| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon 13:35 - Jan 21 with 10098 views | tractordownsouth |
I think it's likely to be a good thing as her voters are more likely to back Starmer or Nandy than RLB |  |
| |  |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 08:55 - Jan 22 with 1996 views | itfcjoe |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 08:50 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. There's a battle to shift the discussion towards these issues and away from the empty brand politics and populist nonsense that have dominated so far. Aided and abetted by an awful media.
The Labour Party have the goal of electing a leader who can survive that while actually promoting relevant policies.
And no offence, but I've been talking about this stuff for years, particularly with regard to Scotland and the other regions in the UK, not to mention Brexit. The evidence has been in front of all our eyes even during New Labour yet we've ended up here. So who's missing the point?
Labour needs to get to grips with the political discussion and change it, not just play along and perpetuate the same problems. |
But a New Labour government achieved far more good, than the Conservative Government.
Just because this is your worldview it doesn't make it right, you can come up with all your reasons as to why you think it is, and a myriad of reasons as to why you think it is the media's fault but the reality is if people wanted that then it would be happening - not going the other way
Have you ever considered that you are wrong? |  |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 08:56 - Jan 22 with 1989 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 23:10 - Jan 21 by Darth_Koont |
You're seriously out of step with left-wing politics (even centre-left) as if you never really understood it. You come across like one of the thick Tories who get everything from the Mail.
Remind me again why you lost in 2010 and 2015 and were thrown out of Scotland along the way. The hard left's fault? Or your fairly empty politics that people just weren't buying anymore? What did you personally learn from that? |
i don't have the energy to explain again why labour lost in 2010 - it wasn't because the electorate were crying out for people like you. it had won 3 huge majorities but f*cked up. no one is suggesting that what was offered in 1997 is what is needed now, just as we know for sure that the last 4 years have led us to the worst defeat since 1935. in the end the ultimate test of electability is that while a party is backed by people like you it stands no chance whatsoever. the hard left are simply political kryptonite when it comes to getting broad popular support. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:16 - Jan 22 with 1954 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 08:55 - Jan 22 by itfcjoe |
But a New Labour government achieved far more good, than the Conservative Government.
Just because this is your worldview it doesn't make it right, you can come up with all your reasons as to why you think it is, and a myriad of reasons as to why you think it is the media's fault but the reality is if people wanted that then it would be happening - not going the other way
Have you ever considered that you are wrong? |
Constantly. That's why I check myself against the evidence available.
And of course New Labour achieved more good. But they crucially failed to address structural issues in the UK - and ultimately sell the nation on the need for a more socialist outlook to balance the free-market ethos.
Ultimately, that lack of balance meant a failure to re-distribute the benefits of economic growth and left many people and regions largely where they were. Which leads to stuff like a failure to sort out the housing shortage and costs which just pushed that further down the road for someone else to deal with. Or regions and communities stagnating and shrivelling up - and then placing even more pressure on housing and infrastructure in places where there's little space left.
The people want Brexit and that's almost entirely down to narrative. Of course, there's a pressing need to disrupt if not change that debate. The key is to know what you are doing and why, and communicate that to get voters to follow you. Not follow the voters where the opposition has taken them. |  |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:25 - Jan 22 with 1939 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 08:56 - Jan 22 by lowhouseblue |
i don't have the energy to explain again why labour lost in 2010 - it wasn't because the electorate were crying out for people like you. it had won 3 huge majorities but f*cked up. no one is suggesting that what was offered in 1997 is what is needed now, just as we know for sure that the last 4 years have led us to the worst defeat since 1935. in the end the ultimate test of electability is that while a party is backed by people like you it stands no chance whatsoever. the hard left are simply political kryptonite when it comes to getting broad popular support. |
Even a Corbyn-led Labour wasn't hard left. And I bet you think I'm hard left too.
Unfortunately, like the other Tory boys on here who are so engaged in the Labour leadership debate you have a view of what the left-wing should be to get your approval. Frankly, that's irrelevant if it's not objectively what the left-wing needs to stand for.
Blairism was a short-term success but a huge long-term mistake in that regard. It's done more to shift our politics rightwards than the ERG. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:30 - Jan 22 with 1920 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:25 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
Even a Corbyn-led Labour wasn't hard left. And I bet you think I'm hard left too.
Unfortunately, like the other Tory boys on here who are so engaged in the Labour leadership debate you have a view of what the left-wing should be to get your approval. Frankly, that's irrelevant if it's not objectively what the left-wing needs to stand for.
Blairism was a short-term success but a huge long-term mistake in that regard. It's done more to shift our politics rightwards than the ERG. |
do you know what the result of the general election was? really?
hard left is a good way of describing the group, including people like corbyn, who are guaranteed to repulse voters. but I don't really care what descriptor we use - looney left, un-electable left, anti-semitic left, they're all fine with me. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:33 - Jan 22 with 1920 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:30 - Jan 22 by lowhouseblue |
do you know what the result of the general election was? really?
hard left is a good way of describing the group, including people like corbyn, who are guaranteed to repulse voters. but I don't really care what descriptor we use - looney left, un-electable left, anti-semitic left, they're all fine with me. |
That was just noise.
I know you don't like it but try addressing what I actually wrote. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:11 - Jan 22 with 1866 views | GaryCooper |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:25 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
Even a Corbyn-led Labour wasn't hard left. And I bet you think I'm hard left too.
Unfortunately, like the other Tory boys on here who are so engaged in the Labour leadership debate you have a view of what the left-wing should be to get your approval. Frankly, that's irrelevant if it's not objectively what the left-wing needs to stand for.
Blairism was a short-term success but a huge long-term mistake in that regard. It's done more to shift our politics rightwards than the ERG. |
The ultra childish continuation, of labelling ANYONE, who disagrees with the JC project as a tory, is tragic and hilarious in a caricature send up of the left by Viz. |  | | |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:16 - Jan 22 with 1853 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:11 - Jan 22 by GaryCooper |
The ultra childish continuation, of labelling ANYONE, who disagrees with the JC project as a tory, is tragic and hilarious in a caricature send up of the left by Viz. |
It would be if I wasn't making the point specifically about how Tories view the Labour Party and the leader and policies they think are best.
But you're right, I could be talking about the Brexit Party as well. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:17 - Jan 22 with 1846 views | GaryCooper |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:16 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
It would be if I wasn't making the point specifically about how Tories view the Labour Party and the leader and policies they think are best.
But you're right, I could be talking about the Brexit Party as well. |
That is the trouble with nationalists, they are all just a little bit mad. | | | |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:19 - Jan 22 with 1837 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:17 - Jan 22 by GaryCooper |
That is the trouble with nationalists, they are all just a little bit mad. |
Eh? You've lost me. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:20 - Jan 22 with 1826 views | chicoazul |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 09:25 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
Even a Corbyn-led Labour wasn't hard left. And I bet you think I'm hard left too.
Unfortunately, like the other Tory boys on here who are so engaged in the Labour leadership debate you have a view of what the left-wing should be to get your approval. Frankly, that's irrelevant if it's not objectively what the left-wing needs to stand for.
Blairism was a short-term success but a huge long-term mistake in that regard. It's done more to shift our politics rightwards than the ERG. |
But our politics isnt "rightward" at all in general. This is a fallacy. |  |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:25 - Jan 22 with 1805 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:20 - Jan 22 by chicoazul |
But our politics isnt "rightward" at all in general. This is a fallacy. |
Compared to our European neighbours it is.
Our populist right-wingers are much more of the mainstream (now a majority government in fact) rather than the fringe parties elsewhere. And socialism (or at least genuine social democracy) has been more part of the long-standing power share and debate. We're much more American from taxation to social equality to foreign policy.
What are you looking at that says otherwise? | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:38 - Jan 22 with 1784 views | chicoazul |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:25 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
Compared to our European neighbours it is.
Our populist right-wingers are much more of the mainstream (now a majority government in fact) rather than the fringe parties elsewhere. And socialism (or at least genuine social democracy) has been more part of the long-standing power share and debate. We're much more American from taxation to social equality to foreign policy.
What are you looking at that says otherwise? |
Compared to Denmark or France, maybe, but comparison isn't evidence of us being "right wing". We just elected a wet as Prime Minister, we have a gigantic welfare state, a huge public-sector workforce, free education, free healthcare, massive debt (in part to pay for all that free education and healthcare), equality enshrined into law, minimum wage, a free press, police that look the other way when many laws are broken especially drug ones, and perhaps most importantly of all freedom to sit down and look bored when the national anthem is played. If you take out the top 2% or so of earners in the UK we are almost as equal in terms of pay as Holland. None of that is evidence of "rightwards"-ness but is in fact evidence of something else. IMVHO of course. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:57 - Jan 22 with 1766 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:38 - Jan 22 by chicoazul |
Compared to Denmark or France, maybe, but comparison isn't evidence of us being "right wing". We just elected a wet as Prime Minister, we have a gigantic welfare state, a huge public-sector workforce, free education, free healthcare, massive debt (in part to pay for all that free education and healthcare), equality enshrined into law, minimum wage, a free press, police that look the other way when many laws are broken especially drug ones, and perhaps most importantly of all freedom to sit down and look bored when the national anthem is played. If you take out the top 2% or so of earners in the UK we are almost as equal in terms of pay as Holland. None of that is evidence of "rightwards"-ness but is in fact evidence of something else. IMVHO of course. |
We have that like all the other countries do (in principle, even if certain things are run differently e.g. German healthcare vs. the NHS). And that's far more a legacy of our socialist past than anything politics has been actively engaged in over the past few decades.
The difference is in less funding of these services as a proportion of GDP, more centralized power, larger regional disparities, less worker protection, more poverty in relation to our national wealth and none of these have really been addressed by recent governments ... in fact they have been getting away with doing even less.
I'd also add that we have an unusually right-wing media that has undoubtedly propped up and promoted a status quo where liberty is championed over equality, capitalism over socialism, the individual over the society, and of course right over left. Rather than in balance where there's a best of both worlds.
That's the politics by the way, I think the UK people's values are pretty fair on this stuff and there is much more of a balance. It's just not been represented by our politics and the two main parties enough. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 11:11 - Jan 22 with 1739 views | chicoazul |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 10:57 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
We have that like all the other countries do (in principle, even if certain things are run differently e.g. German healthcare vs. the NHS). And that's far more a legacy of our socialist past than anything politics has been actively engaged in over the past few decades.
The difference is in less funding of these services as a proportion of GDP, more centralized power, larger regional disparities, less worker protection, more poverty in relation to our national wealth and none of these have really been addressed by recent governments ... in fact they have been getting away with doing even less.
I'd also add that we have an unusually right-wing media that has undoubtedly propped up and promoted a status quo where liberty is championed over equality, capitalism over socialism, the individual over the society, and of course right over left. Rather than in balance where there's a best of both worlds.
That's the politics by the way, I think the UK people's values are pretty fair on this stuff and there is much more of a balance. It's just not been represented by our politics and the two main parties enough. |
Your second paragraph; with the exception of "less worker protection" - and our worker protection is pretty strong (and I don't see how a country that has the kind of worker protection we enjoy can be called "rightwards" in compairson to for e.g. South Korea Japan or the US) so I am not sure I agree anyway - what of those things are right wing or evidence of rightward-ness?
Your point about the media is kind of fair, although Murdoch is an avowed Republican who kept a bust of Lenin in his room at Uni & supported Blair. I do however think the only real head banger RW papers now are the Express and Telegraph. Maybe I am cosseted from these things because I don't listen to LBC or go on Twitter/Fbook or similar if you mean the "media" in a larger sense. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 11:24 - Jan 22 with 1725 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 11:11 - Jan 22 by chicoazul |
Your second paragraph; with the exception of "less worker protection" - and our worker protection is pretty strong (and I don't see how a country that has the kind of worker protection we enjoy can be called "rightwards" in compairson to for e.g. South Korea Japan or the US) so I am not sure I agree anyway - what of those things are right wing or evidence of rightward-ness?
Your point about the media is kind of fair, although Murdoch is an avowed Republican who kept a bust of Lenin in his room at Uni & supported Blair. I do however think the only real head banger RW papers now are the Express and Telegraph. Maybe I am cosseted from these things because I don't listen to LBC or go on Twitter/Fbook or similar if you mean the "media" in a larger sense. |
I wouldn't compare us to South Korea or Japan for a whole host of reasons, mostly cultural and historical. Comparing us to the US and Western Europe is a lot more relevant.
I think your view of what is right or left can always be debated on purist grounds. But for the sake of argument I'm going for the political party version that effectively promotes the individual over society e.g. pushing for lower taxation, more deregulation and supposedly more, richer opportunity in return. We've bought into that, much like our US brethren, but it's far harder to prioritise society to create a fairer, more beneficial balance between the two. Again much like the US.
In Europe, it's a lot closer and principally with the idea that taxation isn't evil because it pays for good stuff. We have the lowest combination of corporate and income tax and as a result one of the lowest tax takes compared to GDP of a major Western economy. Ultimately that's about priorities we've chosen or IMO let our politicians and media choose for us. [Post edited 22 Jan 2020 11:25]
| |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 13:10 - Jan 22 with 1687 views | chicoazul |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 11:24 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
I wouldn't compare us to South Korea or Japan for a whole host of reasons, mostly cultural and historical. Comparing us to the US and Western Europe is a lot more relevant.
I think your view of what is right or left can always be debated on purist grounds. But for the sake of argument I'm going for the political party version that effectively promotes the individual over society e.g. pushing for lower taxation, more deregulation and supposedly more, richer opportunity in return. We've bought into that, much like our US brethren, but it's far harder to prioritise society to create a fairer, more beneficial balance between the two. Again much like the US.
In Europe, it's a lot closer and principally with the idea that taxation isn't evil because it pays for good stuff. We have the lowest combination of corporate and income tax and as a result one of the lowest tax takes compared to GDP of a major Western economy. Ultimately that's about priorities we've chosen or IMO let our politicians and media choose for us. [Post edited 22 Jan 2020 11:25]
|
So....how is that right wing? We still have all the things I mentioned in my post earlier. If we were a right wing or "rightward" leaning country, we wouldn't.
I think comparing us to Japan is perfectly apt. An island nation, generally socially conservative & religious, that had its' economy empire and proud standing wrecked by war, and is now massively indebted with an ageing population. Culturally & historically we are very similar.
We are not a right wing nation, at all, and nor are we trending in that direction. If anything we're trending the other way. Broadly speaking our society now in the UK is very fair and balanced. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 13:30 - Jan 22 with 1660 views | Ryorry |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 20:30 - Jan 21 by Darth_Koont |
The leadership takes responsibility because it was on their watch.
The Labour right of the PLP aren't the mainstream Labour Party though and they've gone backwards over the past 5 years. Blair is now ranked by Labour members as one of the least popular leaders.
Despite that the the Labour right have been undermining the party and the membership almost throughout. They won't hold up their hands though but they've been even more of a faction and more divisive than Momentum who they've labelled as the cause of the disunity. |
Bit shocked to see John Smith only 3rd - till you remember that he, and all before him, were pre social media era. Only JC and Miliband have led in the full digital age.
Completely invalidates that poll imho. |  |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 13:55 - Jan 22 with 1640 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 13:30 - Jan 22 by Ryorry |
Bit shocked to see John Smith only 3rd - till you remember that he, and all before him, were pre social media era. Only JC and Miliband have led in the full digital age.
Completely invalidates that poll imho. |
It's not helped by Yougov's own description of "most popular" but if you exclude those who don't know enough about them for what ever reason then the more popular leaders are Attlee, Wilson and Smith.
But that's by the by, the key is the relative popularity/unpopularity of Corbyn and Blair. The idea that Blair is the acceptable mainstream and Corbyn is the extreme minority is way off. In fact, it's straight from the pages of a Murdoch newspaper. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 14:29 - Jan 22 with 1619 views | StokieBlue |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 13:55 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
It's not helped by Yougov's own description of "most popular" but if you exclude those who don't know enough about them for what ever reason then the more popular leaders are Attlee, Wilson and Smith.
But that's by the by, the key is the relative popularity/unpopularity of Corbyn and Blair. The idea that Blair is the acceptable mainstream and Corbyn is the extreme minority is way off. In fact, it's straight from the pages of a Murdoch newspaper. |
That last paragraph clearly only applies to the current membership though. There are ~475,000 members but >45,000,000 voters. Given the results of elections since 1980 how does that poll show:
"The idea that Blair is the acceptable mainstream and Corbyn is the extreme minority is way off. In fact, it's straight from the pages of a Murdoch newspaper."
The results of elections do confirm that "Murdoch" assertion.
Unless you were only referring to the members? If that is the case then that's fine but it's not really going to help when winning an election and thus implementing policies.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 14:43 - Jan 22 with 1607 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 13:55 - Jan 22 by Darth_Koont |
It's not helped by Yougov's own description of "most popular" but if you exclude those who don't know enough about them for what ever reason then the more popular leaders are Attlee, Wilson and Smith.
But that's by the by, the key is the relative popularity/unpopularity of Corbyn and Blair. The idea that Blair is the acceptable mainstream and Corbyn is the extreme minority is way off. In fact, it's straight from the pages of a Murdoch newspaper. |
The conversation about Blair vs Corbyn to the mainstream is about the whole electorate though, not the Labour membership which has swelled significantly since 2015 and which is undoubtedly skewing this poll
That membership is completely out of touch with the wider electorate, as evidenced by the respective actual election performance of those 2 leaders |  |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 20:29 - Jan 22 with 1527 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 14:29 - Jan 22 by StokieBlue |
That last paragraph clearly only applies to the current membership though. There are ~475,000 members but >45,000,000 voters. Given the results of elections since 1980 how does that poll show:
"The idea that Blair is the acceptable mainstream and Corbyn is the extreme minority is way off. In fact, it's straight from the pages of a Murdoch newspaper."
The results of elections do confirm that "Murdoch" assertion.
Unless you were only referring to the members? If that is the case then that's fine but it's not really going to help when winning an election and thus implementing policies.
SB |
I meant mainstream Labour and realised that after I posted it.
Absolutely, I take your point. For the mainstream mainstream, anything left of Blair is rubbing shoulders with Stalin. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 17:52 - Jan 24 with 1405 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 16:29 - Jan 21 by itfcjoe |
That was to be expected - I wonder if Thornberry will get enough from the CLPs now |
UNITE endorse RLB, which is no surprise, and Richard fcuking Burton as deputy.
Looks like Red Len has learned nothing from the election defeat. |  |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 17:55 - Jan 24 with 1397 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 17:52 - Jan 24 by GlasgowBlue |
UNITE endorse RLB, which is no surprise, and Richard fcuking Burton as deputy.
Looks like Red Len has learned nothing from the election defeat. |
Richard Burton, the actor or the explorer?
Either way, it's a sign of how utterly out of touch the Labour elite really is. | |
| |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 18:11 - Jan 24 with 1382 views | itfcjoe |
| Jess Phillips expected to drop out of the race this afternoon on 17:52 - Jan 24 by GlasgowBlue |
UNITE endorse RLB, which is no surprise, and Richard fcuking Burton as deputy.
Looks like Red Len has learned nothing from the election defeat. |
That can’t be a surprise? He never seems to learn | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
