| Why aren’t Labour saying this? 21:34 - Jul 16 with 10907 views | itfcjoe |
The opposition to the Government is another Tory MP |  |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:01 - Jul 17 with 2162 views | hype313 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 23:06 - Jul 16 by bournemouthblue |
Much of the Labour Heartland voted to leave so in many ways, Corbyn was more aligned to the grassroots than much of his parliamentary party members
I'm amazed people are blaming Labour for this mess. It was the Tories who gave us this referendum to try and purge UKIP and only fueled the fire
Much of the Brexit crew who sold the voters their impossible dream then ran off and washed their hands with it
It is a total utter mess, who'd have thought this would happen aye? |
It is a Tory mess, they have been at war for 30 years on this issue, however it was exasperated by New Labours open door policy which led to the rise of UKIP.
I actually think both parties really need to split as there are such factions in both sides, as someone else said, Cooper, Ummana, Morgan, Soubry et al should form a party on a pro EU stance and Fargae, Boris JRM et al should form a party on leave, that way the nation will have a proper choice when deciding who goes into power. |  |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:16 - Jul 17 with 2152 views | BlueBadger |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 21:40 - Jul 16 by No9 |
It's been a tory fight since we joined.
That won't change until one side win & the other lose |
They're still the official opposition. If the government is incompetent, misguided or plain wrong then it is their job to OPPOSE.
Not sit on their arses hoping that thin fighting will miraculously fluke them into a GE win at some point. |  |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:23 - Jul 17 with 2138 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 23:20 - Jul 16 by StokieBlue |
Overall Labour voters voted to remain by a significant margin so not sure your first point is true.
I agree it's the Tories fault. Nobody can deny that. They are a total shower and the process has been a shambles.
Corbyn does have to take some responsibility though, he orders his party to abstain in all the votes rather than try and hold the government to account. It's ideological dogma guiding his decision to do this, not grassroot alignment. He shouldn't be absolved when this sorry mess is all said and done, I fear he will be though by those who see what they want to see.
SB [Post edited 16 Jul 2018 23:22]
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Last night only 3 labour MP's voted with the government
"A call to the Dept. Energy should bring advice regarding real technical information but no all one gets is an ‘engaged’ tone."
Did anyone abstain? |  | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:25 - Jul 17 with 2139 views | Archer4721 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:01 - Jul 17 by hype313 |
It is a Tory mess, they have been at war for 30 years on this issue, however it was exasperated by New Labours open door policy which led to the rise of UKIP.
I actually think both parties really need to split as there are such factions in both sides, as someone else said, Cooper, Ummana, Morgan, Soubry et al should form a party on a pro EU stance and Fargae, Boris JRM et al should form a party on leave, that way the nation will have a proper choice when deciding who goes into power. |
You had a party like that to vote for in 2015 under Ed Miliband and people like you still voted Tory. |  | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:32 - Jul 17 with 2130 views | StokieBlue |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:23 - Jul 17 by No9 |
Last night only 3 labour MP's voted with the government
"A call to the Dept. Energy should bring advice regarding real technical information but no all one gets is an ‘engaged’ tone."
Did anyone abstain? |
Does it matter?
Over the past two years they have been ordered to abstain. Your continual refusal to accept this is a bit strange.
SB |  |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:34 - Jul 17 with 2127 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 21:42 - Jul 16 by itfcjoe |
Where are Labour though? |
You would need to watch more than a short BBC / ITV clip to see what goes on in po/litics.
The main chamber is where all the shouting takes place, real government goes on in committee- you have to watch parliament tv to get a real flavour. | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:37 - Jul 17 with 2122 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:32 - Jul 17 by StokieBlue |
Does it matter?
Over the past two years they have been ordered to abstain. Your continual refusal to accept this is a bit strange.
SB |
I'm not refusing to accept anything but, you are more often than not putting an unrealistic or less than accurate on what happens in parliament.
Maynbe you don't understand how parliament works ? You dont seem to accept camerons chnages seriously shackled how any opposition can work.
Homw much parliament TV do you watch? How many committee's have you seen in action? | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:38 - Jul 17 with 2122 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 23:20 - Jul 16 by StokieBlue |
Overall Labour voters voted to remain by a significant margin so not sure your first point is true.
I agree it's the Tories fault. Nobody can deny that. They are a total shower and the process has been a shambles.
Corbyn does have to take some responsibility though, he orders his party to abstain in all the votes rather than try and hold the government to account. It's ideological dogma guiding his decision to do this, not grassroot alignment. He shouldn't be absolved when this sorry mess is all said and done, I fear he will be though by those who see what they want to see.
SB [Post edited 16 Jul 2018 23:22]
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Labour's problem is that their voters were 2-to -1 in favour of Remain, but their MPs were elected by Labour supporters who were 2-1 Leave! | | | |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:41 - Jul 17 with 2110 views | StokieBlue |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:37 - Jul 17 by No9 |
I'm not refusing to accept anything but, you are more often than not putting an unrealistic or less than accurate on what happens in parliament.
Maynbe you don't understand how parliament works ? You dont seem to accept camerons chnages seriously shackled how any opposition can work.
Homw much parliament TV do you watch? How many committee's have you seen in action? |
That's a rather insulting post wouldn't you say? Committees have absolutely nothing to do with votes in the house - no idea why you are even mentioning them except to possibly attempt a red herring argument.
At any point in the last two years Corbyn could have got his MPs to vote against various things, along with the help from the minorities parties and some Tory rebels (of which there would be some - see last night) and could have forced the governments hand on things.
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:41 - Jul 17 with 2105 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:01 - Jul 17 by hype313 |
It is a Tory mess, they have been at war for 30 years on this issue, however it was exasperated by New Labours open door policy which led to the rise of UKIP.
I actually think both parties really need to split as there are such factions in both sides, as someone else said, Cooper, Ummana, Morgan, Soubry et al should form a party on a pro EU stance and Fargae, Boris JRM et al should form a party on leave, that way the nation will have a proper choice when deciding who goes into power. |
Have you actually looked at the EU rules on Free Movement? | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:43 - Jul 17 with 2106 views | hype313 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:41 - Jul 17 by No9 |
Have you actually looked at the EU rules on Free Movement? |
Yes.
Can you tell me the reasons behind UKIP's rise, which has caused this chaos. | |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:45 - Jul 17 with 2104 views | Vic |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 22:16 - Jul 16 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. I hate the sheer politics of it but makes sense. Why do they want the government's problem of having to deal with reality to become theirs? Or even worse that this becomes another pathetic red vs. blue issue?
It would however be nice if someone could stand up and take a hit for what is right. Stand up and tell people that the Leave vote can't be delivered on the terms it sold itself to the electorate on. And so the referendum result and how much of a mandate it currently gives must now be questioned. |
I agree.
I voted leave, and always expected a financial hit at a country.
I’d still like to leave, but must admit that I didn’t expect it to be this hard. Aside from the shambles that is our government and negotiating team the EU are simply unwilling to negotiate; they have no intention or interest and will let us go to the dogs before they budge one bit to help us. But then why would they?
I’d like us to go back to the country saying something like ‘we’ve tried but find we can’t leave in the way we had hoped. It’s the EU’s fault. Now do you still want to leave with nothing or given what we’ve discovered should we stay in.
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:45 - Jul 17 with 2102 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:43 - Jul 17 by hype313 |
Yes.
Can you tell me the reasons behind UKIP's rise, which has caused this chaos. |
Yes I was around in the 50's so I can see how UKip is popular. | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:49 - Jul 17 with 2097 views | Swansea_Blue |
Good on her. She's actually quite impressed me how she's been dealing with this fiasco. Hard line to walk when you're trying to honour the vote but at the same time have an obligation to do what you think is right for your constituents.
Agree entirely on Cheltenham's/Badger's points about the lack of opposition. Sitting it out waiting for the Tories to implode isn't effective opposition. |  |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:53 - Jul 17 with 2091 views | imsureazzure |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 23:06 - Jul 16 by bournemouthblue |
Much of the Labour Heartland voted to leave so in many ways, Corbyn was more aligned to the grassroots than much of his parliamentary party members
I'm amazed people are blaming Labour for this mess. It was the Tories who gave us this referendum to try and purge UKIP and only fueled the fire
Much of the Brexit crew who sold the voters their impossible dream then ran off and washed their hands with it
It is a total utter mess, who'd have thought this would happen aye? |
'Much of the Labour Heartland voted to leave so in many ways, Corbyn was more aligned to the grassroots than much of his parliamentary party members'
Correct, the old labour working class heartlands voted to leave, Wales especially, the modern metropolitan labour voters were the fiercest remainers though, it gets very complicated and hypocritical for the Corbynistas, as usual. |  | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:06 - Jul 17 with 2068 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 09:41 - Jul 17 by StokieBlue |
That's a rather insulting post wouldn't you say? Committees have absolutely nothing to do with votes in the house - no idea why you are even mentioning them except to possibly attempt a red herring argument.
At any point in the last two years Corbyn could have got his MPs to vote against various things, along with the help from the minorities parties and some Tory rebels (of which there would be some - see last night) and could have forced the governments hand on things.
SB |
It isn't insulting at all, just stating the facts. The main chamber is where the votes are cast but many MP's never read the order paper, they vote how the whips tell them too.
On te papers placed in the HoC library about the effects of brexit of the near 700 MP's less than 100 have actually read the papers - is that how it should work?
I am not a Corbyn supporter, I am not a memper of any political party but to blame Corbyn for everything is a cop out
The real business of governemt goes on in committee which is what makes the whipos tell the MP's how to vote.
Watch it sometime - you may get a shock. | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:12 - Jul 17 with 2063 views | StokieBlue |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:06 - Jul 17 by No9 |
It isn't insulting at all, just stating the facts. The main chamber is where the votes are cast but many MP's never read the order paper, they vote how the whips tell them too.
On te papers placed in the HoC library about the effects of brexit of the near 700 MP's less than 100 have actually read the papers - is that how it should work?
I am not a Corbyn supporter, I am not a memper of any political party but to blame Corbyn for everything is a cop out
The real business of governemt goes on in committee which is what makes the whipos tell the MP's how to vote.
Watch it sometime - you may get a shock. |
You've just agreed with my point that the members vote how the whips instruct them.
The whips are instructed by Corbyn so my original point was entirely correct.
Nobody has blamed Corbyn for everything, possibly worth reading the actual posts.
SB [Post edited 17 Jul 2018 10:13]
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:15 - Jul 17 with 2060 views | chicoazul |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 21:42 - Jul 16 by itfcjoe |
Where are Labour though? |
We all know where they are. |  |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:16 - Jul 17 with 2052 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:12 - Jul 17 by StokieBlue |
You've just agreed with my point that the members vote how the whips instruct them.
The whips are instructed by Corbyn so my original point was entirely correct.
Nobody has blamed Corbyn for everything, possibly worth reading the actual posts.
SB [Post edited 17 Jul 2018 10:13]
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As you have been blaming Corbyn for everything for some time now I'm afraid I lost track of where you were going.
I don't know if labout put a 3 line whip on last nights vote do you?
How many whips have labour put on any of these votes ?? | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:19 - Jul 17 with 2049 views | chicoazul |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 22:32 - Jul 16 by jaseitfc |
Because the Labour leadership are more anti EU than May and yet somehow Corbynistas don't see that |
Corbynistas *do* see that. You underestimate them. They know it perfectly well. The Maximum Leader sees the EU as a corporatist protectorate, which it probably is, and feels he cannot enact his Marxist industrial/social policies from within it, which he probably cannot (although Blair felt the opposite). He has felt this way for many many years and been on the record about it. Nobody should be surprised or disappointed at this. | |
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:20 - Jul 17 with 2046 views | StokieBlue |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:16 - Jul 17 by No9 |
As you have been blaming Corbyn for everything for some time now I'm afraid I lost track of where you were going.
I don't know if labout put a 3 line whip on last nights vote do you?
How many whips have labour put on any of these votes ?? |
That's total nonsense.
I haven't blamed Corbyn for everything, I've blamed the shambles that is the Tories. What I have said is Corbyn shoulders some blame for not mounting any form of opposition.
It's incredibly annoying to have ones words twisted. Either you don't read my posts properly or you just decide to write whatever you like.
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:25 - Jul 17 with 2032 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:20 - Jul 17 by StokieBlue |
That's total nonsense.
I haven't blamed Corbyn for everything, I've blamed the shambles that is the Tories. What I have said is Corbyn shoulders some blame for not mounting any form of opposition.
It's incredibly annoying to have ones words twisted. Either you don't read my posts properly or you just decide to write whatever you like.
SB |
I do question the accuracy of many of your posts
You completely ignore the fact that in June a number of labour MP's defied the whips?
You would need to watch committees to see how labour MP's work with or against the government.
To repeat, I am not a Corbyn supporter nor am I a member of any political party.
Just as an aside IF jeremy Corbyn has the power your posts continually imply then he would be the obvious choice as PM given the fact the present incumbent is not competent. | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:31 - Jul 17 with 2020 views | StokieBlue |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:25 - Jul 17 by No9 |
I do question the accuracy of many of your posts
You completely ignore the fact that in June a number of labour MP's defied the whips?
You would need to watch committees to see how labour MP's work with or against the government.
To repeat, I am not a Corbyn supporter nor am I a member of any political party.
Just as an aside IF jeremy Corbyn has the power your posts continually imply then he would be the obvious choice as PM given the fact the present incumbent is not competent. |
"You completely ignore the fact that in June a number of labour MP's defied the whips? "
This is different to what I am saying though isn't it. He still ordered them to abstain thus my point is correct.
"Just as an aside IF jeremy Corbyn has the power your posts continually imply then he would be the obvious choice as PM given the fact the present incumbent is not competent."
Once again this is a misrepesentation. I've not implied he has huge power, I've said he could oppose brexit. I am not sure why this is so confusing.
You can question my posts as much as you like, just don't totally misrepresent them as you seem to want to do.
You seem to think criticism of Corbyn is defence of Tories. That is not the case and it frankly a big issue with many of these posts.
SB [Post edited 17 Jul 2018 10:34]
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| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:38 - Jul 17 with 2012 views | No9 |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:31 - Jul 17 by StokieBlue |
"You completely ignore the fact that in June a number of labour MP's defied the whips? "
This is different to what I am saying though isn't it. He still ordered them to abstain thus my point is correct.
"Just as an aside IF jeremy Corbyn has the power your posts continually imply then he would be the obvious choice as PM given the fact the present incumbent is not competent."
Once again this is a misrepesentation. I've not implied he has huge power, I've said he could oppose brexit. I am not sure why this is so confusing.
You can question my posts as much as you like, just don't totally misrepresent them as you seem to want to do.
You seem to think criticism of Corbyn is defence of Tories. That is not the case and it frankly a big issue with many of these posts.
SB [Post edited 17 Jul 2018 10:34]
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You are overstating the power the leader of any opposiiton party has.
It is now almost impossible for any opposioitn party to brign down the sitting administration. Cameron knew this was coming which is why he changed the rules.
You cannot, either, overlook 'The will of the people' I am interested how any opposiotn party can undo that without another vote -? | | | |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:40 - Jul 17 with 2009 views | StokieBlue |
| Why aren’t Labour saying this? on 10:38 - Jul 17 by No9 |
You are overstating the power the leader of any opposiiton party has.
It is now almost impossible for any opposioitn party to brign down the sitting administration. Cameron knew this was coming which is why he changed the rules.
You cannot, either, overlook 'The will of the people' I am interested how any opposiotn party can undo that without another vote -? |
I've never said he should bring down a sitting administration. What does that have to do with opposing brexit?
All I've said is that if he wanted he could have forced many votes to be much closer over the last two years and possibly won some votes forcing concessions out of the Tories. Nobody mentioned bringing down the government and equating opposing brexit to that seems strange.
You are essentially saying that it's totally pointless to have any opposition party at all.
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