A post-Brexit solution? 16:22 - Feb 7 with 16046 views | Darth_Koont | Brexit has caused a huge division in this country between Brexiteers and Remoaners. So how to bring the two sides together when there's what one side thinks and believes going against what the other side thinks and believes? We need to use objective facts to bring the two sides together. And discussions where facts are the currency not emotions or beliefs. Alternative suggestions welcome. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 18:49 - Feb 7 with 2547 views | noggin |
A post-Brexit solution? on 18:47 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | What's what I think or know, got to do with what you and noggin know? I do know Norway is a highly developed advanced wealthy country that said no to joining the EU. |
In very different circumstances to post austerity Britain. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 18:49 - Feb 7 with 2542 views | Darth_Koont |
A post-Brexit solution? on 18:45 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | So more clever. I think that's what you mean. EDIT; did you see my earlier post about 3 objective facts as you called them? [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 18:46]
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I didn't see your 3 objective facts. Point me to them. But just saying, if it's about drugs, religion or family values then we might have a problem with your "facts". |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 18:51 - Feb 7 with 2525 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 18:49 - Feb 7 by Darth_Koont | I didn't see your 3 objective facts. Point me to them. But just saying, if it's about drugs, religion or family values then we might have a problem with your "facts". |
A post-Brexit solution? by chicoazul 7 Feb 2020 18:22"We need to use objective facts to bring the two sides together"
Could you please start us off by giving us an idea on what objective facts you mean? 3 examples for instance?
Here is one from me. Many Brexiters do't like the idea of an EU-backed army and that is part of the reason why some voted Out. It is true that Macron Juncker and Merkel have talked about having one. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:01 - Feb 7 with 2496 views | Darth_Koont |
A post-Brexit solution? on 18:51 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | A post-Brexit solution? by chicoazul 7 Feb 2020 18:22"We need to use objective facts to bring the two sides together"
Could you please start us off by giving us an idea on what objective facts you mean? 3 examples for instance?
Here is one from me. Many Brexiters do't like the idea of an EU-backed army and that is part of the reason why some voted Out. It is true that Macron Juncker and Merkel have talked about having one. |
I gleaned this, let me know if you had another point: You said: "Many Brexiters do't like the idea of an EU-backed army and that is part of the reason why some voted Out. It is true that Macron Juncker and Merkel have talked about having one." It's a discussion. We already work together on joint-European operations and also with NATO. And ultimately that's a way to defend and promote our European way of seeing things. After all, there is no better region in the world for caring for other people around the world, and indeed who can understand the use of military as a deterrent rather than for war. We know that war is bad. You may well disagree but let's use facts not the Dambusters theme tune. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:02 - Feb 7 with 2474 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
A post-Brexit solution? on 17:12 - Feb 7 by HARRY10 | It is not about thinking that brexiteers are thick..... they are. Everytime they appear on TV, on here on even in a coversation their ignorance spews out. The defining point is that I know if I am accused of ignorance I would check up on what I thought. Brexiteers never do. It's the same idiotic nonsense day in day out, month in month out and now year in year out. It matters little whether I point out that they are thick or that capital punishment in the UK was not stopped by the EU. They will just reply with more absurd 'whataboutery' Brexiteers are not considred thick because they are not fully informed about every detail - but because of their blanket refusal to engage in rational debate. |
So are you calling Tony Benn thick? |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:10 - Feb 7 with 2474 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:01 - Feb 7 by Darth_Koont | I gleaned this, let me know if you had another point: You said: "Many Brexiters do't like the idea of an EU-backed army and that is part of the reason why some voted Out. It is true that Macron Juncker and Merkel have talked about having one." It's a discussion. We already work together on joint-European operations and also with NATO. And ultimately that's a way to defend and promote our European way of seeing things. After all, there is no better region in the world for caring for other people around the world, and indeed who can understand the use of military as a deterrent rather than for war. We know that war is bad. You may well disagree but let's use facts not the Dambusters theme tune. |
It is extremely dangerous, to my mind, to give a supra-national body an armed force and seems to me to be unnecessarily provocative to several of the world's other great powers including the US and Chinese. Who would the EU intend or need to fight with this Nuclear-capable armed force? If it's a peace-keeping force, well, we have several of those already as you allude to. It seems to me that we have had many many years of peace in western Europe and that is arguably because each nation has its' own army. Sorry but I fail to see who the EU - not member countries, the EU itself - would need to defend itself from, nor how having an army would promote "our European way of seeing things". So I don't blame Brexiters for thinking this and it informing their choice if it did so. EDIT: I do appreciate your call for reasoned clear debate using facts followed by your Dambusters quip, very helpful to the debate you want to have I am sure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 19:12]
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:12 - Feb 7 with 2464 views | Darth_Koont |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:10 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | It is extremely dangerous, to my mind, to give a supra-national body an armed force and seems to me to be unnecessarily provocative to several of the world's other great powers including the US and Chinese. Who would the EU intend or need to fight with this Nuclear-capable armed force? If it's a peace-keeping force, well, we have several of those already as you allude to. It seems to me that we have had many many years of peace in western Europe and that is arguably because each nation has its' own army. Sorry but I fail to see who the EU - not member countries, the EU itself - would need to defend itself from, nor how having an army would promote "our European way of seeing things". So I don't blame Brexiters for thinking this and it informing their choice if it did so. EDIT: I do appreciate your call for reasoned clear debate using facts followed by your Dambusters quip, very helpful to the debate you want to have I am sure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 19:12]
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So obviously you're against NATO? |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:14 - Feb 7 with 2451 views | noggin |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:10 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | It is extremely dangerous, to my mind, to give a supra-national body an armed force and seems to me to be unnecessarily provocative to several of the world's other great powers including the US and Chinese. Who would the EU intend or need to fight with this Nuclear-capable armed force? If it's a peace-keeping force, well, we have several of those already as you allude to. It seems to me that we have had many many years of peace in western Europe and that is arguably because each nation has its' own army. Sorry but I fail to see who the EU - not member countries, the EU itself - would need to defend itself from, nor how having an army would promote "our European way of seeing things". So I don't blame Brexiters for thinking this and it informing their choice if it did so. EDIT: I do appreciate your call for reasoned clear debate using facts followed by your Dambusters quip, very helpful to the debate you want to have I am sure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 19:12]
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So, if they do form an EU military in future (I honestly don't think they will), where will that leave the UK? |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:15 - Feb 7 with 2439 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:12 - Feb 7 by Darth_Koont | So obviously you're against NATO? |
Since you ask, yes I am. NATO specifically was formed to fight the USSR if necessary. It is now redundant. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:17 - Feb 7 with 2429 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:14 - Feb 7 by noggin | So, if they do form an EU military in future (I honestly don't think they will), where will that leave the UK? |
Who knows? It's speculation isn't it? We already have such a pitiful fighting force that we have to share boats with France. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:20 - Feb 7 with 2407 views | noggin |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:17 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | Who knows? It's speculation isn't it? We already have such a pitiful fighting force that we have to share boats with France. |
So what is your point? Better to be British and pitiful, than European and strong? |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:23 - Feb 7 with 2387 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:20 - Feb 7 by noggin | So what is your point? Better to be British and pitiful, than European and strong? |
Are those the only choices? Of course they aren't. We could fund our armed forces properly, not re-up on the ridiculous Tridant system for instance (that we can't even use without the American PIN number). |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:24 - Feb 7 with 2361 views | Herbivore |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:10 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | It is extremely dangerous, to my mind, to give a supra-national body an armed force and seems to me to be unnecessarily provocative to several of the world's other great powers including the US and Chinese. Who would the EU intend or need to fight with this Nuclear-capable armed force? If it's a peace-keeping force, well, we have several of those already as you allude to. It seems to me that we have had many many years of peace in western Europe and that is arguably because each nation has its' own army. Sorry but I fail to see who the EU - not member countries, the EU itself - would need to defend itself from, nor how having an army would promote "our European way of seeing things". So I don't blame Brexiters for thinking this and it informing their choice if it did so. EDIT: I do appreciate your call for reasoned clear debate using facts followed by your Dambusters quip, very helpful to the debate you want to have I am sure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 19:12]
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You don't seem very well informed about what the proposed EU response force is intended to look like. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:25 - Feb 7 with 2371 views | noggin |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:23 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | Are those the only choices? Of course they aren't. We could fund our armed forces properly, not re-up on the ridiculous Tridant system for instance (that we can't even use without the American PIN number). |
Oooh, now you've opened a can of worms. How about scrapping Trident and investing in the NHS, for example? |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:26 - Feb 7 with 2364 views | Darth_Koont |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:15 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | Since you ask, yes I am. NATO specifically was formed to fight the USSR if necessary. It is now redundant. |
So it had a point. It wasn't just a dangerous supra-national force. Why wouldn't a European military (if it ever came about in an official sense) be a similar benefit to us? Compared to us running around the world pushing buttons in the Middle East and making things worse? I actually think our European neighbours understand war and why it should be avoided much more than we do. An alliance with them sounds far better than joining forces with the right-wing hawks in the US and Australia etc. who can see war as capitalism on steroids and a way to put non-whites in their place. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:31 - Feb 7 with 2340 views | HARRY10 |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:02 - Feb 7 by BanksterDebtSlave | So are you calling Tony Benn thick? |
no, dead |  | |  |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:34 - Feb 7 with 2335 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:26 - Feb 7 by Darth_Koont | So it had a point. It wasn't just a dangerous supra-national force. Why wouldn't a European military (if it ever came about in an official sense) be a similar benefit to us? Compared to us running around the world pushing buttons in the Middle East and making things worse? I actually think our European neighbours understand war and why it should be avoided much more than we do. An alliance with them sounds far better than joining forces with the right-wing hawks in the US and Australia etc. who can see war as capitalism on steroids and a way to put non-whites in their place. |
It had a point yes, but it is no longer necessary, any more than a similar EU one is. You just wouldn't create NATO tomorrow. Your second point seems to reflect your oft-stated opinion that EU/Europe clever, British not. That's another opinion, not a fact. I find your point about them understanding war a good one considering they have spent so much of the last 200 years fighting one another which is, to my mind, part of the reason the EU is so important to the European powers and also part of the reason why we Brits understand or endorse that point of view much less since we have suffered much less at the hands of Tyrants and weirdos than all of them have. And your point about "better than the alternative" implies, as Noggin does above, that only those two alternatives exist. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:36 - Feb 7 with 2327 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:25 - Feb 7 by noggin | Oooh, now you've opened a can of worms. How about scrapping Trident and investing in the NHS, for example? |
Yes, why not? Spend it on what you like. Although I do think we need a good strong powerful well-funded armed force that is entirely independent of other nations infrastructure. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:40 - Feb 7 with 2308 views | Oxford_Blue | Ok, here’s a suggestion - perhaps the posts on here goading Brexiteers, referring to them as loons, idiots etc could stop? |  | |  |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:41 - Feb 7 with 2302 views | factual_blue |
A post-Brexit solution? on 18:26 - Feb 7 by bluejacko | Well it’s not emotional is it? You still have the choice stay and lump it or try somewhere else while you have the chance. It’s only on sites like this that this is still being even discussed, down here at the common level people are just carrying on with their lives. |
Do you realise you're basically saying 'go back to where you came from'? Actually, probably not. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:42 - Feb 7 with 2300 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:40 - Feb 7 by Oxford_Blue | Ok, here’s a suggestion - perhaps the posts on here goading Brexiteers, referring to them as loons, idiots etc could stop? |
No. You have to argue in good faith, respect your opponent, and assume their intelligence. If they demonstrate otherwise in the way you say then you walk away. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:42 - Feb 7 with 2299 views | HARRY10 |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:10 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | It is extremely dangerous, to my mind, to give a supra-national body an armed force and seems to me to be unnecessarily provocative to several of the world's other great powers including the US and Chinese. Who would the EU intend or need to fight with this Nuclear-capable armed force? If it's a peace-keeping force, well, we have several of those already as you allude to. It seems to me that we have had many many years of peace in western Europe and that is arguably because each nation has its' own army. Sorry but I fail to see who the EU - not member countries, the EU itself - would need to defend itself from, nor how having an army would promote "our European way of seeing things". So I don't blame Brexiters for thinking this and it informing their choice if it did so. EDIT: I do appreciate your call for reasoned clear debate using facts followed by your Dambusters quip, very helpful to the debate you want to have I am sure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 19:12]
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But that's not how tt was put over to brexiteers and not how they imagined it would be. Theirs was an army in nazi type uniforms where poor Tommy Atkins would be subsrvient to the frightful hun. Where in treality it os about co-ordination. Something that alreadu happens on a daily basis via the UN. Check how many countries have armed forces in the Middle East. Check how many of them are forced into another countrys army. If EU countries co-ordinated their efforts to stop the people smugglers in the mediteranean would that mean an EU navy ? Does the co-ordination of EU poloce forces amount to an EWU ploice force ? Of course not. This guff was never anything more than another misrepresentation to over excite brexit thickos. British fish for British people... innit. |  | |  |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:43 - Feb 7 with 2298 views | noggin |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:36 - Feb 7 by chicoazul | Yes, why not? Spend it on what you like. Although I do think we need a good strong powerful well-funded armed force that is entirely independent of other nations infrastructure. |
Which nation/s are you suggesting we might need to defend ourselves from? |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:43 - Feb 7 with 2298 views | jeera | War, all out war. That'll decide things. |  |
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A post-Brexit solution? on 19:45 - Feb 7 with 2285 views | chicoazul |
A post-Brexit solution? on 19:43 - Feb 7 by noggin | Which nation/s are you suggesting we might need to defend ourselves from? |
Who knows? But it is a fact that in the last 40 years our sovereign territory was invaded by a hostile foreign force. EDIT; it's also true that our armed forces can play a role in peace-keeping (or whatever you want to call it) in places that see innocent people killed by loons. [Post edited 7 Feb 2020 19:48]
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