| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:10 - Apr 18 with 3699 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:00 - Apr 18 by DanTheMan |
Should we be fair and balance this off against the damage done to the planet caused by mass CO2 emissions? |
Of course, I'm just posing the question and I don't know the answer.
Modern petrol engines are incredibly clean these days though. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:14 - Apr 18 with 3694 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 06:59 - Apr 18 by gordon |
Just to be clear, the current trajectory we're on is for runaway warming with the melting of the Arctic permafrost, which will cause ecosystems breaking down on a massive scale, and make human life quite unpleasant for the majority.
Individuals making small behavioural changes regarding packaging or recycling isn't going to change that in any meangingful way (except to signal to politicians and business that they need to do more).
Describing these protestors as 'militant' because they don't want to see these massive negative impacts on ecosystems and species, and the associated impacts on humankind isn't the kind of statement that's going to age well if TWTD is still around in 50 years. |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:48 - Apr 18 with 3658 views | DanTheMan |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:10 - Apr 18 by Lord_Lucan |
Of course, I'm just posing the question and I don't know the answer.
Modern petrol engines are incredibly clean these days though. |
https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/daviz/average-emissions-for-new-cars-4#t
Best I could find in terms of emissions data for newer cars.
In terms of footprint again a quick search suggests that electric cars, including manufacturing, have a lower footprint.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/06/lowcvp-20110608.html
And I'd imagine we still need to make it even better. But to be honest whilst cars help, I imagine far more damage is done by shipping things from China and the massive amounts of energy generation needed to run countries. I don't know what the answer is to all this but I must say I find it strange people are angrier about people stopping a train as opposed to countries and corporations that are causing the issues in the first place. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:59 - Apr 18 with 3644 views | eireblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:47 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
So you agree with their demands to end all air travel for holidays and business by 2025, as their spokesman stated on TV yesterday?
You also agree to end all animal farming by that same date?
Just so we are clear.
Btw the use of plastic is causing massive damage to marine life so cutting out plastic where we can will have a positive effect. [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 7:50]
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You could be a vegan tomorrow if you wanted to.
No effort required. [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 13:01]
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:08 - Apr 18 with 3630 views | Ryorry |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:48 - Apr 18 by DanTheMan |
https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/daviz/average-emissions-for-new-cars-4#t
Best I could find in terms of emissions data for newer cars.
In terms of footprint again a quick search suggests that electric cars, including manufacturing, have a lower footprint.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/06/lowcvp-20110608.html
And I'd imagine we still need to make it even better. But to be honest whilst cars help, I imagine far more damage is done by shipping things from China and the massive amounts of energy generation needed to run countries. I don't know what the answer is to all this but I must say I find it strange people are angrier about people stopping a train as opposed to countries and corporations that are causing the issues in the first place. |
"I find it strange people are angrier about people stopping a train as opposed to countries and corporations that are causing the issues in the first place."
I think some people forget that humans are animals too, and primarily driven by our immediate needs - shelter, food, water, avoiding pain - and that owing to our "advanced" state, this means needing to get to work to buy those first two things, and getting to medical centres in time for the last! The conceptual things will tend to come only second in practice. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:14 - Apr 18 with 3611 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:59 - Apr 18 by eireblue |
You could be a vegan tomorrow if you wanted to.
No effort required. [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 13:01]
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I think you’re missing the point. I could become a vegan tomorrow. But the global economy could not survive an end to air travel or animal farming.
Those two demands in a six year timeframe would put us back in the Stone Age.
Instead, we should be looking at realistic and sensible ways to combat climate change. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:14 - Apr 18 with 3612 views | J2BLUE |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:47 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
So you agree with their demands to end all air travel for holidays and business by 2025, as their spokesman stated on TV yesterday?
You also agree to end all animal farming by that same date?
Just so we are clear.
Btw the use of plastic is causing massive damage to marine life so cutting out plastic where we can will have a positive effect. [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 7:50]
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Another question if I may. I'm sure this one won't matter either and will be another example of me being a c*** but can I ask if this group are independent or are they being funded? The ending all air travel bit has caught my eye and i'm intrigued. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:17 - Apr 18 with 3609 views | bluelagos |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 09:04 - Apr 18 by Lord_Lucan |
I don't disagree with their argument but I disagree with the way they are doing it.
Look at the great strides the LGBT community has made by regular city wide marches. This protest - like others they have done just gets peoples backs up. |
The point is, they are intending to get people's backs up. They beleive the time has come to stand up and do more than make some noise and politely ask the politicians, industry, business to stop destroying the environment.
And i kind of think they have a point. Yours is the first post to half address the question of what (those who object) would others suggest as an alternative form of protest. I'd politely counter that waving flags and peaceful protest has achieved sfa for the green movement so far...meanwhile the destruction continues. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:20 - Apr 18 with 3605 views | eireblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:14 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
I think you’re missing the point. I could become a vegan tomorrow. But the global economy could not survive an end to air travel or animal farming.
Those two demands in a six year timeframe would put us back in the Stone Age.
Instead, we should be looking at realistic and sensible ways to combat climate change. |
Okay, so don't become a vegan, even if it is the easiest thing you could do to reduce your carbon footprint.
And simply wait for somebody to come up with a solution.
I don't have any children, so I don't have to think about what my future family may face.
Quick Cheeky Edit: There wasn't as much meating as you think during the Stone Age, Air travel definitely wasn't a thing. Those pesky Flintstones... [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 13:24]
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:20 - Apr 18 with 3605 views | eireblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 11:14 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes, again, I accept the point made in your first paragraph. I doubt many sane people would disagree with that.
But the demands the protesters are making would turn the clock back to pre industrial revolution. That simply isn't feasible.
They should be making the points you and Dan have made rather than a list of demands that will never be accepted.
Your final scenario makes no sense. |
I think both Rrory and yourself have by implication called a few TWTD's not sane, and they do not have a functioning brain.
Keep up the good work. | | | |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:24 - Apr 18 with 3595 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:20 - Apr 18 by eireblue |
Okay, so don't become a vegan, even if it is the easiest thing you could do to reduce your carbon footprint.
And simply wait for somebody to come up with a solution.
I don't have any children, so I don't have to think about what my future family may face.
Quick Cheeky Edit: There wasn't as much meating as you think during the Stone Age, Air travel definitely wasn't a thing. Those pesky Flintstones... [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 13:24]
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I already spoke about the small steps each of us can take and was basically told that it’s pissing in the wind and we should be behind the demands of the protesters. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:25 - Apr 18 with 3591 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
We should also be addressing the fact that there are too many humans on this planet. Ironically only China have addressed unfettered population growth.
More people = more food to be grown, and continuing habitat loss. |  | | |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:28 - Apr 18 with 3576 views | Ryorry |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:17 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
The point is, they are intending to get people's backs up. They beleive the time has come to stand up and do more than make some noise and politely ask the politicians, industry, business to stop destroying the environment.
And i kind of think they have a point. Yours is the first post to half address the question of what (those who object) would others suggest as an alternative form of protest. I'd politely counter that waving flags and peaceful protest has achieved sfa for the green movement so far...meanwhile the destruction continues. |
Sorry, but I think "getting people's backs up" is likely to be counterproductive, and as I've said before, lead the unconverted to think of the protestors as simply unreasonable and irresponsible.
The clips & photos show them to be mainly young people. There are likely to be at least some of them intelligent, capable & healthy enough to go into politics on a green platform, stand up in parliament, and persuade others, including the corporate business sector, that a viable and better future lies in research & development of eco and green techniques for house-building, transport, renewable energy, food production etc etc. Would be a much better path.
And as J2 & Glassers have said, its also far more productive to give people achievable targets to aim for meanwhile - asking for pie in the sky is just a waste of time that most will ignore because they know it's unachievable. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:28 - Apr 18 with 3575 views | bluelagos |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 11:14 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes, again, I accept the point made in your first paragraph. I doubt many sane people would disagree with that.
But the demands the protesters are making would turn the clock back to pre industrial revolution. That simply isn't feasible.
They should be making the points you and Dan have made rather than a list of demands that will never be accepted.
Your final scenario makes no sense. |
You seem to struggle with the idea that we should / need to make sacrafices,if we are to fix this issue. And I'd argue we need to make a whole lot more than simply taking a few less holidays (yes, me bad).
The reason is that the world is developing. Every poor home in India, Nigeria, China that is lacking a washing machine, TV etc. has the potential for additional energy consumption as we have in the west. So unless we think they should be denied development, then we have to make reductions in our consumption, just to globally stand still.
I know there are lots of technology advances, but the biggest issue that I can see, is the consumerist bollox and chasing the big house, flash car. Do you really need a new car every 3 years? A flash boxter rather than an economical one? That weekend break in Rome?
Our diets, our clothes, our holidays, our cars, our houses....this is way bigger than putting some tins in the recycling bins imho | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:29 - Apr 18 with 3569 views | eireblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:24 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
I already spoke about the small steps each of us can take and was basically told that it’s pissing in the wind and we should be behind the demands of the protesters. |
Well, it is up to you what you do surely?
And if lots of people have a smaller carbon footprint that helps.
I believe you are sometimes a little bit dismissive of people that post on Social Media, but don't actually do something.
You could be a vegan, even by this afternoon, if you wanted to be. | | | |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:30 - Apr 18 with 3564 views | NthQldITFC |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 10:47 - Apr 18 by Ryorry |
I don't think anyone with a functioning brain can still be unaware of the scale of the problem and the danger facing our planet thanks to us humans (aside from a v. small number of climate deniers).
The point that I and others have made is the method the Extinction Rebellion people have chosen to make their protest - they're preaching to the converted on the one hand, and simply alienating many of those who are the ones they actually need to convert on the other hand. If you were someone who, e.g., missed a hospital appointment you'd been waiting months for because of the hold-ups caused by the protests, do you think you'd have been more sympathetic to their cause as a result, or would it be more likely to have led you to think they were irresponsible & unreasonable?!
You've only got to read this thread - it's a microcosm of that - the people who need to be persuaded have shown themselves to be further alienated by the protest, and the only ones pleased by the protest were in the already convinced camp anyway.
I'm only disagreeing with you (and the "convinced" camp, of which I'm also one) because I feel there are far, far better targets, and ways of targeting them, than these blanket protests aimed at, and hurting in many cases, ordinary people.
Btw heard on the radio this morning that the fashion industry is nearly as big and bad a damager of the environment as the fossil fuels industry, meat farming etc., something I for one was unaware of, tho I don't have any figures (yet!) |
I somewhat agree, but I think the real aim is to force politicians to act, and (generalising shamelessly) the only thing that they respond to is a threat to their seats.
I can't imagine many people will have their opinions of the reality of the danger changed either way by this, but if more of us are persuaded to come out and demonstrate our concern, there's more chance of SOME progress in policy, at least.
I am personally utterly convinced by the science, but despite reducing my impact on the planet some extent, I have done pretty much bu99er all in terms of positive action. To my shame. Thus, I thank, support and salute these protesters.
What really galls me is how we tend to ignore the big picture and bicker about relative trivialities such as getting to work late, or "they look like they're enjoying themselves too much". Not sure if this is cowardice, selfishness or downright stupidity. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:32 - Apr 18 with 3556 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:17 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
The point is, they are intending to get people's backs up. They beleive the time has come to stand up and do more than make some noise and politely ask the politicians, industry, business to stop destroying the environment.
And i kind of think they have a point. Yours is the first post to half address the question of what (those who object) would others suggest as an alternative form of protest. I'd politely counter that waving flags and peaceful protest has achieved sfa for the green movement so far...meanwhile the destruction continues. |
Yes I understand your point, I just disagree with it.
People aren't talking about the environment issue, they are talking about how they are being disrupted. I would say that the whole thing is an own goal.
IMHO of course. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:32 - Apr 18 with 3554 views | bluelagos |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:28 - Apr 18 by Ryorry |
Sorry, but I think "getting people's backs up" is likely to be counterproductive, and as I've said before, lead the unconverted to think of the protestors as simply unreasonable and irresponsible.
The clips & photos show them to be mainly young people. There are likely to be at least some of them intelligent, capable & healthy enough to go into politics on a green platform, stand up in parliament, and persuade others, including the corporate business sector, that a viable and better future lies in research & development of eco and green techniques for house-building, transport, renewable energy, food production etc etc. Would be a much better path.
And as J2 & Glassers have said, its also far more productive to give people achievable targets to aim for meanwhile - asking for pie in the sky is just a waste of time that most will ignore because they know it's unachievable. |
They should stand for patliament?
You not noticed our FPTP system? | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:33 - Apr 18 with 3546 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:29 - Apr 18 by eireblue |
Well, it is up to you what you do surely?
And if lots of people have a smaller carbon footprint that helps.
I believe you are sometimes a little bit dismissive of people that post on Social Media, but don't actually do something.
You could be a vegan, even by this afternoon, if you wanted to be. |
Do you fly? | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:35 - Apr 18 with 3535 views | NthQldITFC |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:25 - Apr 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
We should also be addressing the fact that there are too many humans on this planet. Ironically only China have addressed unfettered population growth.
More people = more food to be grown, and continuing habitat loss. |
#1 | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:40 - Apr 18 with 3516 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:28 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
You seem to struggle with the idea that we should / need to make sacrafices,if we are to fix this issue. And I'd argue we need to make a whole lot more than simply taking a few less holidays (yes, me bad).
The reason is that the world is developing. Every poor home in India, Nigeria, China that is lacking a washing machine, TV etc. has the potential for additional energy consumption as we have in the west. So unless we think they should be denied development, then we have to make reductions in our consumption, just to globally stand still.
I know there are lots of technology advances, but the biggest issue that I can see, is the consumerist bollox and chasing the big house, flash car. Do you really need a new car every 3 years? A flash boxter rather than an economical one? That weekend break in Rome?
Our diets, our clothes, our holidays, our cars, our houses....this is way bigger than putting some tins in the recycling bins imho |
I’m not struggling with anything. I’ve stated several times that we could all do more to reduce our carbon footprint. Everything you have listed in that post is realistic.
But the people you are praising are not asking people to make small personal sacrifices. They are demanding an end to all air travel for leisure or business purposes and an end to animal farming.
You are praising them whilst flying halfway around the world, probably whilst stuffing your face on a big fat juicy slice of Bolivian beef.
As Elvis Costello sang; wasn’t it a millionaire who said imagine no possessions? [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 13:46]
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:41 - Apr 18 with 3513 views | Ryorry |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:32 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
They should stand for patliament?
You not noticed our FPTP system? |
PR is just one of the things they could be campaigning for right now, without the need to disrupt peoples' lives!
They could also go into the fields of eco design, R & D on alternative technologies etc etc - come up with ideas, become entrepreneurs to sell them to housebuilding companies, the motor industry at rates which make them attractive enough for such industries to buy into.
Feel sorry for today's youngsters in one way - the awful legacy we've left them - but in another, at late sixty-something, am quite sorry I'm not young enough to go into or start such a venture - could be exciting - save the planet!! | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:46 - Apr 18 with 3485 views | bluelagos |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:41 - Apr 18 by Ryorry |
PR is just one of the things they could be campaigning for right now, without the need to disrupt peoples' lives!
They could also go into the fields of eco design, R & D on alternative technologies etc etc - come up with ideas, become entrepreneurs to sell them to housebuilding companies, the motor industry at rates which make them attractive enough for such industries to buy into.
Feel sorry for today's youngsters in one way - the awful legacy we've left them - but in another, at late sixty-something, am quite sorry I'm not young enough to go into or start such a venture - could be exciting - save the planet!! |
All great ideas. But I'd suggest we need action from our politicians a whole lot sooner... | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:51 - Apr 18 with 3463 views | Ryorry |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:46 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
All great ideas. But I'd suggest we need action from our politicians a whole lot sooner... |
Then they should be occupying Parliament Square to bend the ears of MPs, not occupying bridges elsewhere to disrupt the general public! | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:54 - Apr 18 with 3457 views | bluelagos |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:40 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m not struggling with anything. I’ve stated several times that we could all do more to reduce our carbon footprint. Everything you have listed in that post is realistic.
But the people you are praising are not asking people to make small personal sacrifices. They are demanding an end to all air travel for leisure or business purposes and an end to animal farming.
You are praising them whilst flying halfway around the world, probably whilst stuffing your face on a big fat juicy slice of Bolivian beef.
As Elvis Costello sang; wasn’t it a millionaire who said imagine no possessions? [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 13:46]
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I'll not respond to the personal digs.
The people I am praising are those protesting. They recognise the failure of our politicians to implement policies to address climate change. They may have what you consider extreme views but rather than focus on the more extreme ideas, I welcome the passion the anger, the refusal to sit back and watch the world get destoyed which is pretty much what our generation has done. | |
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