens who advocate significant change that we are stuck with a broken economic system yet see no alternative. It will limp on and on until the masses realise they are the mugs in this game. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:06 - Aug 4 with 3120 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:51 - Aug 4 by nodge_blue |
Not sure those right wing thugs were particularly worried about the economy.
But bottom line is debt is huge. We cant afford any more pandemics etc. But as i understand it the debt to GDP ratio is no higher than it was at the end of the second war world. So we need to be careful not to catastrophrise and just be careful with our public spending. |
Careful implies austerity. We bounced back from WWII with some progressive and creative economic thinking, which seems severely lacking now. The people in charge of the UK’s economy all seem like clones these days. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:21 - Aug 4 with 3056 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:22 - Aug 4 by Guthrum |
The fall of the Roman Empire* was largely down to repeated debasement of the coinage, causing an economic crisis, coupled with endemic civil war between rival claimants to the imperial throne. The Vandals seizing North Africa was a major disaster, being the region which provided a lot of the food and manpower for the Western Empire. The decision to defend at the frontier, absorbing the client buffer states beyond it (in the search for military glory) also overstrained the military.
The major issue in the West currently is that human labour has become too expensive to compete with places like China, while needing to support a large and ageing population. Taxation is so unpopular it is impossible to raise sufficient funds to cover adequate outgoings. The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower. Governments can also borrow money relatively easily (if, perhaps not cheaply) to cover interest and bond repayments.
* Strictly speaking, the Western Roman Empire being partially fragmented and taken over by Germanic/Gothic groups, many of whom saw themselves as direct successors to it. |
“The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower”.
Not strictly true to say they are irrelevant. If a default looks imminent, a restructuring can be agreed - however these are usually very painful to the debtor with strict provisions regarding finances. In a default a borrower might look to the IMF for emergency funds which will come with all kinds of strict caveats on spending (a la austerity on steroids). Further borrowing becomes very difficult if you get anywhere near a junk rating. Ironically the closest major western economy to defaulting in the last couple of years is the US. Whilst they’ve experienced rapid growth, the economic stimulus from Biden’s infrastructure package almost created a financial catastrophe last year. Most of the debt is held by institutional investors, and the contagion would be a disaster. [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 13:35]
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:27 - Aug 4 with 3007 views | leitrimblue |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:22 - Aug 4 by Guthrum |
The fall of the Roman Empire* was largely down to repeated debasement of the coinage, causing an economic crisis, coupled with endemic civil war between rival claimants to the imperial throne. The Vandals seizing North Africa was a major disaster, being the region which provided a lot of the food and manpower for the Western Empire. The decision to defend at the frontier, absorbing the client buffer states beyond it (in the search for military glory) also overstrained the military.
The major issue in the West currently is that human labour has become too expensive to compete with places like China, while needing to support a large and ageing population. Taxation is so unpopular it is impossible to raise sufficient funds to cover adequate outgoings. The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower. Governments can also borrow money relatively easily (if, perhaps not cheaply) to cover interest and bond repayments.
* Strictly speaking, the Western Roman Empire being partially fragmented and taken over by Germanic/Gothic groups, many of whom saw themselves as direct successors to it. |
Wasn't it also in connected to the rise of Christianity in some way?
Wealthy Romans who had previously left a share of their wealth to the Roman state on their deathbed now choosing to leave it to the church? |  | | |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:30 - Aug 4 with 2980 views | lowhouseblue |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:22 - Aug 4 by Guthrum |
The fall of the Roman Empire* was largely down to repeated debasement of the coinage, causing an economic crisis, coupled with endemic civil war between rival claimants to the imperial throne. The Vandals seizing North Africa was a major disaster, being the region which provided a lot of the food and manpower for the Western Empire. The decision to defend at the frontier, absorbing the client buffer states beyond it (in the search for military glory) also overstrained the military.
The major issue in the West currently is that human labour has become too expensive to compete with places like China, while needing to support a large and ageing population. Taxation is so unpopular it is impossible to raise sufficient funds to cover adequate outgoings. The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower. Governments can also borrow money relatively easily (if, perhaps not cheaply) to cover interest and bond repayments.
* Strictly speaking, the Western Roman Empire being partially fragmented and taken over by Germanic/Gothic groups, many of whom saw themselves as direct successors to it. |
"Governments can also borrow money relatively easily (if, perhaps not cheaply) to cover interest and bond repayments."
does that sound sustainable to you? borrowing to meet interest payments on top of borrowing to meet current expenditure with the cost of borrowing rising with the volume of borrowing. how long do you give it? [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 12:35]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:47 - Aug 4 with 2892 views | OldFart71 |
We have never had the right balance between those that run Company's and the Unions. Our motor manufacturing was destroyed by Unions but over the last maybe 30 years the bosses have had the upper hand and boy have they made the most of it. Whilst denying workers decent pay rises they have gorged themselves on huge bonuses, shares and pay running in to millions. As for the far right they haven't needed much of an excuse to run riot. But this has spread throughout Europe. Brought about partly by the ineptitude and procrastination of Governments. Many people who are not racist are very concerned with the lack of progress in preventing illegal immigration and also the slowness of the process of processing those that are in hotels or wherever. I know there is deep resentment by pensioners of the cutting of the winter fuel payment and whilst the two things cannot be directly linked there's no doubt that if money goes somewhere then it has to be made up by cutting somewhere else in view of the financial situation of this Country. Our precarious state is partly brought about by the absolute waste during the pandemic on PPE, Track and Trace and a furlough scheme that although saved thousands of jobs was misused by some Company's. | | | |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 13:14 - Aug 4 with 2823 views | NthQldITFC |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:51 - Aug 4 by nodge_blue |
Not sure those right wing thugs were particularly worried about the economy.
But bottom line is debt is huge. We cant afford any more pandemics etc. But as i understand it the debt to GDP ratio is no higher than it was at the end of the second war world. So we need to be careful not to catastrophrise and just be careful with our public spending. |
Speaking of pandemics, H5N1 sounds like it's well into fancying mammals now, not just the poor old dickie birds.
Sounds all doom and gloom, but it's inevitable that we get hit with another pandemic isn't it? Which is why we need to be ready for it for everyone's sake; even the rich will die! But if the rich unclench their buttocks and choose to invest some of their capital into 'society' (sorry) in general we can be ready for things like pandemics and we can go a long way towards avoiding social breakdown through education and providing a decent basic living to the disenfranchised.
Hard line capitalism as a religion seems like a sort of suicidal insanity to me, the greed and direct self-interest drivers are just ego ticklers for the fundamentally insecure, when the whole of the future is at stake. | |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 13:43 - Aug 4 with 2740 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:51 - Aug 4 by nodge_blue |
Not sure those right wing thugs were particularly worried about the economy.
But bottom line is debt is huge. We cant afford any more pandemics etc. But as i understand it the debt to GDP ratio is no higher than it was at the end of the second war world. So we need to be careful not to catastrophrise and just be careful with our public spending. |
Agreed - we are largely through the cost of living crisis, and inflation pretty much tamed. I think conflating this with the economy is letting hate mongers off the hook slightly. We had major economic recessions in the early 90’s and the GFC with most people able to not start race riots *.
This seems to be a social media-led far right resurgence. They’ve been emboldened being able to spread unimpeded hate on these platforms, as well as rhetoric from politicians. I suspect you wouldn’t have to dig to deep to find Russian involvement (bots/trolls), these are the kind of hybrid warfare tactics they look to deploy in order to spread social unrest in the West. Unfortunately some people are simple enough to fall for it hook, line…
*in fact the reason we’ve been able to attract so many immigrants is the standard of living in this country versus most of the rest of the world. [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 13:56]
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:03 - Aug 4 with 2670 views | ibbleobble |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 11:06 - Aug 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I'll forgive your tabloid use of the word @narchy a d add that the reset needs to be global. |
The reset will only happen when everyone is on the brink, including the 1%, even then a reset will be weighted. What will the brink be? Starvation due to uncontrollable mass consumption would be my bet - something ironic and apocalyptic. | | | |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:08 - Aug 4 with 2651 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:21 - Aug 4 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower”.
Not strictly true to say they are irrelevant. If a default looks imminent, a restructuring can be agreed - however these are usually very painful to the debtor with strict provisions regarding finances. In a default a borrower might look to the IMF for emergency funds which will come with all kinds of strict caveats on spending (a la austerity on steroids). Further borrowing becomes very difficult if you get anywhere near a junk rating. Ironically the closest major western economy to defaulting in the last couple of years is the US. Whilst they’ve experienced rapid growth, the economic stimulus from Biden’s infrastructure package almost created a financial catastrophe last year. Most of the debt is held by institutional investors, and the contagion would be a disaster. [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 13:35]
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Nah feck'em. Mass global default followed by a reset, what can they do. Cry me a river, it's in the planet's and our interests for those without skin in the game!
Oh, but more stuff or something. | |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:21 - Aug 4 with 2588 views | Guthrum |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:30 - Aug 4 by lowhouseblue |
"Governments can also borrow money relatively easily (if, perhaps not cheaply) to cover interest and bond repayments."
does that sound sustainable to you? borrowing to meet interest payments on top of borrowing to meet current expenditure with the cost of borrowing rising with the volume of borrowing. how long do you give it? [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 12:35]
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They've been doing it for many decades now.
The medieval English economy generally existed on borrowing to re-fill the creaking exchequer (taxation being even more contentious than it is today). A lot of those loans never being repaid, but - at best - converted into monopolies on certain products, swapped for honours and titles, or exchanged for civic privileges. A system which functioned for hundreds of years until the monarch stopped giving the concessions those bearing the burden wanted. | |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:23 - Aug 4 with 2572 views | cbower |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:08 - Aug 4 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Nah feck'em. Mass global default followed by a reset, what can they do. Cry me a river, it's in the planet's and our interests for those without skin in the game!
Oh, but more stuff or something. |
The most recent opportunity for some sort of 'reset' came with the financial crisis of 2008. Unfortunately, Brown and his ilk elected to 'save' the international financial system by bail outs instead of insisting on radical reform for the longer term betterment of us all. And you know what, many lauded him and his compatriots for what they did. | |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:25 - Aug 4 with 2559 views | Guthrum |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:21 - Aug 4 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“The debts themselves are largely irrelevant, given institutions will bend over backwards not to make large nations default, as they know it would be them taking the pain, not the borrower”.
Not strictly true to say they are irrelevant. If a default looks imminent, a restructuring can be agreed - however these are usually very painful to the debtor with strict provisions regarding finances. In a default a borrower might look to the IMF for emergency funds which will come with all kinds of strict caveats on spending (a la austerity on steroids). Further borrowing becomes very difficult if you get anywhere near a junk rating. Ironically the closest major western economy to defaulting in the last couple of years is the US. Whilst they’ve experienced rapid growth, the economic stimulus from Biden’s infrastructure package almost created a financial catastrophe last year. Most of the debt is held by institutional investors, and the contagion would be a disaster. [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 13:35]
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That is true for economically less powerful nations (e.g. Argentina, Greece). However, somebody the size of the US - or the UK - going down would do severe damage to the global financial system. Investors would do everything in their power to avoid it. | |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:31 - Aug 4 with 2518 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:25 - Aug 4 by Guthrum |
That is true for economically less powerful nations (e.g. Argentina, Greece). However, somebody the size of the US - or the UK - going down would do severe damage to the global financial system. Investors would do everything in their power to avoid it. |
That’s what I said re contagion - but you inferred sovereign debt restructuring agreements are more painful for the creditor. That’s not true, and any restructuring would entail severe caveats re spending cuts (large economy or otherwise), that’s how they work. | | | |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 14:35 - Aug 4 with 2491 views | Guthrum |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:27 - Aug 4 by leitrimblue |
Wasn't it also in connected to the rise of Christianity in some way?
Wealthy Romans who had previously left a share of their wealth to the Roman state on their deathbed now choosing to leave it to the church? |
Church and state were heavily intertwined, in an administrative sense, so I'm not convinced that would have made much difference. It was more of a drain on Early Medieval European finances, where the church had become an international organisation unto itself, very difficult to raise revenue from by taxation (required special circumstances and permissions).
Late Roman taxation was more affected by money hoarding, as issues of coinage became intrinsically less valuable. Also tax revenue being squandered on troops and barbarian mercenaries to fight rival claimants and pay the armies off if successful. | |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 16:05 - Aug 4 with 2330 views | baxterbasics |
You're not even going to get agreement from anyone over the definition of 'fair' nevermind figure out a way to implement it. |  |
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 16:25 - Aug 4 with 2289 views | EdwardStone |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 12:47 - Aug 4 by OldFart71 |
We have never had the right balance between those that run Company's and the Unions. Our motor manufacturing was destroyed by Unions but over the last maybe 30 years the bosses have had the upper hand and boy have they made the most of it. Whilst denying workers decent pay rises they have gorged themselves on huge bonuses, shares and pay running in to millions. As for the far right they haven't needed much of an excuse to run riot. But this has spread throughout Europe. Brought about partly by the ineptitude and procrastination of Governments. Many people who are not racist are very concerned with the lack of progress in preventing illegal immigration and also the slowness of the process of processing those that are in hotels or wherever. I know there is deep resentment by pensioners of the cutting of the winter fuel payment and whilst the two things cannot be directly linked there's no doubt that if money goes somewhere then it has to be made up by cutting somewhere else in view of the financial situation of this Country. Our precarious state is partly brought about by the absolute waste during the pandemic on PPE, Track and Trace and a furlough scheme that although saved thousands of jobs was misused by some Company's. |
I would strongly disagree with your statement that the demise of motor manufacturing is the sole fault of the Unions
It was a tragic mix of complacent and inept management coupled with insane Unions ...
I have read a bit about the British motorcycle industry that in the 1950s was booming, plenty of employment, massive overseas sales. At one point 3 in every 5 motorbikes in the World were made in Britain and 2 of those were BSAs.... these were good motorbikes for their time, but management ssaw no reason to invest in the next generation of designs. We had very talented designers and engineers putting forward all manner of forward-thinking bikes, but management just couldn't see the point of any change; they just persevered with the same old same old....maybe a new paint scheme or a slightly higher tuned motor, but no innovation.
By the 1970s the motorcycle industry was on its knees and by the start of the 80s it had ceased to exist.
There are parallels with the car companies, complacency and confrontation ruled the day, innovation and co-operation had to wait until 1986 Nissan rocked up in Sunderland .
If there were a plethora of well-paid, secure, unskilled/semi-skilled jobs with a good promotion structure and a sense of worth then I doubt that there would be so many disenfranchised working age males creating mayhem [Post edited 4 Aug 2024 16:40]
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| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 16:32 - Aug 4 with 2256 views | NthQldITFC |
| Britain needs a big reset to a fair economic system if it wants to avoid anarchy on 16:05 - Aug 4 by baxterbasics |
You're not even going to get agreement from anyone over the definition of 'fair' nevermind figure out a way to implement it. |
That's the thing - people are always digging in and arguing about details before even accepting that there's a fundamental problem which needs fixing, and everyone is going to have to accept that things are going to need to change. More of the same terminal decline then. | |
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