| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:01 - Nov 12 with 4159 views | tabletopjoe |
Thanks for posting |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:04 - Nov 12 with 4153 views | GlebeTractor |
What a great documentary, watched it last night.
Graphic, yet intriguing. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:07 - Nov 12 with 4159 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Amongst all the onion pealing about those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the hell of WW1, it is even more appalling to remember that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm, despite being totally unprepared. The important thing to remember about Jackson's effort, startlingly good though it is, is that it isn't real. The BBC should have done something with their seminal Great War series from the early 60's which brings home the ghastly experiences through the impact of reality. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:19 - Nov 12 with 4133 views | factual_blue |
Watched it on BBC2 last night.
Stunning. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:23 - Nov 12 with 4124 views | DanTheMan |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:07 - Nov 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
Amongst all the onion pealing about those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the hell of WW1, it is even more appalling to remember that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm, despite being totally unprepared. The important thing to remember about Jackson's effort, startlingly good though it is, is that it isn't real. The BBC should have done something with their seminal Great War series from the early 60's which brings home the ghastly experiences through the impact of reality. |
" that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm"
That's just completely wrong. Why do you think we spent so long appeasing Hitler? |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:24 - Nov 12 with 4125 views | Steve_M |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:07 - Nov 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
Amongst all the onion pealing about those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the hell of WW1, it is even more appalling to remember that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm, despite being totally unprepared. The important thing to remember about Jackson's effort, startlingly good though it is, is that it isn't real. The BBC should have done something with their seminal Great War series from the early 60's which brings home the ghastly experiences through the impact of reality. |
Large parts of The Great War aren't real either, making use as it does of staged footage without mention. The historiography of the conflict has come on a lot since that was made in the 60s too.
The UK's commemorative efforts have been mixed and tended towards the superficial and simplistic, very little effort to use actual historians to interpret and too much focus on the emotional impact through twenty-first century eyes. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:47 - Nov 12 with 4095 views | factual_blue |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:24 - Nov 12 by Steve_M |
Large parts of The Great War aren't real either, making use as it does of staged footage without mention. The historiography of the conflict has come on a lot since that was made in the 60s too.
The UK's commemorative efforts have been mixed and tended towards the superficial and simplistic, very little effort to use actual historians to interpret and too much focus on the emotional impact through twenty-first century eyes. |
Real connection to a conflict has developed an inverse relationship to poppy size.
Interesting to hear the truth last night of the end of the war. The men at the front spoke of feeling as though they'd been made redundant. They didn't want to talk about the war to anybody but their old comrades, as nobody else could understand what it had been like. Signs outside factories saying 'no ex-servicemen' were commonplace. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:59 - Nov 12 with 4076 views | Lord_Lucan |
I watched and thought it was very good indeed, although I did feel that it underestimated the true horror. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 10:09 - Nov 12 with 4058 views | Guthrum |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:23 - Nov 12 by DanTheMan |
" that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm"
That's just completely wrong. Why do you think we spent so long appeasing Hitler? |
Absolutely. The mood in 1939 was one of grim determination, not exaltation.
Even in 1914 there was very little enthusiasm for war, right up to the point the Germans invaded neutral Belgium (of whose existence the UK was a treaty guarantor). Had they not done so, there is a fair chance we may have stood aside. Mind you, it is also unlikely the Germans would have obtained the startling advantage they did in the early weeks of the conflict. Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, was trying to broker a peace conference right up to the last minute. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 10:12 - Nov 12 with 4053 views | Kieran_Knows |
Will give this a watch later. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 10:26 - Nov 12 with 4043 views | Guthrum |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:59 - Nov 12 by Lord_Lucan |
I watched and thought it was very good indeed, although I did feel that it underestimated the true horror. |
Thing is, the 'horror' tended to be limited to very specific sections of the front, at particular times. Unless there was an offensive actually going on in your sector - or, indeed, if you were posted to the front line at all (many were at base camps and lines of communication) - then it was not all churned up mud littered with corpses and the smashed up remains of woods and villages.
Secondly, given the portability of the equipment and operating conditions, it was near impossible to film during an actual attack/defence. So there simply isn't the footage to work with. Even the well-known sequences of men going "over the top" were actually staged, albeit in a realistic manner with troops who had actually done it.
Finally, modern audiences are too squeamish to see the worst aspects. Too many skeletons sticking out of the mud and piles of dead bodies would render it virtually unbroadcastable in the modern era. I have a very good magazine series from the late '60s and early '70s (lots of the articles are written by those who were actually there). It contains many truly gruesome photos which really bring home the true horror. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 10:40 - Nov 12 with 4023 views | Guthrum |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:47 - Nov 12 by factual_blue |
Real connection to a conflict has developed an inverse relationship to poppy size.
Interesting to hear the truth last night of the end of the war. The men at the front spoke of feeling as though they'd been made redundant. They didn't want to talk about the war to anybody but their old comrades, as nobody else could understand what it had been like. Signs outside factories saying 'no ex-servicemen' were commonplace. |
There was an issue with hundreds of thousands of men being dumped back into the jobs marketplace at a time when the normal economy was stagnant. My own grandfather failed to get his old job back at Ipswich Corporation, so re-enlisted for another three years and was sent to India (he did end up employed back at the Corporation after that).
There was actually a national scandal about demobilisation, as the government tried to mitigate those issues, including releasing the most recently called up men (who thus had the freshest civilian working experience) first - which caused much resentment. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 11:08 - Nov 12 with 3983 views | tabletopjoe |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 10:09 - Nov 12 by Guthrum |
Absolutely. The mood in 1939 was one of grim determination, not exaltation.
Even in 1914 there was very little enthusiasm for war, right up to the point the Germans invaded neutral Belgium (of whose existence the UK was a treaty guarantor). Had they not done so, there is a fair chance we may have stood aside. Mind you, it is also unlikely the Germans would have obtained the startling advantage they did in the early weeks of the conflict. Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, was trying to broker a peace conference right up to the last minute. |
Grey rushed us into war. That treaty wasn’t binding and he knew it | |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 11:10 - Nov 12 with 3979 views | north_stand77 |
Saw this brilliant film at the cinema a couple of weeks ago.
I also found that one of the most surprising things was how the returning men were ostracised to some extent, especially over the job issue, and not the heroes that they really were.
Also things like only having only one uniform for their whole time away and how basic washing/toilet stuff was impossible.
Even some families had no comprehension of what their men had gone through |  | | |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 15:11 - Nov 12 with 3882 views | Guthrum |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 11:08 - Nov 12 by tabletopjoe |
Grey rushed us into war. That treaty wasn’t binding and he knew it |
In what way was it not binding? By the 1839 treaty, we were one of the guarantors of Belgium's 'perpetual independence and neutrality'. Which had just been unilaterally and without justification violated by Germany (simply for convenience in outflanking the French armies).
The Entente Cordiale, on the other hand, did not oblige us to come to France's aid militarily if attacked. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 15:51 - Nov 12 with 3829 views | tabletopjoe |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 15:11 - Nov 12 by Guthrum |
In what way was it not binding? By the 1839 treaty, we were one of the guarantors of Belgium's 'perpetual independence and neutrality'. Which had just been unilaterally and without justification violated by Germany (simply for convenience in outflanking the French armies).
The Entente Cordiale, on the other hand, did not oblige us to come to France's aid militarily if attacked. |
The treaty was very vague. So vague and weak in fact that in 1870 Gladstone made emergency treaties for the Franco-Prussian war to protect intervention against Belgium | |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:08 - Nov 12 with 3802 views | J2BLUE |
A difficult watch. Just so utterly senseless. Then when they caught prisoners they got on well. Just normal people being ordered to fight. When Kim Jong Un kills someone with an anti-aircraft gun we think he's insane. These guys were bombarding humans with bombs and machine gun fire. I struggle to get my head around it and I struggle with it being so 'recent' being just 100 years ago. People alive today who remember WW2 is another one that gets me. It seems like horror should be back in the distant past, not fresh in the memory of people alive today.
This is a good but awful read:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-46152567
Amazing she's 90. Looks about 60. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:37 - Nov 12 with 3773 views | Lord_Lucan |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:08 - Nov 12 by J2BLUE |
A difficult watch. Just so utterly senseless. Then when they caught prisoners they got on well. Just normal people being ordered to fight. When Kim Jong Un kills someone with an anti-aircraft gun we think he's insane. These guys were bombarding humans with bombs and machine gun fire. I struggle to get my head around it and I struggle with it being so 'recent' being just 100 years ago. People alive today who remember WW2 is another one that gets me. It seems like horror should be back in the distant past, not fresh in the memory of people alive today.
This is a good but awful read:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-46152567
Amazing she's 90. Looks about 60. |
We really didn't have a lot of choice, Germany were expanding and would have toppled the whole of Europe and Russia | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:44 - Nov 12 with 3757 views | chicoazul |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:07 - Nov 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
Amongst all the onion pealing about those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the hell of WW1, it is even more appalling to remember that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm, despite being totally unprepared. The important thing to remember about Jackson's effort, startlingly good though it is, is that it isn't real. The BBC should have done something with their seminal Great War series from the early 60's which brings home the ghastly experiences through the impact of reality. |
This is only sort of true Nerdy. Chamberlain had us re-arming very quickly, just not quickly enough. And the only person enthusiastic about the whole thing was Churchill, a man who loved war. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:52 - Nov 12 with 3741 views | Coastalblue |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:37 - Nov 12 by Lord_Lucan |
We really didn't have a lot of choice, Germany were expanding and would have toppled the whole of Europe and Russia |
Yes Germany was still a relatively new country and looking to eat at the top table, incredible that they felt that they could power through and smash France before the Russians could properly mobilise so not having too strong opponents on either flank.
It's also amazing to see all the French Calvary at the start of the war, essentially they could have just stepped out of the Crimean war, they learnt a very hard lesson.
I will give the programme a look this week. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 17:21 - Nov 12 with 3705 views | Lord_Lucan |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:07 - Nov 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
Amongst all the onion pealing about those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the hell of WW1, it is even more appalling to remember that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm, despite being totally unprepared. The important thing to remember about Jackson's effort, startlingly good though it is, is that it isn't real. The BBC should have done something with their seminal Great War series from the early 60's which brings home the ghastly experiences through the impact of reality. |
That really isn't the case, there wasn't much choice regarding entering either of those wars.
Interestingly it was reported yesterday by a relative of Admiral Sir Rossalyn Wemyss who was in charge of the signing of the World War 1 armistice that his decision to announce the ceasefire at 11am on November 11th was against the orders of Lloyd George. Lloyd George wanted to announce it at 14.30 during Prime Ministers Question Time and get all the glory and adulation that goes with it.
Sir Rossalyn Wemyss disobeyed Lloyd George in order to save many lives and was sent to Coventry afterwards because of it and whilst his colleagues involved in the armistice received the equivalent of £5m each Wemyss got feck all. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 17:25 - Nov 12 with 3693 views | J2BLUE |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 16:37 - Nov 12 by Lord_Lucan |
We really didn't have a lot of choice, Germany were expanding and would have toppled the whole of Europe and Russia |
I'm not suggesting we did. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 20:38 - Nov 12 with 3604 views | Steve_M |
Having just watched this, it really was very good. A good snapshot of the lived experience of the war coupled with good use of colourised film to illustrate typical scenes. I don't think Jackson ever claimed it was a complete history but what he has done is present those accounts to a wider audience.
Well worth watching this week. | |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 20:48 - Nov 12 with 3593 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 17:21 - Nov 12 by Lord_Lucan |
That really isn't the case, there wasn't much choice regarding entering either of those wars.
Interestingly it was reported yesterday by a relative of Admiral Sir Rossalyn Wemyss who was in charge of the signing of the World War 1 armistice that his decision to announce the ceasefire at 11am on November 11th was against the orders of Lloyd George. Lloyd George wanted to announce it at 14.30 during Prime Ministers Question Time and get all the glory and adulation that goes with it.
Sir Rossalyn Wemyss disobeyed Lloyd George in order to save many lives and was sent to Coventry afterwards because of it and whilst his colleagues involved in the armistice received the equivalent of £5m each Wemyss got feck all. |
Good for him.
Politics has always had few good men (and now women too) in it. |  |
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| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 22:09 - Nov 12 with 3522 views | BryanPlug |
| They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer on 09:07 - Nov 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
Amongst all the onion pealing about those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the hell of WW1, it is even more appalling to remember that not only did the nation completely forget this horror within 25 years, they plunged into another far worse conflict with some enthusiasm, despite being totally unprepared. The important thing to remember about Jackson's effort, startlingly good though it is, is that it isn't real. The BBC should have done something with their seminal Great War series from the early 60's which brings home the ghastly experiences through the impact of reality. |
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