| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 07:48 - Jul 23 with 1714 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 07:39 - Jul 23 by ITFCfatso |
Morning. regardin the new found veiws he developed,i get that maybe they arnt the most healthy or proactive.but I would no way consider these as "far right".i dont think the avrage workin class right wing man or woman in Britain is far right but I think when they are surrounded by left wing lunacy and terms are frivoulously thrown around like"nazi" and "racist" it not only cheapens actual racism but it also disenfranchizes reasonal people who have genuine concerns about immigration, borders, the eu, Islamic extremism etc
in the same way it wouldnt be productive to call peolpe who support the nhs as commie scum or people who want denuclearisation as "pussies".
:)
Fatso |
What would you say constitute legitimate concerns about immigration that don't just end up being about racism of xenophobia once you get to the heart of them?
I'm also still curious to hear about all these immoral far left views that have become normalised that you made reference to before. And the idea of people being surrounded by 'left wing lunacy' is pure fantasy. The popular press in the UK is overwhelmingly right of centre. In my lifetime we've had twice as many years of Tory government than we have of Labour, and that Labour government really wasn't left wing, it was very centrist. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:21 - Jul 23 with 1671 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 07:48 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
What would you say constitute legitimate concerns about immigration that don't just end up being about racism of xenophobia once you get to the heart of them?
I'm also still curious to hear about all these immoral far left views that have become normalised that you made reference to before. And the idea of people being surrounded by 'left wing lunacy' is pure fantasy. The popular press in the UK is overwhelmingly right of centre. In my lifetime we've had twice as many years of Tory government than we have of Labour, and that Labour government really wasn't left wing, it was very centrist. |
Undercutting of wages, changing the faces of small communities, public services not being able to cater for large growths in population sizes, in certain cases the utter lawlessness of communities that have immigrated. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:32 - Jul 23 with 1649 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:21 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
Undercutting of wages, changing the faces of small communities, public services not being able to cater for large growths in population sizes, in certain cases the utter lawlessness of communities that have immigrated. |
Undercutting of wages is really an issue of unscrupulous employers, but in any case the evidence suggests that overall immigration has minimal impact on wages, with a less than 1% impact on the lowest paid (a group that mostly consists of other immigrants) and no negative impact on more highly paid roles. Changing the faces of small communities is a bit of a vague one. It sounds like people getting upset at hearing foreign voices that they aren't used to. Immigration makes a net contribution to public services, in terms of both funding them and staffing them. An ageing population and years of underfunding are far bigger issues. The last point, I am not sure what you're getting at but it sounds like a Daily Mail headline. If there are groups of immigrants that are criminals we can deport them and have always been able to do so. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 8:33]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:44 - Jul 23 with 1626 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:32 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
Undercutting of wages is really an issue of unscrupulous employers, but in any case the evidence suggests that overall immigration has minimal impact on wages, with a less than 1% impact on the lowest paid (a group that mostly consists of other immigrants) and no negative impact on more highly paid roles. Changing the faces of small communities is a bit of a vague one. It sounds like people getting upset at hearing foreign voices that they aren't used to. Immigration makes a net contribution to public services, in terms of both funding them and staffing them. An ageing population and years of underfunding are far bigger issues. The last point, I am not sure what you're getting at but it sounds like a Daily Mail headline. If there are groups of immigrants that are criminals we can deport them and have always been able to do so. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 8:33]
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Whether it is unscrupulous employers or not, it still happens in many industries, low skilled especially. It isn't the fault of the immigrants, but it is still them that are the face of the issue.
Changing faces of small communities isn't that vague, there are areas in town where every shop is now a 'foreign shop', Norwich Road in Ipswich a big example. Someone like my wife doesn't like walking down there as it is full of men who hang around shops leering at girls that go past. Hanging around in shop doorways and communities is very much an immigrant thing and something I know the council have tried to explain to them, it was better for a while but has gone back to how it was. Lots of street drinking.
There are also villages around in rural towns where a lot of immigrants are attracted for work where the town, places like Wisbech and those in the Fens. I think it is a fair point that those who are more comfortable with diversity and change have traditionally moved to the big cities to embrace it, and those who aren't stayed home in the towns and have now had it thrust upon them.
Whilst immigration is a net contributor in terms of funds and staffing, do you think that is spread equally across the country? I agree re the public services, but I've had experience of being passed up for things because of immigrants (Health visitor around first child), I have friends with kids at primary schools where 30+ languages spoken, where their parents evenings are a mess because they have to have so many translators there they end up a complete waste of time etc.
In Ipswich there is a crime problem with regards to Romanians, big issues, because they just do not care about getting caught. There are Romanian police officers coming over to live in the community to try and help with it. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:45 - Jul 23 with 1615 views | itfcjoe |
I don't doubt these facts, but to deny there are any legitimate concerns re immigration which aren't just racist or xenophobic is wrong in my view | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:48 - Jul 23 with 1601 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:45 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
I don't doubt these facts, but to deny there are any legitimate concerns re immigration which aren't just racist or xenophobic is wrong in my view |
If concerns aren't founded on facts then are they still legitimate? On the feels versus reals debate I still very much err on the side of reals. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:55 - Jul 23 with 1580 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:48 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
If concerns aren't founded on facts then are they still legitimate? On the feels versus reals debate I still very much err on the side of reals. |
Conflicting facts can be true - just because nationally they are a net contributor doesn't mean that in some/many areas their public services are stretched further and further beyond breaking point | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:01 - Jul 23 with 1564 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:55 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
Conflicting facts can be true - just because nationally they are a net contributor doesn't mean that in some/many areas their public services are stretched further and further beyond breaking point |
On the point of health visitors that you gave as an example, that's a service that has been cut to the bone because of austerity. It used to be a genuine universal service but hasn't been for quite a while. They have to prioritise those with the greatest need, some of those with the greatest need will be migrants. Why is that an issue? Migrants also contribute to the economy, indeed they are net contributors, so why should they not be given a service if they are deemed in need where others are not? I guess it comes down to mindset, some people have a pretty fixed belief that being born here should give you entitlement over anyone not born here. That's not a position I subscribe to myself. And essentially it seems to come down to blaming immigrants for internal political decisions around not funding public services properly for the last decade now. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:04]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:07 - Jul 23 with 1552 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:01 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
On the point of health visitors that you gave as an example, that's a service that has been cut to the bone because of austerity. It used to be a genuine universal service but hasn't been for quite a while. They have to prioritise those with the greatest need, some of those with the greatest need will be migrants. Why is that an issue? Migrants also contribute to the economy, indeed they are net contributors, so why should they not be given a service if they are deemed in need where others are not? I guess it comes down to mindset, some people have a pretty fixed belief that being born here should give you entitlement over anyone not born here. That's not a position I subscribe to myself. And essentially it seems to come down to blaming immigrants for internal political decisions around not funding public services properly for the last decade now. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:04]
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Well in my NCT Group of 8 new parents, and the intake before of 8 we were the only ones deemed not to require it, and were told it was because we both worked and English was our 1st langauge so we were less at risk.
It's not about mindset, it's the fact that it was deemed ok for us to miss out on what we had repeatedly been told was an important and key service with the reason given basically that we were English.
I'm a net contributor to the economy, I'm sure mine and my wife's contributions far outstrip the majority of immigrants in Ipswich. It's nothing to do with expecting more because I was born here, but I certainly shouldn't be expecting/getting less because I was born here
EDIT - The majority of this is beside the point anyway, it's clear that there are costs to some of the population and some communities within it because of immigration whether they are net contributors in total or not [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:13]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:12 - Jul 23 with 1543 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:07 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
Well in my NCT Group of 8 new parents, and the intake before of 8 we were the only ones deemed not to require it, and were told it was because we both worked and English was our 1st langauge so we were less at risk.
It's not about mindset, it's the fact that it was deemed ok for us to miss out on what we had repeatedly been told was an important and key service with the reason given basically that we were English.
I'm a net contributor to the economy, I'm sure mine and my wife's contributions far outstrip the majority of immigrants in Ipswich. It's nothing to do with expecting more because I was born here, but I certainly shouldn't be expecting/getting less because I was born here
EDIT - The majority of this is beside the point anyway, it's clear that there are costs to some of the population and some communities within it because of immigration whether they are net contributors in total or not [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:13]
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It is about mindset. You should be annoyed that a universal service has been so drastically cut that it's no longer universal but instead you're blaming immigrants and suggesting it's not right that those deemed to have a greater need than you shouldn't get the service over you and that where you were born is a factor in this. It's all rather All Lives Matter this approach from you, Joe. Disappointing.
Edit - people are missing about because of austerity, not because of people moving to the UK and contributing to our economy. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:17]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:18 - Jul 23 with 1539 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 08:32 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
Undercutting of wages is really an issue of unscrupulous employers, but in any case the evidence suggests that overall immigration has minimal impact on wages, with a less than 1% impact on the lowest paid (a group that mostly consists of other immigrants) and no negative impact on more highly paid roles. Changing the faces of small communities is a bit of a vague one. It sounds like people getting upset at hearing foreign voices that they aren't used to. Immigration makes a net contribution to public services, in terms of both funding them and staffing them. An ageing population and years of underfunding are far bigger issues. The last point, I am not sure what you're getting at but it sounds like a Daily Mail headline. If there are groups of immigrants that are criminals we can deport them and have always been able to do so. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 8:33]
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Your conversation with Joe convinces me even more that Labour needs to reconnect with the white working class. Especially a section of that group who are poorly educated.
Everything you have just posted is correct. I’ve argued many of the points You have raised with people until I’m blue in the face. But they don’t accept it. And the reason many dint is that they feel that they have been disenfranchised by the people who used to represent them.
We now have the Tory party, the Tory party ffs, who have a better connect with white working class people than the Labour Party. Hence the fall of the Red wall.
When I say connect, what I mean is they have fulled and exploited the perception that immigrants have been getting preferential treatment over them.
I think we can trace this back to Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy. That’s the moment I believe Labour began not to understand the very people they were supposed to represent. And we can follow it through to Emily Thornberry and her “I’ve never seen anything like it” comment when confronted with a council house that had a St George flag on display.
The left wing intelligentsia have given up trying to engage with those who believe they have been disenfranchised.
So when you say that immigrants are net contributors to the U.K.economy and that it so the fault of successive governments not reinvesting that net contribution into improving infrastructure, you are100% right. But left wing politicians gave up having this debate with their constituents. It was easier to call them bigots when they complained that the schools were overcrowded or they couldn’t get a home when an immigrant could.
Same with unscrupulous employers who will take on immigrants who are prepared to work for less than many British born people. No engagement with them. Label them bigots.
They see the Labour conference awash with Palestinian flags as a debate in Brexit is sidelined in favour for one in Palestine, and they can be forgiven for thinking that the party of the working class cares more for the West Bank in Palestine than the west end of Sunderland.
Add into the mix a bombardment of social media messages and memes like the ones I highlighted in my previous post telling people how immigrants are taking their jobs and their homes and they have nobody willing to engage with them and counter those arguments.
So the words “legitimate concerns” should really read as “perceived legitimate concerns”.
Engagement, engagement, engagement. Not dismissal, dismissal, dismissal.
I’d like to have posted more in this and expanded my thinking more but I have to get to work. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:28]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:20 - Jul 23 with 1534 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:12 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
It is about mindset. You should be annoyed that a universal service has been so drastically cut that it's no longer universal but instead you're blaming immigrants and suggesting it's not right that those deemed to have a greater need than you shouldn't get the service over you and that where you were born is a factor in this. It's all rather All Lives Matter this approach from you, Joe. Disappointing.
Edit - people are missing about because of austerity, not because of people moving to the UK and contributing to our economy. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:17]
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What about the other examples, 30+ languages being spoken at a school giving teachers an impossible job and hindering progress of children whose first language is English?
Whilst the public services have been cut, the stretch wouldn't need to be as severe without these further pressures.
There are two issues at play with these and from both sides it makes it worse. The population of Ipswich has risen 15k from 2001 to 2011, and no doubt a lot more since then - a lot of that is immigration. Even well funded public services can't keep up with that. Especially when a number of immigratns in Ipswich are here doing low paid jobs, living in ivercrowded accomodation so barely paying tax, often sending as much money as they can home so not as much investment in the local economy | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:36 - Jul 23 with 1505 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:20 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
What about the other examples, 30+ languages being spoken at a school giving teachers an impossible job and hindering progress of children whose first language is English?
Whilst the public services have been cut, the stretch wouldn't need to be as severe without these further pressures.
There are two issues at play with these and from both sides it makes it worse. The population of Ipswich has risen 15k from 2001 to 2011, and no doubt a lot more since then - a lot of that is immigration. Even well funded public services can't keep up with that. Especially when a number of immigratns in Ipswich are here doing low paid jobs, living in ivercrowded accomodation so barely paying tax, often sending as much money as they can home so not as much investment in the local economy |
What's your evidence around that first point? Lots of schools where multiple languages are spoken manage to flourish. See this one in Peterborough for example: https://theguardian.com/education/2013/feb/28/school-20-languages-gladstone-prim
Or closer to home in Suffolk, this article ( https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/suffolk-130-languages-spoken-in-county-s-schools-1-3 says the following:
"Education chiefs insist the large numbers of pupils for whom English is not their native tongue doesn’t affect the quality of education on offer, provided it is managed correctly."
Again, this feels a lot like feels rather than reals, as does the rest of your post. It's clear you have concerns about immigration, and I am sure they feel legitimate to you. A lot of it is down to mindset, however. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:49 - Jul 23 with 1488 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:20 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
What about the other examples, 30+ languages being spoken at a school giving teachers an impossible job and hindering progress of children whose first language is English?
Whilst the public services have been cut, the stretch wouldn't need to be as severe without these further pressures.
There are two issues at play with these and from both sides it makes it worse. The population of Ipswich has risen 15k from 2001 to 2011, and no doubt a lot more since then - a lot of that is immigration. Even well funded public services can't keep up with that. Especially when a number of immigratns in Ipswich are here doing low paid jobs, living in ivercrowded accomodation so barely paying tax, often sending as much money as they can home so not as much investment in the local economy |
The biggest problem with austerity is that it makes it impossible to cope with increased demand.
The sort of increased demand Joe highlights. That increased demand is in many cases caused by immigration.
It is understandable why some people hold the views they do about immigration. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:54 - Jul 23 with 1468 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:49 - Jul 23 by Pinewoodblue |
The biggest problem with austerity is that it makes it impossible to cope with increased demand.
The sort of increased demand Joe highlights. That increased demand is in many cases caused by immigration.
It is understandable why some people hold the views they do about immigration. |
But then we're in a catch 22 aren't we? Because without immigration to fill skills gaps in public services and without immigration making an overall net contribution to the public purse we'd be worse off. We can't have our cake and eat it, we can't have immigrants coming to the UK and contributing whilst not using any of our public services.
The government and a compliant media have done a great job of making immigrants and the EU more recently the focus of blame, so on that basis I understand why people blame immigrants. They've been very clearly guided in that direction. That doesn't mean that the root cause of the issues we are facing as a society is immigration, in fact most evidence suggests it's not. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:55]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:07 - Jul 23 with 1446 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:54 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
But then we're in a catch 22 aren't we? Because without immigration to fill skills gaps in public services and without immigration making an overall net contribution to the public purse we'd be worse off. We can't have our cake and eat it, we can't have immigrants coming to the UK and contributing whilst not using any of our public services.
The government and a compliant media have done a great job of making immigrants and the EU more recently the focus of blame, so on that basis I understand why people blame immigrants. They've been very clearly guided in that direction. That doesn't mean that the root cause of the issues we are facing as a society is immigration, in fact most evidence suggests it's not. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:55]
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Immigration is far too nuanced to be able to be bracketed as one thing.
When skills gaps are fruit pickers earning £50 a day, barely touching any income tax paid, living in shared accommodation so council tax being paid is next to nothing then they are not net contributors.
I’m some communities, especially rural and small town, or based around factories then the majority of the immigrants are not net contributors, that leaves massive discrepancies and massive strains on localised public services | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:11 - Jul 23 with 1443 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:54 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
But then we're in a catch 22 aren't we? Because without immigration to fill skills gaps in public services and without immigration making an overall net contribution to the public purse we'd be worse off. We can't have our cake and eat it, we can't have immigrants coming to the UK and contributing whilst not using any of our public services.
The government and a compliant media have done a great job of making immigrants and the EU more recently the focus of blame, so on that basis I understand why people blame immigrants. They've been very clearly guided in that direction. That doesn't mean that the root cause of the issues we are facing as a society is immigration, in fact most evidence suggests it's not. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:55]
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The thing you don’t seem to grasp is that we have a conservative government with a massive majority because that represents the will of the people.
Telling people they are wrong isn’t going to help bring about change.
I know lots of people who voted Labour for most of their lives but have voted conservative in recent elections.
For example a staunch labour supporter, and trade union representative in the north of England who has voted conservative in last 3-4 elections. He no longer recognizes the Town he was born it, so much so that he hasn’t been therefor five years, although he only lives 10 miles from the street in which he was born. He has genuine concerns, he knows in his own mind the cause and Labour no longer represents his needs.
This thread has moved a long way from right wing extremists. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:14 - Jul 23 with 1441 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:07 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
Immigration is far too nuanced to be able to be bracketed as one thing.
When skills gaps are fruit pickers earning £50 a day, barely touching any income tax paid, living in shared accommodation so council tax being paid is next to nothing then they are not net contributors.
I’m some communities, especially rural and small town, or based around factories then the majority of the immigrants are not net contributors, that leaves massive discrepancies and massive strains on localised public services |
What's your evidence for the above? And again, it's not really the fault of immigrants that fruit picking is low paid and that there aren't sufficient numbers of local people willing to do the work. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:16 - Jul 23 with 1438 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:11 - Jul 23 by Pinewoodblue |
The thing you don’t seem to grasp is that we have a conservative government with a massive majority because that represents the will of the people.
Telling people they are wrong isn’t going to help bring about change.
I know lots of people who voted Labour for most of their lives but have voted conservative in recent elections.
For example a staunch labour supporter, and trade union representative in the north of England who has voted conservative in last 3-4 elections. He no longer recognizes the Town he was born it, so much so that he hasn’t been therefor five years, although he only lives 10 miles from the street in which he was born. He has genuine concerns, he knows in his own mind the cause and Labour no longer represents his needs.
This thread has moved a long way from right wing extremists. |
I am fully aware we have a Conservative government. That doesnt mean I have to be happy about it. I apologise if using facts and reason comes across as me telling people they are wrong but as I said previously I tend to favour facts and evidence over feeling. I know that makes me out of step with much of the public but there we go. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:21 - Jul 23 with 1419 views | TractorWood |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:03 - Jul 21 by Libero |
So basically, this is why I'm going down the worm hole currently.
I'm interested in the wave of "new" fascism that has essentially been rolling into the mainstream culture of the west from about 2014 onward.
From conception right through to where we are now, the big players, the powers and institutions that cultivate these extremists in plain sight.
2016 was a breakthrough moment both here and across the Atlantic for people who hold these values and the rate in which it's not only spreading but becoming normalised is a bit shocking.
I'm interested in how so many seemingly "normal" blokes in the west can become indoctrinated, the military looks like fertile stomping ground from my reading, but I find the reluctance to accept/outright state this in all reports interesting.
It kinda makes me think about what's happening with the police currently and how they're under spotlight in the UK and US for their practices and some of the people they employ.
Are the former soldiers who committed any of the well known and published atrocities against civilians in Iraq any different to those in the police doing so on their own streets?
Lots of questions floating around in my mind, things I believe are connected but that I need to do more reading/research on to be confident in drawing causational lines and links.
Equal parts fascinating and terrifying in my opinion. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 10:06]
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I think you go through a worm hole or down a rabbit hole. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:22 - Jul 23 with 1418 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:21 - Jul 23 by TractorWood |
I think you go through a worm hole or down a rabbit hole. |
Or into a K hole. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:45 - Jul 23 with 1388 views | Darth_Koont |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:18 - Jul 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Your conversation with Joe convinces me even more that Labour needs to reconnect with the white working class. Especially a section of that group who are poorly educated.
Everything you have just posted is correct. I’ve argued many of the points You have raised with people until I’m blue in the face. But they don’t accept it. And the reason many dint is that they feel that they have been disenfranchised by the people who used to represent them.
We now have the Tory party, the Tory party ffs, who have a better connect with white working class people than the Labour Party. Hence the fall of the Red wall.
When I say connect, what I mean is they have fulled and exploited the perception that immigrants have been getting preferential treatment over them.
I think we can trace this back to Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy. That’s the moment I believe Labour began not to understand the very people they were supposed to represent. And we can follow it through to Emily Thornberry and her “I’ve never seen anything like it” comment when confronted with a council house that had a St George flag on display.
The left wing intelligentsia have given up trying to engage with those who believe they have been disenfranchised.
So when you say that immigrants are net contributors to the U.K.economy and that it so the fault of successive governments not reinvesting that net contribution into improving infrastructure, you are100% right. But left wing politicians gave up having this debate with their constituents. It was easier to call them bigots when they complained that the schools were overcrowded or they couldn’t get a home when an immigrant could.
Same with unscrupulous employers who will take on immigrants who are prepared to work for less than many British born people. No engagement with them. Label them bigots.
They see the Labour conference awash with Palestinian flags as a debate in Brexit is sidelined in favour for one in Palestine, and they can be forgiven for thinking that the party of the working class cares more for the West Bank in Palestine than the west end of Sunderland.
Add into the mix a bombardment of social media messages and memes like the ones I highlighted in my previous post telling people how immigrants are taking their jobs and their homes and they have nobody willing to engage with them and counter those arguments.
So the words “legitimate concerns” should really read as “perceived legitimate concerns”.
Engagement, engagement, engagement. Not dismissal, dismissal, dismissal.
I’d like to have posted more in this and expanded my thinking more but I have to get to work. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:28]
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Interesting that these perceptions are very similar to the ones in the predominantly rightwing media.
The unions, councils, local CLPs and the members are of course connected to ordinary people more than other parties but they're presented as loons and out of touch.
What you describe is most clearly seen in the PLP. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 10:47]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:47 - Jul 23 with 1383 views | Libero |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:21 - Jul 23 by TractorWood |
I think you go through a worm hole or down a rabbit hole. |
Wonderful pedantry, thank you for your insight. |  | | |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:53 - Jul 23 with 1356 views | footers |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:47 - Jul 23 by Libero |
Wonderful pedantry, thank you for your insight. |
It's not pedantry if you're trying to cross the universe by tunneling down a warren. That'd be a complete waste of time (as I found out). |  |
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