| If you buy illegal drugs on 23:50 - Feb 17 with 2801 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 21:46 - Feb 17 by sparks |
Will you at least consider the moral issue here instead of deflecting?
If you buy these drugs, you are contributing to the criminality and the abuse and exploitation of kids and vulnerable people in the supply network, as well as the violent crime. Not to mention the family and domestic problems that go with (particualrly class a) drug use.
Is there really a qualitiative (as opposed to moral outrage based) difference, between someone viewing child porn, and this? The former, is not directly hurting the kids and may a person never have any likelihood or intention of doing direct harm to anyone (though obviously some do- which is a separate issue). However, by creating the demand they are indirectly causing harm and rightly punished when caught.
By buying drugs, you are also not directly intending harm- (save perhaps to yourself) but you are similarly supporting and facilitating a trade which is actively harming many vulnerable people in appalling ways. |
I've considered the moral issue and I'm not deflecting - just being realistic. Listing the side effects of the criminality of drugs is of no use. Bringing child porn into the debate is pathetic frankly. Stick to the issue and how we might solve it. Making recreational drug users out to be worse than people who watch child porn is silly at best and offers no solution. I'd expect better of someone whose views I usually respect.
There's no issue about purchasing drugs from drug dealers. We all know it's wrong. Do you not think there's a sensible debate to be had rather than demonising people (which history suggests doesn't work?
Also, you're aligning yourself with Chickers. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 00:21 - Feb 18 with 2773 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 23:50 - Feb 17 by BrixtonBlue |
I've considered the moral issue and I'm not deflecting - just being realistic. Listing the side effects of the criminality of drugs is of no use. Bringing child porn into the debate is pathetic frankly. Stick to the issue and how we might solve it. Making recreational drug users out to be worse than people who watch child porn is silly at best and offers no solution. I'd expect better of someone whose views I usually respect.
There's no issue about purchasing drugs from drug dealers. We all know it's wrong. Do you not think there's a sensible debate to be had rather than demonising people (which history suggests doesn't work?
Also, you're aligning yourself with Chickers. |
You are absolutely deflecting.
Explain why the analogy is flawed....
I have not made any comment on the arguments for leglalisation or any other solutions. All I have asked, is that you consider the morality of providing a market for a business which actively harms vulnerable people. What I see is people making excuses on the grounds (essentially) that it is something they want to be able to do- and feel they should be able to do.
Noone has said anything about people being *worse* than those watching child porn. The situation is analagous. The analogy is a sound one - an essentially harmless (or only self harming) act which has massive secondrary consequences for people involved in the supply. Don't underestimate the massive human and social impact of cuckooing vulnerable people, of using kids from care homes, kids with mental health problems etc etc to run county lines. This is a huge multi headed hydra. Without a market, it doesnt exist. We may all agree that such a market is inevitable- but that doesnt give the people creating that market a free moral pass. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 00:43 - Feb 18 with 2761 views | The_Last_Baron |
I saw an interview with the Philippines president Rodrigo Duterte a few weeks ago on the BBC. When it came to drugs he simply said 'if you bring drugs into my country I will kill you'.
Drug dealers are a scourge on society and when convicted should face draconian sentences. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:54 - Feb 18 with 2678 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 00:43 - Feb 18 by The_Last_Baron |
I saw an interview with the Philippines president Rodrigo Duterte a few weeks ago on the BBC. When it came to drugs he simply said 'if you bring drugs into my country I will kill you'.
Drug dealers are a scourge on society and when convicted should face draconian sentences. |
I know you are just a wind-up account but advocating extrajudicial killings is a new low, even for you. If you want to uphold the rule of law undermining it is not the best way to go about it.
Then following it up with a post connecting a drug user with his pedophilia right after you have highlighted someone whose policies involves the murder of street children is misguided, perhaps you are not a wind-up but just have a blind spot when it comes to reflecting on what you are suggesting. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:33 - Feb 18 with 2659 views | giant_stow |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 17:30 - Feb 17 by sparks |
There can be little doubt that if middle class and middle aged folks stopped taking coke and pot, there would be a consequent significant reduction in the market which is supplied by violent criminal gangs exploiting vulnerable people and children to create their supply lines. |
You're speaking in theoretical absolutes there whereas people will in reality, buy from all sorts of characters. Plenty of drug deals wont involve vulnerable bods or kids.
Plus, if people were allowed to grow their own (mary jane at least) there'd be no market to exploit. Why cant we grow our own? I have no idea. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:40 - Feb 18 with 2634 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:33 - Feb 18 by giant_stow |
You're speaking in theoretical absolutes there whereas people will in reality, buy from all sorts of characters. Plenty of drug deals wont involve vulnerable bods or kids.
Plus, if people were allowed to grow their own (mary jane at least) there'd be no market to exploit. Why cant we grow our own? I have no idea. |
One of the articles Chico posted previously essentially pointed out that these exploitative county lines type gangs are rife in deprived areas where they can prey on the vulnerable. They dabble in everything but their main market is heroin, crack, and weed. As I pointed out earlier, they aren't slinging a gram to a banker at Canary Wharf. The two markets are entirely different. 'Middle class' drug users could all stop tomorrow and the county lines stuff would roll on untroubled. I think it highlights a certain naivety from some posters that they think there is one homogenous drug market out there. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:49 - Feb 18 with 2643 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:33 - Feb 18 by giant_stow |
You're speaking in theoretical absolutes there whereas people will in reality, buy from all sorts of characters. Plenty of drug deals wont involve vulnerable bods or kids.
Plus, if people were allowed to grow their own (mary jane at least) there'd be no market to exploit. Why cant we grow our own? I have no idea. |
Its fascinating to see people so keen to minimise the impact of these things.
The drug trade is at the heart of many social problems- speak to a local police officer who understands county lines. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:20 - Feb 18 with 2620 views | giant_stow |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:49 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Its fascinating to see people so keen to minimise the impact of these things.
The drug trade is at the heart of many social problems- speak to a local police officer who understands county lines. |
No minimising mr - just saying that your absolutes are actually very grey. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:22 - Feb 18 with 2619 views | Pinewoodblue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:49 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Its fascinating to see people so keen to minimise the impact of these things.
The drug trade is at the heart of many social problems- speak to a local police officer who understands county lines. |
The social problems were there before County lines, you could go so far as to say County lines takes advantage of the social problems to push their wares. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:25 - Feb 18 with 2607 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:22 - Feb 18 by Pinewoodblue |
The social problems were there before County lines, you could go so far as to say County lines takes advantage of the social problems to push their wares. |
Again- minimising. Talk to someone who is involved in this stuff and how it is affecting people every day.
Of course there are other social problems. But these are active criminial gangs, making money from the middle classes buying coke et al, by using kids and vulnerable people to take the risks and provide delivery etc, under threat of violence.
Every week in every town, there are people being evicted fmor their homes, because they have been "cuckooed", there are kids in council care being targetted and befriended by these people- and drawn into what is happening.
Noone says there are not other problems, or that solving this one is a panacea. What I was hoping to see (but perhaps unsurprisingly havent) is someone with the integrity to say "You know what? I can see the problem here. I probably wont stop doing what I enjoy, but I am at least uncomfortable with it".
Not one. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:26 - Feb 18 with 2595 views | Herbivore |
I'm just going to leave this here as it explains, from law enforcement, that the county lines dealers base their model on slinging crack and heroin to vulnerable people: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url= https://nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/who-we-are/publications/257-county-lines-drug
If people want to have a proper, grown up debate about drug use and its impact they should at least try to educate themselves first. There has been some media rhetoric, and some from public figures, blaming middle class drug users because it's far easier to try to blame them than to deal with the much more deeply rooted social issues that underpin county lines.
A sensible debate about drugs should be focused on legalisation as that is the one sure fire way to drastically reduce criminal involvement and violence. All middle class drug users could stop tomorrow and it wouldn't make a dent on the issue of county lines so people really need to stop viewing that as a viable solution to a complex issue. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:29 - Feb 18 with 2600 views | giant_stow |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:25 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Again- minimising. Talk to someone who is involved in this stuff and how it is affecting people every day.
Of course there are other social problems. But these are active criminial gangs, making money from the middle classes buying coke et al, by using kids and vulnerable people to take the risks and provide delivery etc, under threat of violence.
Every week in every town, there are people being evicted fmor their homes, because they have been "cuckooed", there are kids in council care being targetted and befriended by these people- and drawn into what is happening.
Noone says there are not other problems, or that solving this one is a panacea. What I was hoping to see (but perhaps unsurprisingly havent) is someone with the integrity to say "You know what? I can see the problem here. I probably wont stop doing what I enjoy, but I am at least uncomfortable with it".
Not one. |
That missing integrity you talk of would only logically apply if a person bought from cuckooed kids, dont you agree? [Post edited 18 Feb 2020 9:41]
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:30 - Feb 18 with 2578 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:25 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Again- minimising. Talk to someone who is involved in this stuff and how it is affecting people every day.
Of course there are other social problems. But these are active criminial gangs, making money from the middle classes buying coke et al, by using kids and vulnerable people to take the risks and provide delivery etc, under threat of violence.
Every week in every town, there are people being evicted fmor their homes, because they have been "cuckooed", there are kids in council care being targetted and befriended by these people- and drawn into what is happening.
Noone says there are not other problems, or that solving this one is a panacea. What I was hoping to see (but perhaps unsurprisingly havent) is someone with the integrity to say "You know what? I can see the problem here. I probably wont stop doing what I enjoy, but I am at least uncomfortable with it".
Not one. |
If you look at the evidence that isn't what's happening, as has been pointed out repeatedly. There isn't a single homogenous 'drugs market' controlled by county lines. County lines dealers are primarily involved in the supply of heroin and crack to vulnerable people, they aren't the ones who are shifting a gram or two of coke to city bankers or politicians. I've posted a link to a report by the NCA demonstrating just that. Middle class users could all stop tomorrow and county lines would roll right on. [Post edited 18 Feb 2020 9:31]
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:30 - Feb 18 with 2592 views | giant_stow |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:26 - Feb 18 by Herbivore |
I'm just going to leave this here as it explains, from law enforcement, that the county lines dealers base their model on slinging crack and heroin to vulnerable people: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url= https://nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/who-we-are/publications/257-county-lines-drug
If people want to have a proper, grown up debate about drug use and its impact they should at least try to educate themselves first. There has been some media rhetoric, and some from public figures, blaming middle class drug users because it's far easier to try to blame them than to deal with the much more deeply rooted social issues that underpin county lines.
A sensible debate about drugs should be focused on legalisation as that is the one sure fire way to drastically reduce criminal involvement and violence. All middle class drug users could stop tomorrow and it wouldn't make a dent on the issue of county lines so people really need to stop viewing that as a viable solution to a complex issue. |
Middle para - nail on the head. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:41 - Feb 18 with 2569 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:29 - Feb 18 by giant_stow |
That missing integrity you talk of would only logically apply if a person bought from cuckooed kids, dont you agree? [Post edited 18 Feb 2020 9:41]
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Absolutely not.
1- you don't see the bits in the middle or know their circumstances, so you would not know the harm being done in the middle of the chain. The fact that you talk about cuckooe kids shows you dont really know the subject. That tends to be vulnerable adults.
2- In any event, its about creating the market.
The tap dance you are willing to do to avoid the uncomfortable reality is pretty extraoradinary. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:44 - Feb 18 with 2564 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:49 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Its fascinating to see people so keen to minimise the impact of these things.
The drug trade is at the heart of many social problems- speak to a local police officer who understands county lines. |
It does seem that way. I can’t get my head around people playing down the role of demand in all of this, but then I’m not a recreational user. Never have been, never will be.
Legalisation is seen as the magic bullet, but I don’t see how that can work given the international angle. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:47 - Feb 18 with 2559 views | eireblue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 00:21 - Feb 18 by sparks |
You are absolutely deflecting.
Explain why the analogy is flawed....
I have not made any comment on the arguments for leglalisation or any other solutions. All I have asked, is that you consider the morality of providing a market for a business which actively harms vulnerable people. What I see is people making excuses on the grounds (essentially) that it is something they want to be able to do- and feel they should be able to do.
Noone has said anything about people being *worse* than those watching child porn. The situation is analagous. The analogy is a sound one - an essentially harmless (or only self harming) act which has massive secondrary consequences for people involved in the supply. Don't underestimate the massive human and social impact of cuckooing vulnerable people, of using kids from care homes, kids with mental health problems etc etc to run county lines. This is a huge multi headed hydra. Without a market, it doesnt exist. We may all agree that such a market is inevitable- but that doesnt give the people creating that market a free moral pass. |
How could you legalise child porn, without exploiting children?
You can legalise drugs, without exploiting framers, dock workers, truck drivers, retail workers.
I am not sure your analogy works.
There has always been drug usage through human history. Cocaine, for instance was used for thousands of years, somewhat similar to tea.
There was an ex-police officer on QT recently. He made a very good point. In summary, the police created a competitive environment whereby drug dealers evolved to become better.
Advocating for prohibition, on something that has existed for thousands of years, both in humans and other mammals, is also a cause.
In the same way people could stop taking drugs, people could stop prohibition and the failed “war on drugs”.
I don’t take drugs, so not all people opposed to prohibition are drug users, so are not in a position to hold their hands up and admit they contribute to the problem, and ignore it.
However the converse is also true, there are plenty of middle class people that don’t use drugs, and are happy to support the “war on drugs” despite all the misery that causes throughout the whole supply chain. |  | | |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:51 - Feb 18 with 2548 views | giant_stow |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:41 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Absolutely not.
1- you don't see the bits in the middle or know their circumstances, so you would not know the harm being done in the middle of the chain. The fact that you talk about cuckooe kids shows you dont really know the subject. That tends to be vulnerable adults.
2- In any event, its about creating the market.
The tap dance you are willing to do to avoid the uncomfortable reality is pretty extraoradinary. |
My use of cuckooed kids was reapeating back your phrase for the purposrs of debate mr, but youre right, i dont know much about that. Only what i read in the papers, despite being a regular consumer of cannabis - tjats my point!
What i do know is my dealer and roughly where she gets it from - im comfy with that. I could walk 10 mins down the road to buy off street teenagers or i could travel across London to buy from her - my integrity and conscience are clean!
I do wonder if your side of the argument can say the same though. What if your opinions and actions that flow from them make the problem worse? I go back to my question asking why im not allowed to grow my own... [Post edited 18 Feb 2020 9:55]
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:55 - Feb 18 with 2528 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:47 - Feb 18 by eireblue |
How could you legalise child porn, without exploiting children?
You can legalise drugs, without exploiting framers, dock workers, truck drivers, retail workers.
I am not sure your analogy works.
There has always been drug usage through human history. Cocaine, for instance was used for thousands of years, somewhat similar to tea.
There was an ex-police officer on QT recently. He made a very good point. In summary, the police created a competitive environment whereby drug dealers evolved to become better.
Advocating for prohibition, on something that has existed for thousands of years, both in humans and other mammals, is also a cause.
In the same way people could stop taking drugs, people could stop prohibition and the failed “war on drugs”.
I don’t take drugs, so not all people opposed to prohibition are drug users, so are not in a position to hold their hands up and admit they contribute to the problem, and ignore it.
However the converse is also true, there are plenty of middle class people that don’t use drugs, and are happy to support the “war on drugs” despite all the misery that causes throughout the whole supply chain. |
You are not addressing the point made and are wilfully ignoring what was written.
I havent commented on the case for legalisation. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:58 - Feb 18 with 2511 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:51 - Feb 18 by giant_stow |
My use of cuckooed kids was reapeating back your phrase for the purposrs of debate mr, but youre right, i dont know much about that. Only what i read in the papers, despite being a regular consumer of cannabis - tjats my point!
What i do know is my dealer and roughly where she gets it from - im comfy with that. I could walk 10 mins down the road to buy off street teenagers or i could travel across London to buy from her - my integrity and conscience are clean!
I do wonder if your side of the argument can say the same though. What if your opinions and actions that flow from them make the problem worse? I go back to my question asking why im not allowed to grow my own... [Post edited 18 Feb 2020 9:55]
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You are still evading and deflecting.
By buying illegal drugs, you are creating a market and supporting a trade which is causing enormous harm to many people, right now.
All I am suggesting is people should be aware of that and at least acknowledge a degree of discomfort about it (as one might do, for instance, in buying a fuel guzzling car). Extraoradinary the intellectual tap dance people will do to avoid that. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:00 - Feb 18 with 2503 views | eireblue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:55 - Feb 18 by sparks |
You are not addressing the point made and are wilfully ignoring what was written.
I havent commented on the case for legalisation. |
You made a poor analogy, that also didn’t address the act of prohibition itself, and therefore the responsibilities of the people enforcing the prohibition.
Framing and limiting a discussion in a way that helps you make a point, does not necessarily mean your framing or point is useful. | | | |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:02 - Feb 18 with 2481 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:00 - Feb 18 by eireblue |
You made a poor analogy, that also didn’t address the act of prohibition itself, and therefore the responsibilities of the people enforcing the prohibition.
Framing and limiting a discussion in a way that helps you make a point, does not necessarily mean your framing or point is useful. |
He's not really interested in a grown up debate, hence him ignoring evidence which shows that middle class drug dealers could all stop tomorrow and it'd have no real impact on the scourge of county lines. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:03 - Feb 18 with 2489 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:00 - Feb 18 by eireblue |
You made a poor analogy, that also didn’t address the act of prohibition itself, and therefore the responsibilities of the people enforcing the prohibition.
Framing and limiting a discussion in a way that helps you make a point, does not necessarily mean your framing or point is useful. |
You are the second to claim I have something wrong or that it is a poor analogy. but you cant explain why.
For the third or fourth time, I have not commented on prohibition or the argument for legalisation. Whether we like it or agree with it or not, the position is that many drugs are currently illegal. It is in that context, that the demand creates significant harm to vulernable people in the supply chain.
I have no problem discussing the larger issues- they are entirely valid. However, what is happening here- is that the wider issues are being introduced in order to avoid addressing an uncomfortable truth. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:23 - Feb 18 with 2458 views | chicoazul |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:41 - Feb 18 by sparks |
Absolutely not.
1- you don't see the bits in the middle or know their circumstances, so you would not know the harm being done in the middle of the chain. The fact that you talk about cuckooe kids shows you dont really know the subject. That tends to be vulnerable adults.
2- In any event, its about creating the market.
The tap dance you are willing to do to avoid the uncomfortable reality is pretty extraoradinary. |
People really really don't like it when you express publicly the doubts they too hold, but privately. Look at all the angels dancing on a pin in this thread in response to a very simple request; don't buy illegal drugs because of what it does to communities/society. Look at the p1ss taking and name calling and condescension. They do that because they agree. |  |
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