| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:33 - May 20 with 2992 views | WD19 |
Candidate in what sense? |  | |  |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:35 - May 20 with 2984 views | J2BLUE |
No idea what the 2012 thing is about. That was a special event. This is one man coming out with poorly worded rubbish. |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:41 - May 20 with 2955 views | Lazymidfielder |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:33 - May 20 by WD19 |
Candidate in what sense? |
I dont think that its a surprise that there are obnoxious people and idiots involved in parochial local politics.
There is a degree of uncomfortable truth behind what he says, even though what he is reported to have said (and we should note the lack of context...) is objectionable.
Care for very disabled children is very expensive, and in some cases simply prolongs the agony for all in circumstances where the child really has very little understanding of the world or its family. As a society we say "we don't care about that- we are still going to provide that care because its the right thing to do". Logically, there is a discussion to be had about apportionment of finite resources that none of us really want to consider. |  | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:41 - May 20 with 2950 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:35 - May 20 by J2BLUE |
No idea what the 2012 thing is about. That was a special event. This is one man coming out with poorly worded rubbish. |
Cameron et al loved the Paralympians and were very happy to bask in the Golden glow.
It didn't take them very long to introduce a punitive new regime to replace DLA with PIP, and a presumption of ineligibility built into the process.
Read what he said: this isn't "poorly worded rubbish" he genuinely thinks disabled children should be killed because they are too expensive. He clarified that in his comments afterwards. This isn't a mis-speak. He values human beings by their potential for economic contribution and he wants disabled children killed because it is more economically efficient than caring for them. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:43 - May 20 with 2942 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Glassers definitely wouldn't flag this up if it came from a Labour equivalent !! |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:45 - May 20 with 2926 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:33 - May 20 by WD19 |
Candidate in what sense? |
He was an elected Tory Councillor, hence I called hi m a Tory politician, and then said that Tory candidates (in the upcoming General Election) may not say this but judge them on their party's actions, with links to articles about PIP interviews planting the suggestion to people that they commit suicide. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:45 - May 20 with 2920 views | Lazymidfielder |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:41 - May 20 by connorscontract |
Cameron et al loved the Paralympians and were very happy to bask in the Golden glow.
It didn't take them very long to introduce a punitive new regime to replace DLA with PIP, and a presumption of ineligibility built into the process.
Read what he said: this isn't "poorly worded rubbish" he genuinely thinks disabled children should be killed because they are too expensive. He clarified that in his comments afterwards. This isn't a mis-speak. He values human beings by their potential for economic contribution and he wants disabled children killed because it is more economically efficient than caring for them. |
Like I said- idiots in parochial politics is no surprise to anyone.
I very much doubt he would actually put into place such a policy had he the power, but it was a stupid and offensive thing to say.
The benefits thing is another issue entirely. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:45 - May 20 with 2904 views | Lord_Lucan |
Lister, Hister, Hitler
Arf
He didn't even suggest a lethal injection, Oh no, straight out with the guillotine.
This country! |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:50 - May 20 with 2897 views | Ryorry |
As you said, the first link is re a complete oddball who immediately resigned.
Contrary to what is generally thought about the PIPs assessment, although the ATOS reps have a standard list of questions to ask about relevant aspects of health/ability/disability, they also have some individual discretion in what they ask, and how they interpret and score the answers.
I was particularly lucky in being assessed by a very sympatico ex-nurse, who visited me at home. She even asked me about, and scored me favourably on, something I'd not mentioned on the (43pp!) form - arthritis & painful joints in my hands - she commented on their being swollen, something I'd never even noticed!
That's to set the record straight - I accept the majority might well be horrendously different, esp if carried out in a city centre office - I've heard some of the horror stories like everyone else. |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:51 - May 20 with 2889 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:41 - May 20 by Lazymidfielder |
I dont think that its a surprise that there are obnoxious people and idiots involved in parochial local politics.
There is a degree of uncomfortable truth behind what he says, even though what he is reported to have said (and we should note the lack of context...) is objectionable.
Care for very disabled children is very expensive, and in some cases simply prolongs the agony for all in circumstances where the child really has very little understanding of the world or its family. As a society we say "we don't care about that- we are still going to provide that care because its the right thing to do". Logically, there is a discussion to be had about apportionment of finite resources that none of us really want to consider. |
The context is clear if you read the article: it was in a Council committee meeting. And he subsequently clarified his position and in no way recanted.
There is a debate to be had about the deployment of finite resources, but at the point that it becomes seen as better to execute disabled children than put a penny on income tax, I'd want to get off the world. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:56 - May 20 with 2874 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:50 - May 20 by Ryorry |
As you said, the first link is re a complete oddball who immediately resigned.
Contrary to what is generally thought about the PIPs assessment, although the ATOS reps have a standard list of questions to ask about relevant aspects of health/ability/disability, they also have some individual discretion in what they ask, and how they interpret and score the answers.
I was particularly lucky in being assessed by a very sympatico ex-nurse, who visited me at home. She even asked me about, and scored me favourably on, something I'd not mentioned on the (43pp!) form - arthritis & painful joints in my hands - she commented on their being swollen, something I'd never even noticed!
That's to set the record straight - I accept the majority might well be horrendously different, esp if carried out in a city centre office - I've heard some of the horror stories like everyone else. |
Of course there are some decent human beings working in the Benefits system who have had to implement these new policies, and try to do so as sensitively and fairly as they can.
I'm talking about the policy, with it's presumption of guilt, and the Tory party behind it.
For example, do you think it is reasonable to make someone with debilitating arthritis in their hands fill out a 43 page form?
Get angry, Ryorry! [Post edited 20 May 2017 17:05]
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:56 - May 20 with 2867 views | Lazymidfielder |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:50 - May 20 by Ryorry |
As you said, the first link is re a complete oddball who immediately resigned.
Contrary to what is generally thought about the PIPs assessment, although the ATOS reps have a standard list of questions to ask about relevant aspects of health/ability/disability, they also have some individual discretion in what they ask, and how they interpret and score the answers.
I was particularly lucky in being assessed by a very sympatico ex-nurse, who visited me at home. She even asked me about, and scored me favourably on, something I'd not mentioned on the (43pp!) form - arthritis & painful joints in my hands - she commented on their being swollen, something I'd never even noticed!
That's to set the record straight - I accept the majority might well be horrendously different, esp if carried out in a city centre office - I've heard some of the horror stories like everyone else. |
It may be, of course, that the bad cases are highlighted more... | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:59 - May 20 with 2849 views | Ryorry |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:56 - May 20 by connorscontract |
Of course there are some decent human beings working in the Benefits system who have had to implement these new policies, and try to do so as sensitively and fairly as they can.
I'm talking about the policy, with it's presumption of guilt, and the Tory party behind it.
For example, do you think it is reasonable to make someone with debilitating arthritis in their hands fill out a 43 page form?
Get angry, Ryorry! [Post edited 20 May 2017 17:05]
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You've no need to encourage me, I already was! | |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:03 - May 20 with 2841 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:45 - May 20 by Lazymidfielder |
Like I said- idiots in parochial politics is no surprise to anyone.
I very much doubt he would actually put into place such a policy had he the power, but it was a stupid and offensive thing to say.
The benefits thing is another issue entirely. |
How is it another issue entirely? The way Cameron introduced the austerity reforms made concrete an approach to policy that weighs every decision simply on cost, values people only on their economic value (see discussions on non-vocational Higher Education funding, for example) and comes to view some in society as a drain. It is this change in approach and language which ultimately creates the environment in which views such as these can be held.
It's not just one insignificant loud-mouth, it's symptomatic of a change in attitudes towards and discourse around the disabled. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:14 - May 20 with 2808 views | WD19 |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:45 - May 20 by connorscontract |
He was an elected Tory Councillor, hence I called hi m a Tory politician, and then said that Tory candidates (in the upcoming General Election) may not say this but judge them on their party's actions, with links to articles about PIP interviews planting the suggestion to people that they commit suicide. |
Poor form. Even by the low standards set in here recently.
'It's ok because x and y do it all the time doesn't really cut it either.' | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:15 - May 20 with 2806 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:03 - May 20 by connorscontract |
How is it another issue entirely? The way Cameron introduced the austerity reforms made concrete an approach to policy that weighs every decision simply on cost, values people only on their economic value (see discussions on non-vocational Higher Education funding, for example) and comes to view some in society as a drain. It is this change in approach and language which ultimately creates the environment in which views such as these can be held.
It's not just one insignificant loud-mouth, it's symptomatic of a change in attitudes towards and discourse around the disabled. |
The Conservative party is looking to attract votes from what they call the mainstream. That doesn't include the disabled. |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:28 - May 20 with 2776 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:14 - May 20 by WD19 |
Poor form. Even by the low standards set in here recently.
'It's ok because x and y do it all the time doesn't really cut it either.' |
1) a reasonably senior and experienced Tory Councillor said this. Someone who the local Tory party had selected as their representative.
2) I'm arguing that it is a logical extension of a discourse around benefits that judges people by their economic value, which Cameron set in train.
3) Cameron, and particularly Johnson, weren't shy in embracing the Paralympics for reflected glory.
4) The implementation of PIP's has had a huge strain on some of the most vulnerable members of our society.
I don't think it is unreasonable to draw these threads together, and am happy to discuss or debate them. Do you want to argue with any of those propositions? That's how political debate works, and is important during an Election. Attempting to close the debate down by calling it "poor form" or "low standards" is a bit weak.
And I don't do the "x and y" thing. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:31 - May 20 with 2770 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:14 - May 20 by WD19 |
Poor form. Even by the low standards set in here recently.
'It's ok because x and y do it all the time doesn't really cut it either.' |
His general views (not this specific comment) don't seem to far from the UKIP side of the Tories to be fair. This to55er has a history of mouthing off about immigrants and the EU, etc.
Old news though. |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:31 - May 20 with 2769 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:15 - May 20 by Pinewoodblue |
The Conservative party is looking to attract votes from what they call the mainstream. That doesn't include the disabled. |
Sad, but true... | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:38 - May 20 with 2751 views | WD19 |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:28 - May 20 by connorscontract |
1) a reasonably senior and experienced Tory Councillor said this. Someone who the local Tory party had selected as their representative.
2) I'm arguing that it is a logical extension of a discourse around benefits that judges people by their economic value, which Cameron set in train.
3) Cameron, and particularly Johnson, weren't shy in embracing the Paralympics for reflected glory.
4) The implementation of PIP's has had a huge strain on some of the most vulnerable members of our society.
I don't think it is unreasonable to draw these threads together, and am happy to discuss or debate them. Do you want to argue with any of those propositions? That's how political debate works, and is important during an Election. Attempting to close the debate down by calling it "poor form" or "low standards" is a bit weak.
And I don't do the "x and y" thing. |
That numpties exist within the c.50% of the population that currently align themselves with the Tories I do not doubt. Attempting to suggest that those who bathed in the reflected glory of 2012 now want disabled ppl killed is not an attempt at debating anything. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:49 - May 20 with 2731 views | connorscontract |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:38 - May 20 by WD19 |
That numpties exist within the c.50% of the population that currently align themselves with the Tories I do not doubt. Attempting to suggest that those who bathed in the reflected glory of 2012 now want disabled ppl killed is not an attempt at debating anything. |
I didn't say that Cameron wanted disabled people killed, I'm arguing that the way PIP's was implemented, by his Government, changed attitudes towards disability to suspicion of malingering and presumption of lack of entitlement.
This is a symptom of a larger shift in attitude to viewing people as being only of worth if they are economically of worth.
That creates the environment in which a particular Tory representative said these things about disabled children. He reduces them purely to how much they cost and deems them not worth it. It is the logical last step of the philosophy behind (the ideology under-pinning, and language used in the promotion of) Austerity. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:55 - May 20 with 2712 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:43 - May 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Glassers definitely wouldn't flag this up if it came from a Labour equivalent !! |
Indeed I would and Connor has done a service by highlighting this man's appalling words. If he is still a member of the party I would happen his membership is immediately cancelled. |  |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 18:48 - May 20 with 2656 views | HARRY10 |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:55 - May 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed I would and Connor has done a service by highlighting this man's appalling words. If he is still a member of the party I would happen his membership is immediately cancelled. |
I wonder why he felt it ok to say it in public. Or was he just expressing sentiments that were acceptable away from a council meeting
I would be careful GB about being so quick to expel fellow Tories, as you soon won't have many left if this is the benchmark to judge them by.
The irony here being if there wasn't all this 'political correctness gone mad' stuff then these remarks and other similar comments would have passed by with no notice being taken of any comments about them. | | | |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 18:53 - May 20 with 2647 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 17:55 - May 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed I would and Connor has done a service by highlighting this man's appalling words. If he is still a member of the party I would happen his membership is immediately cancelled. |
Is that olde Englishe or just auto correct prey tell good sir ? | |
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| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 21:55 - May 20 with 2584 views | factual_blue |
| Summer 2012: aren't disabled people inspiring! on 16:50 - May 20 by Ryorry |
As you said, the first link is re a complete oddball who immediately resigned.
Contrary to what is generally thought about the PIPs assessment, although the ATOS reps have a standard list of questions to ask about relevant aspects of health/ability/disability, they also have some individual discretion in what they ask, and how they interpret and score the answers.
I was particularly lucky in being assessed by a very sympatico ex-nurse, who visited me at home. She even asked me about, and scored me favourably on, something I'd not mentioned on the (43pp!) form - arthritis & painful joints in my hands - she commented on their being swollen, something I'd never even noticed!
That's to set the record straight - I accept the majority might well be horrendously different, esp if carried out in a city centre office - I've heard some of the horror stories like everyone else. |
There may have been some self-interest at work there. Musculo-skeletal conditions mean you have to be referred to a doctor for assessment. The nurses ATOS use, faced with horrendous workloads and pressure from their employer to clear cases, use that (and I'm sure other) dodges to shift their work to somebody else. Although, from what you've described, that doesn't seem to be the case.
ATOS have in the past performed abysmally. Not helped by the fact that IDS was warned off by the Dept of Health from poaching healthcare professionals from the NHS to staff the assessment process.
The whole thing is an utter, utter mess as a policy, in the way it's carried out, and financially. |  |
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