| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:43 - Apr 10 with 622 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:35 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
“ The UK response has been far from perfect and there are many areas of legitimate criticism but as you say”
So you agree but still spent four pages arguing with me about the swerve of what we’re doing now we’ve already f*cked it. Glad we got there in the end. |
No.
You are once again twisting peoples words and you've selectively quoted my post which is frankly rude.
I don't agree at all on PPE as I stated multiple times. You refuse to hear it. You refuse to engage with it.
Lucan was entirely right, it's up to you to prove that government isn't trying to source PPE, not for him to prove it is as you've made the assertion.
You need to step away from the internet, you are turning into a quite unpleasant individual.
SB |  | |  |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:43 - Apr 10 with 621 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:33 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
So you have no evidence and are working on assumptions. Glad we cleared that up. |
Edit: Already covered it.
SB [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 14:46]
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:46 - Apr 10 with 611 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:43 - Apr 10 by StokieBlue |
No.
You are once again twisting peoples words and you've selectively quoted my post which is frankly rude.
I don't agree at all on PPE as I stated multiple times. You refuse to hear it. You refuse to engage with it.
Lucan was entirely right, it's up to you to prove that government isn't trying to source PPE, not for him to prove it is as you've made the assertion.
You need to step away from the internet, you are turning into a quite unpleasant individual.
SB |
I've tried my best to avoid replying to him. I said a couple of weeks ago that he needs to get off the internet for his own health until this is all over. |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:49 - Apr 10 with 611 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:39 - Apr 10 by Ely_Blue |
What I find funny is that the lack of or lack of distribution of PPE is the governments fault somehow, I wonder how many managers this doctor or any of the others have that have been complaining about PPE? I could understand it if the person complaining to the government was the head of the nhs or a very senior manager.
It is akin to me complaining to my company CEO because there are no big biros or highlighter pens in the stationary cupboard.
Maybe more of the blame and focus should be aimed at the nhs managers and supply chain people who are not distributing what is obviously in the system somewhere? |
I can't see why distribution should be a problem, I'm not saying it isn't but I'm saying it shouldn't be.
I do though think though there is a problem within NHS procurement. Most companies who import from China are getting scores of emails every day offering PPE. I have contacted someone at the NHS offering masks and isolation suits and never got a reply.
I think though that NHS must have preferred suppliers in case of dodgy batches. I believe many European countries have thrown a lot of their stuff away.
The whole situation is incredibly complicated, unless of course you are a TWTDer [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 14:51]
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:56 - Apr 10 with 598 views | Leaky |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:39 - Apr 10 by Ely_Blue |
What I find funny is that the lack of or lack of distribution of PPE is the governments fault somehow, I wonder how many managers this doctor or any of the others have that have been complaining about PPE? I could understand it if the person complaining to the government was the head of the nhs or a very senior manager.
It is akin to me complaining to my company CEO because there are no big biros or highlighter pens in the stationary cupboard.
Maybe more of the blame and focus should be aimed at the nhs managers and supply chain people who are not distributing what is obviously in the system somewhere? |
I think you ust nailed it |  | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:31 - Apr 10 with 571 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:40 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Most of China was on complete lockdown - including Shenzhen which is where a lot of this is made.
I also previously posted that when the PPE factories opened they were overlooked by the army and most of the gear was sent to Wuhan and other Chinese cities - but you ignored that post because it didn't sit well with you. |
I acknowledge you have a point. But this point still ignores the fact years of cuts, including PPE gear for an event like this, have lead us to this predicament.
I find no record of us trying to source this stuff in February BTW in relation to your earlier point, only by mid-to-late March, which again adds to my original point. And we also rejected help from
the EU.
I really don’t know how people aren’t connecting these dots.
The findings of whatever enquiries are carried out after this are going to say a lot. And I’d put good money on it those shortages and a lack of dealing with them early enough will play a key part, particularly alongside a delayed lockdown that added unneeded pressure because of incorrect forecasting. |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:32 - Apr 10 with 570 views | NewcyBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:34 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
China wasn’t on a complete lockdown. |
I was in China from 21st November to 17th January.
I can tell you that, whilst it wasn’t a complete lockdown, productivity was nowhere near what the world normally buys from them.
Nowhere near.
I also had the buying power of one of the biggest shipping companies in the world behind me and there was plenty of stuff we couldn’t get. |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:35 - Apr 10 with 568 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:32 - Apr 10 by NewcyBlue |
I was in China from 21st November to 17th January.
I can tell you that, whilst it wasn’t a complete lockdown, productivity was nowhere near what the world normally buys from them.
Nowhere near.
I also had the buying power of one of the biggest shipping companies in the world behind me and there was plenty of stuff we couldn’t get. |
Aside from that I came back on the 13th Jan and not even Wuhan was in lockdown by then I don't think. [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 15:35]
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:35 - Apr 10 with 567 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:39 - Apr 10 by Ely_Blue |
What I find funny is that the lack of or lack of distribution of PPE is the governments fault somehow, I wonder how many managers this doctor or any of the others have that have been complaining about PPE? I could understand it if the person complaining to the government was the head of the nhs or a very senior manager.
It is akin to me complaining to my company CEO because there are no big biros or highlighter pens in the stationary cupboard.
Maybe more of the blame and focus should be aimed at the nhs managers and supply chain people who are not distributing what is obviously in the system somewhere? |
Perhaps you should go off and source some evidence that’s what is happening then, because the government is responsible for allocating budget to it.
Much like if your CEO isn’t giving you money for biros, there’s not a lot your manager can do. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:37 - Apr 10 with 562 views | NewcyBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:35 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Aside from that I came back on the 13th Jan and not even Wuhan was in lockdown by then I don't think. [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 15:35]
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Whilst they weren’t in lockdown a lot of places were being hit by the virus.
I was in Ningbo, and a lot of that city was closing up in December, and then early January they were all gearing up for CNY.
They weren’t producing anything near the levels that they do throughout the year. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:38 - Apr 10 with 560 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:32 - Apr 10 by NewcyBlue |
I was in China from 21st November to 17th January.
I can tell you that, whilst it wasn’t a complete lockdown, productivity was nowhere near what the world normally buys from them.
Nowhere near.
I also had the buying power of one of the biggest shipping companies in the world behind me and there was plenty of stuff we couldn’t get. |
I said earlier the CCP have f*cked us royally. I wouldn’t deny that. But we’ve not helped ourselves either. In terms of both action and transparency of those actions.
“Herd immunity” will become a phrase that will haunt the Conservative Party for years to come. Then again probably not, everyone forgot about Grenfell pretty quick. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:40 - Apr 10 with 558 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:43 - Apr 10 by StokieBlue |
No.
You are once again twisting peoples words and you've selectively quoted my post which is frankly rude.
I don't agree at all on PPE as I stated multiple times. You refuse to hear it. You refuse to engage with it.
Lucan was entirely right, it's up to you to prove that government isn't trying to source PPE, not for him to prove it is as you've made the assertion.
You need to step away from the internet, you are turning into a quite unpleasant individual.
SB |
When you admit you lied and I replied to Glassers about ventilators I might take your point on “twisting words” on board, until then your act is rumbled. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:54 - Apr 10 with 533 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:40 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
When you admit you lied and I replied to Glassers about ventilators I might take your point on “twisting words” on board, until then your act is rumbled. |
That's not what happened. I explained it previously and I am not doing it again.
You keep blaming a lack of pandemic level PPE on historical funding, it's clearly wrong as no country has enough gear. I posted WHO links saying there was a shortage. Your points on not trying to source more are totally unsupported by evidence which you should be providing after at least 3 requests.
Will you please stop besmirching my character? You've had a number of posts deleted already that the admin deemed were unacceptable.
SB | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:58 - Apr 10 with 524 views | Leaky |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:35 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
Perhaps you should go off and source some evidence that’s what is happening then, because the government is responsible for allocating budget to it.
Much like if your CEO isn’t giving you money for biros, there’s not a lot your manager can do. |
No you think Matt Hancock orders every thing for the NHS. Then pops off to pick it up in the boot of his car. No it has to filter down through NHS where some one fills in a procurement form probably in triplicate its passed to some else who has to arrange payment. it then has to delivered then distributed. My daughters partner worked in procurement for the MOD. He said it was a nightmare | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:02 - Apr 10 with 519 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:54 - Apr 10 by StokieBlue |
That's not what happened. I explained it previously and I am not doing it again.
You keep blaming a lack of pandemic level PPE on historical funding, it's clearly wrong as no country has enough gear. I posted WHO links saying there was a shortage. Your points on not trying to source more are totally unsupported by evidence which you should be providing after at least 3 requests.
Will you please stop besmirching my character? You've had a number of posts deleted already that the admin deemed were unacceptable.
SB |
https://www.lbc.co.uk/hot-topics/coronavirus/matt-hancock-stands-by-his-claim-uk vs https://www.cityam.com/coronavirus-nhs-warned-in-2016-it-could-not-handle-a-seve
Which one is it though? As they can’t even get their story straight. It’s something even the party have started batting about to shift blame which says something.
I’ll stop besmirching you when you admit you lied about who raised what discussion points in this thread as a stick to falsely beat me with. Until you stop ignoring that (which you’ve don 3 times now) my opinion on that won’t change.
I notice everyone else is ignoring it too. Suppose it doesn’t make for as good a pile on when the person you’re jumping on is correct. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:05 - Apr 10 with 514 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:58 - Apr 10 by Leaky |
No you think Matt Hancock orders every thing for the NHS. Then pops off to pick it up in the boot of his car. No it has to filter down through NHS where some one fills in a procurement form probably in triplicate its passed to some else who has to arrange payment. it then has to delivered then distributed. My daughters partner worked in procurement for the MOD. He said it was a nightmare |
Oh the way the NHS is set up and the money is wastes on suppliers is considerable. I by no stretch think the NHS is perfect.
Doesn’t excuse underfunding it for 10 years though. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:07 - Apr 10 with 507 views | longtimefan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 15:31 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
I acknowledge you have a point. But this point still ignores the fact years of cuts, including PPE gear for an event like this, have lead us to this predicament.
I find no record of us trying to source this stuff in February BTW in relation to your earlier point, only by mid-to-late March, which again adds to my original point. And we also rejected help from
the EU.
I really don’t know how people aren’t connecting these dots.
The findings of whatever enquiries are carried out after this are going to say a lot. And I’d put good money on it those shortages and a lack of dealing with them early enough will play a key part, particularly alongside a delayed lockdown that added unneeded pressure because of incorrect forecasting. |
“ But this point still ignores the fact years of cuts, including PPE gear for an event like this, have lead us to this predicament.”
Seeing as you’re asking others for evidence can you supply some that your assertion that PPE levels have been cut is correct? Sure there are shortages, but that is different to cuts. |  | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:08 - Apr 10 with 504 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:07 - Apr 10 by longtimefan |
“ But this point still ignores the fact years of cuts, including PPE gear for an event like this, have lead us to this predicament.”
Seeing as you’re asking others for evidence can you supply some that your assertion that PPE levels have been cut is correct? Sure there are shortages, but that is different to cuts. |
https://www.cityam.com/coronavirus-nhs-warned-in-2016-it-could-not-handle-a-seve
Linked above too. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:11 - Apr 10 with 498 views | StokieBlue |
That doesn't support what your saying about the levels being cut which is what he asked.
SB | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:11 - Apr 10 with 500 views | StokieBlue |
Those articles don't support your point though.
Hancock clearly says they are prepared as well as can be but you can't be totally prepared for a new disease with regards to exactly what equipment might be needed. That is correct. I do think they could have had a bit more but it would never have been enough and it might have turned out to be the wrong stuff if the virus was different.
In the second article the senior spokesman says:
“People might say we have blood on our hands, but the fact is that it’s always easier to manage the last outbreak than the one coming down the track. Hindsight is a beautiful thing.”
That is what a number of people have been saying. Not a single health service in the world was ready for a pandemic because you can't be. That was for a flu based pandemic with similar mortality but a lower r0 rate so not as bad as what we have at the moment with less cases.
I'm not going do respond to your last point, I've explained it numerous times already.
SB | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:14 - Apr 10 with 490 views | longtimefan |
That’s says the NHS failed a stress test. It doesn’t say PPE had been cut, it just says we wouldn’t have enough. Have we ever? Has any country? | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:18 - Apr 10 with 486 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:14 - Apr 10 by longtimefan |
That’s says the NHS failed a stress test. It doesn’t say PPE had been cut, it just says we wouldn’t have enough. Have we ever? Has any country? |
Cuts may have been the wrong word and I apologise there. But a report being suppressed we were underprepared is pretty damning.
But we do also have a shortage of beds and staff of which cuts do impact on how we cope with this. Throw “herd immunity” into that mix and here we are.
All these dots connect as to how we are coping. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:20 - Apr 10 with 483 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:11 - Apr 10 by StokieBlue |
Those articles don't support your point though.
Hancock clearly says they are prepared as well as can be but you can't be totally prepared for a new disease with regards to exactly what equipment might be needed. That is correct. I do think they could have had a bit more but it would never have been enough and it might have turned out to be the wrong stuff if the virus was different.
In the second article the senior spokesman says:
“People might say we have blood on our hands, but the fact is that it’s always easier to manage the last outbreak than the one coming down the track. Hindsight is a beautiful thing.”
That is what a number of people have been saying. Not a single health service in the world was ready for a pandemic because you can't be. That was for a flu based pandemic with similar mortality but a lower r0 rate so not as bad as what we have at the moment with less cases.
I'm not going do respond to your last point, I've explained it numerous times already.
SB |
It’s a simple yes or no question. Did you post and insist I changed the subject to be about ventilators on page two, when I wasn’t even online when the subject switched that way? | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:22 - Apr 10 with 478 views | xrayspecs |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:05 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
Oh the way the NHS is set up and the money is wastes on suppliers is considerable. I by no stretch think the NHS is perfect.
Doesn’t excuse underfunding it for 10 years though. |
I work in the health sector and have day to day dealings with a number of senior folk in the NHS. They started planning for Covid19 in Jan/Feb, which included sourcing necessary supplies.
The challenge they faced was two-fold. The level of PPE/healthcare resources needed for Covid19 in the UK alone is simply many, many time what you need in normal times. Think about how many extra beds are being created including multiple Nightingale hospitals, how much critical care kit (ventilators, CPAP, oxygen) we need. That staff are having to change their PPE kit multiple times each day. It is also critical care medicines, the production of which has been ramped up globally but this is also struggling to keep pace.
No sensible healthcare system would have these levels of resource in their supply chain in normal times as most of the kit would go out of date before it is used.
The second issue was that as soon as healthcare systems realised what was happening in China was going to play out all over the world, then everyone was trying to stock up at the same time. It is a more serious version of what has happened in the supermarkets, the demand far exceeded the short term supply, so shortages were common.
The NHS is actually very good at procuring supplies in normal times, it uses its dominant purchasing position quite effectively. I cannot comment on whether supplies are wasted once in the system.
NHS "underfunding" is simply not an issue here, it is the global imbalance between demand and supply. The government has given the NHS a blank cheque to manage Covid19, as it has to the broader economy, more or less. So you are clutching at straws with that point.
Hope this helps? | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:29 - Apr 10 with 462 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 16:22 - Apr 10 by xrayspecs |
I work in the health sector and have day to day dealings with a number of senior folk in the NHS. They started planning for Covid19 in Jan/Feb, which included sourcing necessary supplies.
The challenge they faced was two-fold. The level of PPE/healthcare resources needed for Covid19 in the UK alone is simply many, many time what you need in normal times. Think about how many extra beds are being created including multiple Nightingale hospitals, how much critical care kit (ventilators, CPAP, oxygen) we need. That staff are having to change their PPE kit multiple times each day. It is also critical care medicines, the production of which has been ramped up globally but this is also struggling to keep pace.
No sensible healthcare system would have these levels of resource in their supply chain in normal times as most of the kit would go out of date before it is used.
The second issue was that as soon as healthcare systems realised what was happening in China was going to play out all over the world, then everyone was trying to stock up at the same time. It is a more serious version of what has happened in the supermarkets, the demand far exceeded the short term supply, so shortages were common.
The NHS is actually very good at procuring supplies in normal times, it uses its dominant purchasing position quite effectively. I cannot comment on whether supplies are wasted once in the system.
NHS "underfunding" is simply not an issue here, it is the global imbalance between demand and supply. The government has given the NHS a blank cheque to manage Covid19, as it has to the broader economy, more or less. So you are clutching at straws with that point.
Hope this helps? |
This is a well worded evidence-based response and I’ll concede there.
Why they have to continually lie about it and keep people in the dark about it though I don’t know. What are the estimates to realistically get protective gear in time?
And surely even with this level of stuff going on it would make sense that having a better funded NHS would have left us in a better situation to cope? That’s pretty simple, right? [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 16:30]
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