By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
You can disregard my other post - you've answered it here.
So the easy response to that is that we have always been a protectorate of the US as has all of Western Europe. Conventionally we haven't been up there for ages, it's only technological advancement and nukes that keep us near the top.
Are you suggesting the UK army should be a match for a joint EU army?
SB
"Are you suggesting the UK army should be a match for a joint EU army? "
No, why should I suggest anything like that?
If I'm suggesting anything, it's what I've already spelled out quite clearly in this thread: I don't want to be a citizen of protectorate governed by whoever the US decides will be their president, nor do I want to be a minion in a EU superstate where I have no influence whatever over who rules over me.
I've often been described, ignorantly and wrongly as "anti-west". The reality is I don't want American pie or brussels sprouts forced down my throat, I want some say in what I eat and if possible grow it myself. (it's an analogy).
"Are you suggesting the UK army should be a match for a joint EU army? "
No, why should I suggest anything like that?
If I'm suggesting anything, it's what I've already spelled out quite clearly in this thread: I don't want to be a citizen of protectorate governed by whoever the US decides will be their president, nor do I want to be a minion in a EU superstate where I have no influence whatever over who rules over me.
I've often been described, ignorantly and wrongly as "anti-west". The reality is I don't want American pie or brussels sprouts forced down my throat, I want some say in what I eat and if possible grow it myself. (it's an analogy).
Aren't you screwed then given you live in the basque region and that isn't leaving the EU any time soon?
If you don't want the UK army to be a match of the EU army then the UK army is an irrelevance, it will be insignificant in global terms except the nukes and possibly the carriers if they ever get any planes.
Many apologies for not going back and using the exact same words.
However they are essentially the same thing, you are just looking for an out.
For instance, what is the functional difference between "NATO protection" and "NATO defence pacts".
There isn't one.
Do you have evidence that UK troops will be able to be sent to war without UK government approval?
SB
I'm not looking for an out and I'm not splitting hairs.
I think there's a huge difference between being in a pact and "FULL EU army or NATO protection".
"Full" is the key word, and especially so if our own defence has been depleted. It means we are not partners in a pact, it means we are totally defenceless and reliant on someone else to defend us.
There are UK forces in Syria and there have been for years. They're often called "advisors", "special forces" or something obscure and misleading. Parliament has never approved British troops in Syria and the government even denied it for years.
Because we are the second largest of only three net contributing members. No deal means no settlement. No settlement means the EU is insolvent.
The Uk out of the EU is also the EU's largest export market. They have as much to lose as we do. A deal is in both parties interests. But we will only get a dewal if we are serious about walking away. So far the EU has thought we were bluffing.
[Post edited 21 Sep 2018 14:49]
The way things have been going, a duell seems quite an attractive option atm - what weapons would each side pick? I reckon wet fish and rounds of Brie from the French; haunches of beef and rounds of Stilton from us - hurled at 20 paces.
Aren't you screwed then given you live in the basque region and that isn't leaving the EU any time soon?
If you don't want the UK army to be a match of the EU army then the UK army is an irrelevance, it will be insignificant in global terms except the nukes and possibly the carriers if they ever get any planes.
SB
"Aren't you screwed then given you live in the basque region and that isn't leaving the EU any time soon? "
I'm still British and have a strong interest in much of what goes on in the country where most of my family live. However, there are other freedoms I enjoy here which I don't enjoy in Britain.
"If you don't want the UK army to be a match of the EU army" -
FFS, I haven't expressed an opinion on this at all.
This is a real risk here, it would be bad for the UK and the EU, but the reality is that the UK Government (not all businesses) has better prepared for a Crash out/ No deal/Clean Break - than the EU , wonder if this is the end game that could cause the EU to reconsider the back stop terms over the next week/fortnight
This is a real risk here, it would be bad for the UK and the EU, but the reality is that the UK Government (not all businesses) has better prepared for a Crash out/ No deal/Clean Break - than the EU , wonder if this is the end game that could cause the EU to reconsider the back stop terms over the next week/fortnight
This is a real risk here, it would be bad for the UK and the EU, but the reality is that the UK Government (not all businesses) has better prepared for a Crash out/ No deal/Clean Break - than the EU , wonder if this is the end game that could cause the EU to reconsider the back stop terms over the next week/fortnight
The EU bigging up the no deal scenario at the moment is bang in line with their psychological 'warfare' techniques that they use to ramp up their supporters in order to add pressure to national governments. They want May to be as contrite as possible, cap in hand, while they decide all terms of an extension. It is exactly what they did with Greece when various bail out deadlines got nearer. One day a nation state will have the balls to face them up in their game of chicken! (Ask Varoufakis)
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
It's a good job the British Empire never devoted any effort to telling others how to run their affairs, and then sending a gunship to emphasise the point.
Oh....
Yeah! What did the Romans, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians or even the British do for us?
The EU bigging up the no deal scenario at the moment is bang in line with their psychological 'warfare' techniques that they use to ramp up their supporters in order to add pressure to national governments. They want May to be as contrite as possible, cap in hand, while they decide all terms of an extension. It is exactly what they did with Greece when various bail out deadlines got nearer. One day a nation state will have the balls to face them up in their game of chicken! (Ask Varoufakis)
Using reality as a negotiating tactic? How fiendish of them.
I suspect there’s a large number of people in the country that share your opinion. There’s now a big difference between the ideal course of action for leaving the EU and a direct and non-ideal approach as you suggest. There have been so many mistakes along the way that it does make you consider whether it is even possible to leave the EU for a country like Britain, and also makes you wonder actually how many of these ‘mistakes’ have actually been deliberate. If you look back in time you have a country that is firmly embedded in the EU, regardless of the amount of people in this country who would rather not be in. This includes our political system, as well as all the every day functional and legal frameworks that are in place, built up over decades. Even with a non-hostile exit, for example with the blessing of such people as Mr Macron, there would be so many ‘pieces’ to pick up, and who knows what future detrimental effect that would have on the country. Considering our constitutional nature of an adversary parliament and first past the post system, having a referendum to resolve such a giant issue was the first big mistake, in my view. Our authority for governance comes from an elected majority government (and to a lesser extent, a coalition) and to throw another authority for a powerful mandate into the mix creates a clash of authorities, of which is now clear to anyone who has watched this shambles play itself out since 2016. There is no doubt in my mind that the decision to hold a referendum on such a divisive issue, has caused a constitutional crisis (sorry for stating the obvious here). If anyone in power was actually knowledgable or cared about such things, then they wouldn’t have launched into such a decision. We can all think about how stupid or reckless Mr Cameron was, but he is long gone. Who knows when he will return? Some well planned PR launched on a gullible public, and it might be sooner than you think. Then the referendum result confirmed what many people had known for so long – not that a (slim) majority wanted to leave the EU, but that our two main political parties, as supporters of the EU, did not represent the majority of the voting public. Consider that for a moment. Not just the government, or the opposition. Both sides of the house were completely out of touch with the people that they were supposed to represent. That was the real shock. At this point in time, our Parliament became untenable. This was the time that reform of the political parties was so desperately needed, so the voting public could have an option to put a workable solution in place, going forward, that a bitterly divided country could hope to find a solution to. And what did they do? Doubled down on PR, taxpayers money spent on promoting sound bites with no substance, and no idea on how they would leave the EU. The simple reason being is that they do not want to, and will take a quite easy option of quitting and taking a well paid job in business consultancy or journalism when they hit their dead end. If you haven’t already noticed, Brexit was cancelled a long time ago. I hope you’re enjoying the show.
I suspect there’s a large number of people in the country that share your opinion. There’s now a big difference between the ideal course of action for leaving the EU and a direct and non-ideal approach as you suggest. There have been so many mistakes along the way that it does make you consider whether it is even possible to leave the EU for a country like Britain, and also makes you wonder actually how many of these ‘mistakes’ have actually been deliberate. If you look back in time you have a country that is firmly embedded in the EU, regardless of the amount of people in this country who would rather not be in. This includes our political system, as well as all the every day functional and legal frameworks that are in place, built up over decades. Even with a non-hostile exit, for example with the blessing of such people as Mr Macron, there would be so many ‘pieces’ to pick up, and who knows what future detrimental effect that would have on the country. Considering our constitutional nature of an adversary parliament and first past the post system, having a referendum to resolve such a giant issue was the first big mistake, in my view. Our authority for governance comes from an elected majority government (and to a lesser extent, a coalition) and to throw another authority for a powerful mandate into the mix creates a clash of authorities, of which is now clear to anyone who has watched this shambles play itself out since 2016. There is no doubt in my mind that the decision to hold a referendum on such a divisive issue, has caused a constitutional crisis (sorry for stating the obvious here). If anyone in power was actually knowledgable or cared about such things, then they wouldn’t have launched into such a decision. We can all think about how stupid or reckless Mr Cameron was, but he is long gone. Who knows when he will return? Some well planned PR launched on a gullible public, and it might be sooner than you think. Then the referendum result confirmed what many people had known for so long – not that a (slim) majority wanted to leave the EU, but that our two main political parties, as supporters of the EU, did not represent the majority of the voting public. Consider that for a moment. Not just the government, or the opposition. Both sides of the house were completely out of touch with the people that they were supposed to represent. That was the real shock. At this point in time, our Parliament became untenable. This was the time that reform of the political parties was so desperately needed, so the voting public could have an option to put a workable solution in place, going forward, that a bitterly divided country could hope to find a solution to. And what did they do? Doubled down on PR, taxpayers money spent on promoting sound bites with no substance, and no idea on how they would leave the EU. The simple reason being is that they do not want to, and will take a quite easy option of quitting and taking a well paid job in business consultancy or journalism when they hit their dead end. If you haven’t already noticed, Brexit was cancelled a long time ago. I hope you’re enjoying the show.
Good post.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
I suspect there’s a large number of people in the country that share your opinion. There’s now a big difference between the ideal course of action for leaving the EU and a direct and non-ideal approach as you suggest. There have been so many mistakes along the way that it does make you consider whether it is even possible to leave the EU for a country like Britain, and also makes you wonder actually how many of these ‘mistakes’ have actually been deliberate. If you look back in time you have a country that is firmly embedded in the EU, regardless of the amount of people in this country who would rather not be in. This includes our political system, as well as all the every day functional and legal frameworks that are in place, built up over decades. Even with a non-hostile exit, for example with the blessing of such people as Mr Macron, there would be so many ‘pieces’ to pick up, and who knows what future detrimental effect that would have on the country. Considering our constitutional nature of an adversary parliament and first past the post system, having a referendum to resolve such a giant issue was the first big mistake, in my view. Our authority for governance comes from an elected majority government (and to a lesser extent, a coalition) and to throw another authority for a powerful mandate into the mix creates a clash of authorities, of which is now clear to anyone who has watched this shambles play itself out since 2016. There is no doubt in my mind that the decision to hold a referendum on such a divisive issue, has caused a constitutional crisis (sorry for stating the obvious here). If anyone in power was actually knowledgable or cared about such things, then they wouldn’t have launched into such a decision. We can all think about how stupid or reckless Mr Cameron was, but he is long gone. Who knows when he will return? Some well planned PR launched on a gullible public, and it might be sooner than you think. Then the referendum result confirmed what many people had known for so long – not that a (slim) majority wanted to leave the EU, but that our two main political parties, as supporters of the EU, did not represent the majority of the voting public. Consider that for a moment. Not just the government, or the opposition. Both sides of the house were completely out of touch with the people that they were supposed to represent. That was the real shock. At this point in time, our Parliament became untenable. This was the time that reform of the political parties was so desperately needed, so the voting public could have an option to put a workable solution in place, going forward, that a bitterly divided country could hope to find a solution to. And what did they do? Doubled down on PR, taxpayers money spent on promoting sound bites with no substance, and no idea on how they would leave the EU. The simple reason being is that they do not want to, and will take a quite easy option of quitting and taking a well paid job in business consultancy or journalism when they hit their dead end. If you haven’t already noticed, Brexit was cancelled a long time ago. I hope you’re enjoying the show.
Comments like this give me hope. But throw in a few paragraphs, please.
I suspect there’s a large number of people in the country that share your opinion. There’s now a big difference between the ideal course of action for leaving the EU and a direct and non-ideal approach as you suggest. There have been so many mistakes along the way that it does make you consider whether it is even possible to leave the EU for a country like Britain, and also makes you wonder actually how many of these ‘mistakes’ have actually been deliberate. If you look back in time you have a country that is firmly embedded in the EU, regardless of the amount of people in this country who would rather not be in. This includes our political system, as well as all the every day functional and legal frameworks that are in place, built up over decades. Even with a non-hostile exit, for example with the blessing of such people as Mr Macron, there would be so many ‘pieces’ to pick up, and who knows what future detrimental effect that would have on the country. Considering our constitutional nature of an adversary parliament and first past the post system, having a referendum to resolve such a giant issue was the first big mistake, in my view. Our authority for governance comes from an elected majority government (and to a lesser extent, a coalition) and to throw another authority for a powerful mandate into the mix creates a clash of authorities, of which is now clear to anyone who has watched this shambles play itself out since 2016. There is no doubt in my mind that the decision to hold a referendum on such a divisive issue, has caused a constitutional crisis (sorry for stating the obvious here). If anyone in power was actually knowledgable or cared about such things, then they wouldn’t have launched into such a decision. We can all think about how stupid or reckless Mr Cameron was, but he is long gone. Who knows when he will return? Some well planned PR launched on a gullible public, and it might be sooner than you think. Then the referendum result confirmed what many people had known for so long – not that a (slim) majority wanted to leave the EU, but that our two main political parties, as supporters of the EU, did not represent the majority of the voting public. Consider that for a moment. Not just the government, or the opposition. Both sides of the house were completely out of touch with the people that they were supposed to represent. That was the real shock. At this point in time, our Parliament became untenable. This was the time that reform of the political parties was so desperately needed, so the voting public could have an option to put a workable solution in place, going forward, that a bitterly divided country could hope to find a solution to. And what did they do? Doubled down on PR, taxpayers money spent on promoting sound bites with no substance, and no idea on how they would leave the EU. The simple reason being is that they do not want to, and will take a quite easy option of quitting and taking a well paid job in business consultancy or journalism when they hit their dead end. If you haven’t already noticed, Brexit was cancelled a long time ago. I hope you’re enjoying the show.
I have a few issues with this post:
1. 'a country that is firmly embedded in the EU' - Hasn't one of the problems been a perception or a reality that we do not actually join in like we should do in European politics and policy making? This makes a rod for our own backs because we have a media that ignores most of what goes on in Strasbourg and Brussels but then goes off on one at the slightest effect they have in Britain. Actually we are probably not the only state in which this malarkey goes on.
2. 'whether it is even possible to leave the EU for a country like Britain' Britain is a difficult term as it could include the Republic of Ireland (unless you are talking to someone from the Republic, I try and get away with the archipelago off the north west coast of Europe and laugh it off). In the context we are talking about I think you mean the United Kingdom - which is really four countries. It is possible for one or all of those countries to leave the European Union but the worry at the moment is over the economic effect. Note that issues like sovereignty and law making are much more easily settled, we have had The Great Repeal Act on the statute for over nine months now.
3. 'a (slim) majority wanted to leave the EU' - 37% of those entitled to vote is not a slim majority of the people, it is barely more than a third. There has been a lot of extrapolation from both Leave and Remain votes and polls and it is more or less speculative. You may be right that both Houses of Parliament are out of touch but it does seem they are less out of touch than supporters of 'no deal' or other varieties of 'hard' Brexit.
I will leave it there, I feel I have made enough of a pain of myself.
The EU bigging up the no deal scenario at the moment is bang in line with their psychological 'warfare' techniques that they use to ramp up their supporters in order to add pressure to national governments. They want May to be as contrite as possible, cap in hand, while they decide all terms of an extension. It is exactly what they did with Greece when various bail out deadlines got nearer. One day a nation state will have the balls to face them up in their game of chicken! (Ask Varoufakis)
Guess so, it's certainly kind of ironic that sticking to the back stop could lead to the scenario in Ireland that the backstop is supposed to avoid.
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
