| Most overrated historical icon 08:46 - Jun 1 with 7299 views | MattinLondon |
Does anyone feel that any historical icons are totally overrated and should be downplayed?
For me it’s Richard The Lionheart. He was cruel - even by his days standards, spoke little English, didn’t like England, cost the country a lot of money and was an all round arse. |  | | |  |
| Most overrated historical icon on 08:49 - Jun 1 with 5451 views | factual_blue |
It's harder to think of those who shouldn't be downplayed. |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 08:54 - Jun 1 with 5421 views | lowhouseblue |
and that robin hood. never convinced by him either. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 08:54 - Jun 1 with 5418 views | wkj |
didn’t like England, cost the country a lot of money and was an all round arse.
I could name so many politicians here, but im not sure if you're ready for a 10 pager yet |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:02 - Jun 1 with 5394 views | uefacup81 |
Churchill |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:10 - Jun 1 with 5364 views | Keno |
| Most overrated historical icon on 08:54 - Jun 1 by lowhouseblue |
and that robin hood. never convinced by him either. |
is he Tim Sherwoods assistant? |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:10 - Jun 1 with 5365 views | Betablocker |
Charles Dickens- smultzy
Nah only joking I would say
Queen Victoria - was fortunate to live in the age of invention like never before was also a wicked mother |  | | |
| Most overrated historical icon on 09:13 - Jun 1 with 5348 views | StuartBrett8 |
John Lennon, while he made some cool songs he was a terrible person |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:15 - Jun 1 with 5333 views | tcblue |
So many to choose from, but for some reason - possibly because he's on his last legs, thank God - Kissinger was my first thought. | | | |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:15 - Jun 1 with 5331 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Most overrated historical icon on 09:10 - Jun 1 by Keno |
is he Tim Sherwoods assistant? |
Don’t memtion Sherwood - it sends him into all of a quiver |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:21 - Jun 1 with 5315 views | Mullet |
What do you mean by downplayed though?
If anything that's worse and you end up with the Disneyfication of these people. It's better people understand he was basically French and played the system, and to know what a cock he was isn't it?
The answer is of course Jeremy Goss. |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:21 - Jun 1 with 5315 views | Tempus_Fugit |
Atlee. Prolonged rationing long after the war, nicked the idea for the NHS off Churchill, brought nuclear weapons to the UK and intensified the economic exploitation of the colonies in the last days of the empire whilst waging bloody colonial wars to supress independence in the Gold Coast, Nigeria and Iran and Malaya. [Post edited 1 Jun 2018 9:23]
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:26 - Jun 1 with 5300 views | Guthrum |
In terms of cruelty, he was not notably worse than most of his contemporaries - the main incident being the massacre at Acre. When you compare him with someone like William I or Henry VIII (or even Louis XIV of France), he was quite mild. At least he didn't end up with the epithet "the Cruel", that being Pedro of Castile.
He spent most of his reign fighting against incursions upon English territory (in Normandy and Anjou). Plus promoting England in European diplomacy (the 3rd Crusade). Being kidnapped and held for an extortionate ransom due to someone's hurt pride wasn't entirely his fault.
Richard's worst trait was his treachery and constant rebellion before he inherited the throne. The trouble from which (along with a surfeit of lamphreys) eventually killed his father. |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:44 - Jun 1 with 5253 views | Guthrum |
| Most overrated historical icon on 08:49 - Jun 1 by factual_blue |
It's harder to think of those who shouldn't be downplayed. |
For me, it's more the case that all historically significant people were complex, often deeply flawed characters.
The problem having been that historians before the mid 20th century dealt very much in broad brush, "good or bad" absolutes, raising or lowering historical personalities to suit contemporary agendas.
A good example being the fall and rise of Oliver Cromwell. Reviled as a king-killer in the monarchical period following the Restoration, the increasing dominance of Parliament led to an up-swing in his reputation and a statue at Westminster (this despite the fact he'd closed down that organisation as well as beheading Charles I - in both cases because of their treachery and persistant stirring up of conflict).
Also the limitations of sources. King John got a very bad press because it was written by monks, who were partisans of the other side in his struggle with the Papacy. Charles I was painted whiter than white by historians writing after his execution, during the reign of his son, with all the surviving Commonwealth people changing their coats, lying very low or having fled abroad. | |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:54 - Jun 1 with 5219 views | Kitman |
None of the three King Richards have a great reputation, but I would class the 1st as being the best of a dire trio. English as we know it hadn't evolved then and all the aristocracy and royalty spoke Norman French anyway.. |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:55 - Jun 1 with 5207 views | Kitman |
| Most overrated historical icon on 09:26 - Jun 1 by Guthrum |
In terms of cruelty, he was not notably worse than most of his contemporaries - the main incident being the massacre at Acre. When you compare him with someone like William I or Henry VIII (or even Louis XIV of France), he was quite mild. At least he didn't end up with the epithet "the Cruel", that being Pedro of Castile.
He spent most of his reign fighting against incursions upon English territory (in Normandy and Anjou). Plus promoting England in European diplomacy (the 3rd Crusade). Being kidnapped and held for an extortionate ransom due to someone's hurt pride wasn't entirely his fault.
Richard's worst trait was his treachery and constant rebellion before he inherited the throne. The trouble from which (along with a surfeit of lamphreys) eventually killed his father. |
That a good summing up Guthrum.. | |
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| Facters (n/t) on 09:56 - Jun 1 with 5204 views | Dyland |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 09:58 - Jun 1 with 5193 views | Guthrum |
| Most overrated historical icon on 09:02 - Jun 1 by uefacup81 |
Churchill |
The odd thing about Churchill is that many of the things which have been held against him were good ideas poorly executed on the ground (the Dardanelles/Gallipoli campaign), or didn't really happen (shooting miners in South Wales, for which there appears to be no evidence).
Whereas, apart from public leadership in the summer of 1940 and his ability to pick and (eventually, after much argument) listen to able subordinates, he was not a particularly good Prime Minister. Especially during his oft-forgotten second spell (1951-55), when he was not really in good enough health to cope.
He wasn't by any means the only voice calling for rearmament in the mid 1930s, tho was the most senior in terms of previous ministerial roles. | |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 10:00 - Jun 1 with 5180 views | jpring89 |
Jesus | |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 10:03 - Jun 1 with 5173 views | Mullet |
| Most overrated historical icon on 09:58 - Jun 1 by Guthrum |
The odd thing about Churchill is that many of the things which have been held against him were good ideas poorly executed on the ground (the Dardanelles/Gallipoli campaign), or didn't really happen (shooting miners in South Wales, for which there appears to be no evidence).
Whereas, apart from public leadership in the summer of 1940 and his ability to pick and (eventually, after much argument) listen to able subordinates, he was not a particularly good Prime Minister. Especially during his oft-forgotten second spell (1951-55), when he was not really in good enough health to cope.
He wasn't by any means the only voice calling for rearmament in the mid 1930s, tho was the most senior in terms of previous ministerial roles. |
India did him wasn't it? Hence the gap in no.10.
Always find it odd when people like to portray him as racist/sexist etc. but take no account of the times either way. He clearly wouldn't have been a success if he wasn't a bit of a shift bastard when needed would he? | |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 10:05 - Jun 1 with 5162 views | Guthrum |
| Most overrated historical icon on 09:54 - Jun 1 by Kitman |
None of the three King Richards have a great reputation, but I would class the 1st as being the best of a dire trio. English as we know it hadn't evolved then and all the aristocracy and royalty spoke Norman French anyway.. |
Despite his horendous reputation (much of which was propaganda under the new regime after his overthrow), Richard III was not particularly bad.
Personally don't think he was responsible for the deaths of the (ex-)Princes* in the Tower. Far more likely to have been the Duke of Buckingham, IMO.
* They had actually been declared illegitimate by act of Parliament, thus were not a direct threat to Richard's position. Interestingly, neither of the rebellions/invasions during his reign used them as figureheads. | |
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| Facters (n/t) on 10:07 - Jun 1 with 5158 views | Fixed_It |
| Facters (n/t) on 09:56 - Jun 1 by Dyland |
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I thought this - but was put off by the word 'icon'. |  |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 10:10 - Jun 1 with 5129 views | lowhouseblue |
| Most overrated historical icon on 10:00 - Jun 1 by jpring89 |
Jesus |
there's no need to that critical of the op. it's quite an interesting discussion. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 10:11 - Jun 1 with 5119 views | Kitman |
| Most overrated historical icon on 10:05 - Jun 1 by Guthrum |
Despite his horendous reputation (much of which was propaganda under the new regime after his overthrow), Richard III was not particularly bad.
Personally don't think he was responsible for the deaths of the (ex-)Princes* in the Tower. Far more likely to have been the Duke of Buckingham, IMO.
* They had actually been declared illegitimate by act of Parliament, thus were not a direct threat to Richard's position. Interestingly, neither of the rebellions/invasions during his reign used them as figureheads. |
...yes, he was certainly the target of some nasty Tudor propaganda and as you say, had no real need go out of his way to do away with the Princes. Shakespeare has a lot to answer for and should be joining this bad icon list... | |
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| Most overrated historical icon on 10:12 - Jun 1 with 5116 views | vilanovablue |
Mother Theresa springs to mind... |  | | |
| Most overrated historical icon on 10:15 - Jun 1 with 5110 views | TJS |
Henry V was probably a lot worse than Richard the Lionheart.
Some of his actions against civilians in French villages were not unlike the Nazi's in Eastern Europe in WW2.
I think there was a story that he never felt any guilt until he saw a child trying to suckle from it's dead mother. [Post edited 1 Jun 2018 10:15]
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