| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:19 - Oct 7 with 3475 views | Guthrum |
Still doesn't absolve whoever is titular Prime Minister from having to request an Article 50 extension under the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Indeed, if the Scottish Court of Sessions case is successful, a Judge can sign the letter on his behalf.
Effectively, it would be an equally large constitutional step for the Queen to retain a PM who has completely lost control of Parliament as to sack him. That hasn't happened for over 200 years, either. |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:24 - Oct 7 with 3454 views | factual_blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:19 - Oct 7 by Guthrum |
Still doesn't absolve whoever is titular Prime Minister from having to request an Article 50 extension under the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Indeed, if the Scottish Court of Sessions case is successful, a Judge can sign the letter on his behalf.
Effectively, it would be an equally large constitutional step for the Queen to retain a PM who has completely lost control of Parliament as to sack him. That hasn't happened for over 200 years, either. |
I imagine HM would call for a new PM straight away. boris has already upset her enough. There are suggestions that, for the first time ever, she'll have her discussions with boris minuted.
I also won't be surprised if she ducks giving the Queen's Speech, citing 'a bad cold' and sends Charles along as another calculated snub to this obnoxious 'filthy piece of toe rag ' of a Prime Minister. |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:25 - Oct 7 with 3442 views | Swansea_Blue |
It's all bluster - same as everything else with him. File safely under 'ignore'. |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:28 - Oct 7 with 3430 views | monytowbray |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:25 - Oct 7 by Swansea_Blue |
It's all bluster - same as everything else with him. File safely under 'ignore'. |
It's beyond the level of joke I could have predicted now. I thought Johnson would at least reign his character in a little bit in the seat of power. |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:28 - Oct 7 with 3427 views | Bluefish |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:24 - Oct 7 by factual_blue |
I imagine HM would call for a new PM straight away. boris has already upset her enough. There are suggestions that, for the first time ever, she'll have her discussions with boris minuted.
I also won't be surprised if she ducks giving the Queen's Speech, citing 'a bad cold' and sends Charles along as another calculated snub to this obnoxious 'filthy piece of toe rag ' of a Prime Minister. |
The Hackney Massive? |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:30 - Oct 7 with 3423 views | Swansea_Blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:28 - Oct 7 by monytowbray |
It's beyond the level of joke I could have predicted now. I thought Johnson would at least reign his character in a little bit in the seat of power. |
Far beyond. The bloke's a joke. | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:31 - Oct 7 with 3420 views | Guthrum |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:24 - Oct 7 by factual_blue |
I imagine HM would call for a new PM straight away. boris has already upset her enough. There are suggestions that, for the first time ever, she'll have her discussions with boris minuted.
I also won't be surprised if she ducks giving the Queen's Speech, citing 'a bad cold' and sends Charles along as another calculated snub to this obnoxious 'filthy piece of toe rag ' of a Prime Minister. |
That latter would be quite an interesting development. | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:38 - Oct 7 with 3405 views | Guthrum |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:28 - Oct 7 by monytowbray |
It's beyond the level of joke I could have predicted now. I thought Johnson would at least reign his character in a little bit in the seat of power. |
I don't think this is Johnson's character. He'd much prefer to be seen as the jolly Mayor, exuding bonhomie.
He's being driven by far more ruthless people, forced into a confrontational approach which simply doesn't work well in the UK political system. Johnson may not have a deep and abiding love for the party he's ridden to the top, but some of his clique are actually happy to smash the Conservatives, Parliament and even the country to achieve their aims. Revolutionary fanatics are like that. [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 10:38]
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:43 - Oct 7 with 3383 views | chicoazul |
I'm a big fan of all the avowed Republicans and Democrats I see on here and elsewhere whingeing about how terrible it is that "he lied to the Queen" and how they all hope she will sack him or whatever. |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 11:53 - Oct 7 with 3323 views | Oxford_Blue |
I appreciate this is a tendentious subject but the thing is that we have had a process, which was clearly warranted at the time to be binding, and which then Parliament effected when it triggered Article 50.
This is in my view about democracy, about trust in our country’s rule of law and processes, and we need to make sure we get Brexit done.
If that means leaving with no deal, then that is the outcome that is required. |  | | |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:04 - Oct 7 with 3292 views | monytowbray |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 11:53 - Oct 7 by Oxford_Blue |
I appreciate this is a tendentious subject but the thing is that we have had a process, which was clearly warranted at the time to be binding, and which then Parliament effected when it triggered Article 50.
This is in my view about democracy, about trust in our country’s rule of law and processes, and we need to make sure we get Brexit done.
If that means leaving with no deal, then that is the outcome that is required. |
Not so much about how/why/when we leave but the fact an unelected man who is making a sh1tshow of the whole thing had tried and continues to suggest he doesn't want to honour democracy when it suits him. You can't have your cake and eat it.
As for no deal, no one voted for how we leave. This referendum has been a joke from start to whatever finish we get. | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:07 - Oct 7 with 3296 views | Guthrum |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 11:53 - Oct 7 by Oxford_Blue |
I appreciate this is a tendentious subject but the thing is that we have had a process, which was clearly warranted at the time to be binding, and which then Parliament effected when it triggered Article 50.
This is in my view about democracy, about trust in our country’s rule of law and processes, and we need to make sure we get Brexit done.
If that means leaving with no deal, then that is the outcome that is required. |
Strongly disagree. The things which need to be done are to explore all the possible options thoroughly, make some serious effort to find a consensus position, then negotiate with the EU and leave with a transition/withdrawal agreement and possibly a framework for future dealings in place.
Instead we had 18 months of p1ssing about (holding elections and spouting 'Brexit means Brexit' rubbish), then one deal put forward tailored only to the partisan requirements of a single faction of one party. That was, unsurprisingly, rejected. Now we have a minor tinkering with that one approach, to suit another, even smaller faction of the same party. That's not a real effort to find a solution. It's lazy and stupid.
Now for that same party to claim we've "wasted so much time" and it's necessary to leave - even without a deal - in the immediate future (they themselves having missed the original deadline) is idiotic and disingenuous. [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 12:15]
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:09 - Oct 7 with 3272 views | Pinewoodblue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:19 - Oct 7 by Guthrum |
Still doesn't absolve whoever is titular Prime Minister from having to request an Article 50 extension under the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Indeed, if the Scottish Court of Sessions case is successful, a Judge can sign the letter on his behalf.
Effectively, it would be an equally large constitutional step for the Queen to retain a PM who has completely lost control of Parliament as to sack him. That hasn't happened for over 200 years, either. |
Boris will no doubt tell them they can get the extension he wants from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eurosonic-Way-Extension-Metre-Cable/dp/B0060QQ3PE/ref=a |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:17 - Oct 7 with 3250 views | Guthrum |
Yes, but he'll end up paying £1bn for it. | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:44 - Oct 7 with 3212 views | factual_blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:07 - Oct 7 by Guthrum |
Strongly disagree. The things which need to be done are to explore all the possible options thoroughly, make some serious effort to find a consensus position, then negotiate with the EU and leave with a transition/withdrawal agreement and possibly a framework for future dealings in place.
Instead we had 18 months of p1ssing about (holding elections and spouting 'Brexit means Brexit' rubbish), then one deal put forward tailored only to the partisan requirements of a single faction of one party. That was, unsurprisingly, rejected. Now we have a minor tinkering with that one approach, to suit another, even smaller faction of the same party. That's not a real effort to find a solution. It's lazy and stupid.
Now for that same party to claim we've "wasted so much time" and it's necessary to leave - even without a deal - in the immediate future (they themselves having missed the original deadline) is idiotic and disingenuous. [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 12:15]
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This just replicates boris's approach to his Latin homework, doesn't it? | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 14:11 - Oct 7 with 3147 views | Oxford_Blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:07 - Oct 7 by Guthrum |
Strongly disagree. The things which need to be done are to explore all the possible options thoroughly, make some serious effort to find a consensus position, then negotiate with the EU and leave with a transition/withdrawal agreement and possibly a framework for future dealings in place.
Instead we had 18 months of p1ssing about (holding elections and spouting 'Brexit means Brexit' rubbish), then one deal put forward tailored only to the partisan requirements of a single faction of one party. That was, unsurprisingly, rejected. Now we have a minor tinkering with that one approach, to suit another, even smaller faction of the same party. That's not a real effort to find a solution. It's lazy and stupid.
Now for that same party to claim we've "wasted so much time" and it's necessary to leave - even without a deal - in the immediate future (they themselves having missed the original deadline) is idiotic and disingenuous. [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 12:15]
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I agree that we should try to negotiate a deal, because that is better than the immediate risks and unknown quantity of a no deal. Perhaps I should have said that in my post but time didn’t permit.
However, if we cannot negotiate an acceptable withdrawal agreement the question is of course what next? My view is that to give effect to democracy, and even though it might carry risks, we need to leave without a deal. This is because we have had a democratic process where clear promises were made repeatedly and 17.4 million people chose to vote to leave. The only logical conclusion about their intention is that in the absence of an agreement we must leave without one. Leave doesn’t and cannot mean staying.
For me, and others, this really is about whether we live in a democratic country with due process and integrity in its political institutions or whether MPs simply decide to take matters into their own hands and thwart or reject the result of the referendum because they don’t agree with it.
I understand that the majority view on the board (at least from what I have read) is of a more liberal/left of centre slant, and those who suggest a different view or who are in favour of Brexit are in the minority. | | | |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 14:46 - Oct 7 with 3107 views | Guthrum |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 14:11 - Oct 7 by Oxford_Blue |
I agree that we should try to negotiate a deal, because that is better than the immediate risks and unknown quantity of a no deal. Perhaps I should have said that in my post but time didn’t permit.
However, if we cannot negotiate an acceptable withdrawal agreement the question is of course what next? My view is that to give effect to democracy, and even though it might carry risks, we need to leave without a deal. This is because we have had a democratic process where clear promises were made repeatedly and 17.4 million people chose to vote to leave. The only logical conclusion about their intention is that in the absence of an agreement we must leave without one. Leave doesn’t and cannot mean staying.
For me, and others, this really is about whether we live in a democratic country with due process and integrity in its political institutions or whether MPs simply decide to take matters into their own hands and thwart or reject the result of the referendum because they don’t agree with it.
I understand that the majority view on the board (at least from what I have read) is of a more liberal/left of centre slant, and those who suggest a different view or who are in favour of Brexit are in the minority. |
My point is that we have hardly yet made a serious attempt to agree a deal amongst ourselves, let alone negotiating such with the EU. We've had one deal presented to Parliament for three provisional votes and rejected, as much by hard-line Brexiteers as by Remainers, then another which the government won't even tell us about, let alone hold a vote on (but which doesn't seem to work for the EU).
To claim we have exhausted all possibilities and are at the last resort of needing to leave without any agreement or deal is more than precipitate. After all, it's nobody's fault but the Government's* that so much time has been wasted.
* A government in which the current PM previously served as a senior minister. Where was he shouting of the desperate rush then? [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 14:48]
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 18:07 - Oct 7 with 3025 views | Oxford_Blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 14:46 - Oct 7 by Guthrum |
My point is that we have hardly yet made a serious attempt to agree a deal amongst ourselves, let alone negotiating such with the EU. We've had one deal presented to Parliament for three provisional votes and rejected, as much by hard-line Brexiteers as by Remainers, then another which the government won't even tell us about, let alone hold a vote on (but which doesn't seem to work for the EU).
To claim we have exhausted all possibilities and are at the last resort of needing to leave without any agreement or deal is more than precipitate. After all, it's nobody's fault but the Government's* that so much time has been wasted.
* A government in which the current PM previously served as a senior minister. Where was he shouting of the desperate rush then? [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 14:48]
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But is that right? There were indicative votes a plenty earlier in the summer and these didn’t come out with any clear majority. It is difficult to see how this might change.
On the point of democracy which I make, what is your view? Let’s assume that we try to negotiate another deal, the EU say no. What then? When we have exhausted all options - then what? | | | |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 18:17 - Oct 7 with 3011 views | GlasgowBlue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 10:43 - Oct 7 by chicoazul |
I'm a big fan of all the avowed Republicans and Democrats I see on here and elsewhere whingeing about how terrible it is that "he lied to the Queen" and how they all hope she will sack him or whatever. |
And.......
“IT’S A COUP. BORIS IS A DICTATOR. WE ARE SLEEPWALKING INTO FASCISM”
Boris “Lets have a general election”
“DEMOCRACY IS DEAD, WE DONT WANT A GENERAL ELECTION. WE MIGHT LOSE.” [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 18:17]
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 19:41 - Oct 7 with 2963 views | m14_blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 18:17 - Oct 7 by GlasgowBlue |
And.......
“IT’S A COUP. BORIS IS A DICTATOR. WE ARE SLEEPWALKING INTO FASCISM”
Boris “Lets have a general election”
“DEMOCRACY IS DEAD, WE DONT WANT A GENERAL ELECTION. WE MIGHT LOSE.” [Post edited 7 Oct 2019 18:17]
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Ridiculous post, and whiffs more than a little of whataboutery....
You know as well as I do why the opposition parties are loath to give Boris what he wants. For once they are putting country before party, something the current government will never ever do.
Whilst I don’t agree with the whole ‘coup’ hyperbole, BJ’s behaviour since taking office has demeaned his office and our country. | | | |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 19:43 - Oct 7 with 2960 views | Trequartista |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 12:04 - Oct 7 by monytowbray |
Not so much about how/why/when we leave but the fact an unelected man who is making a sh1tshow of the whole thing had tried and continues to suggest he doesn't want to honour democracy when it suits him. You can't have your cake and eat it.
As for no deal, no one voted for how we leave. This referendum has been a joke from start to whatever finish we get. |
All prime ministers are unelected, that's why they are not called presidents. |  |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 19:47 - Oct 7 with 2951 views | GlasgowBlue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 19:41 - Oct 7 by m14_blue |
Ridiculous post, and whiffs more than a little of whataboutery....
You know as well as I do why the opposition parties are loath to give Boris what he wants. For once they are putting country before party, something the current government will never ever do.
Whilst I don’t agree with the whole ‘coup’ hyperbole, BJ’s behaviour since taking office has demeaned his office and our country. |
If they were putting country above party then they wouldn’t still be arguing over who could be the PM in a government if national unity and put in a VONC to remove Johnson.
McDonnell has said it can only be Corbyn and won’t support anyone else, even it it meant crashing out with no deal. | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 19:51 - Oct 7 with 2945 views | m14_blue |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 19:47 - Oct 7 by GlasgowBlue |
If they were putting country above party then they wouldn’t still be arguing over who could be the PM in a government if national unity and put in a VONC to remove Johnson.
McDonnell has said it can only be Corbyn and won’t support anyone else, even it it meant crashing out with no deal. |
That’s a fair point.
Although there will be plenty that want to stop Boris but still don’t think it would be good for the country, either short term or long term, to hand the reins to Corbyn.
I make them right on both counts tbf. | | | |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 22:47 - Oct 7 with 2879 views | Guthrum |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 18:07 - Oct 7 by Oxford_Blue |
But is that right? There were indicative votes a plenty earlier in the summer and these didn’t come out with any clear majority. It is difficult to see how this might change.
On the point of democracy which I make, what is your view? Let’s assume that we try to negotiate another deal, the EU say no. What then? When we have exhausted all options - then what? |
The indicative vote debates lasted about 6 hours in total. No expert witnesses were called. As usual in the Commons, much time was taken up with rhetoric and point-scoring.
Only four broad proposals for a deal were actually looked at (plus a few "no deal"or "revoke" options and calls for a second Referendum), namely EFTA+EEA+Customs Union, EFTA+EEA without Customs Union, Customs Union (only narrowly defeated) and Customs Union aligned with Single Market. The first and third of those were re-examined in the second indicative vote (with no fresh ideas). Customs Union was again only narrowly defeated.
Hardly an in-depth or searching process.
Given the EU have already said yes to one (convoluted) withdrawal agreement, why would they say no to any other which did not break the system, appear unlikely to function or risk damaging another member state?
On the narrow point of democratic integrity, what should be the correct course if the public votes for something which later proves impractical and likely to be damaging to the country? Ought the government be compelled to go through with it, or is at least a degree of circumspection more appropriate? | |
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| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 23:09 - Oct 7 with 2862 views | Herbivore |
| BREXITERS: We need to honour democracy to be a Sovereign nation! on 18:07 - Oct 7 by Oxford_Blue |
But is that right? There were indicative votes a plenty earlier in the summer and these didn’t come out with any clear majority. It is difficult to see how this might change.
On the point of democracy which I make, what is your view? Let’s assume that we try to negotiate another deal, the EU say no. What then? When we have exhausted all options - then what? |
The leave campaign promised a great deal, if they can't get that they should go back to the people for another say. |  |
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