| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:58 - Jul 23 with 4864 views | Libero |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:53 - Jul 23 by footers |
It's not pedantry if you're trying to cross the universe by tunneling down a warren. That'd be a complete waste of time (as I found out). |
Tell that to this dude...
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:03 - Jul 23 with 4848 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:49 - Jul 23 by Pinewoodblue |
The biggest problem with austerity is that it makes it impossible to cope with increased demand.
The sort of increased demand Joe highlights. That increased demand is in many cases caused by immigration.
It is understandable why some people hold the views they do about immigration. |
I'm not sure there's the evidence to show that demand is being driven by immigration to the point that it needs to be singled out as the main cause. An aging population and unhealthy lifestyles put far more pressure on the NHS for example, yet we don't talk about deporting or demonising old folks or the obese/smokers, etc.
I may be wrong, but I looked into quite a few stats ads part of the smear against immigrants during the Brexit debacle, and if I remember rightly the evidence doesn't match the rhetoric being used against immigrants.
Many people hold unsavoury views about immigrants because their fears have been stoked for decades by certain elements in UK society. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:05 - Jul 23 with 4838 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:03 - Jul 23 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm not sure there's the evidence to show that demand is being driven by immigration to the point that it needs to be singled out as the main cause. An aging population and unhealthy lifestyles put far more pressure on the NHS for example, yet we don't talk about deporting or demonising old folks or the obese/smokers, etc.
I may be wrong, but I looked into quite a few stats ads part of the smear against immigrants during the Brexit debacle, and if I remember rightly the evidence doesn't match the rhetoric being used against immigrants.
Many people hold unsavoury views about immigrants because their fears have been stoked for decades by certain elements in UK society. |
I've posted some evidence on this thread that contradicts the narratives about immigration being a burden on public services and driving down wages, but the extent to which people are prepared to modify their opinion based on such evidence seems to be limited. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:08 - Jul 23 with 4821 views | eireblue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:18 - Jul 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Your conversation with Joe convinces me even more that Labour needs to reconnect with the white working class. Especially a section of that group who are poorly educated.
Everything you have just posted is correct. I’ve argued many of the points You have raised with people until I’m blue in the face. But they don’t accept it. And the reason many dint is that they feel that they have been disenfranchised by the people who used to represent them.
We now have the Tory party, the Tory party ffs, who have a better connect with white working class people than the Labour Party. Hence the fall of the Red wall.
When I say connect, what I mean is they have fulled and exploited the perception that immigrants have been getting preferential treatment over them.
I think we can trace this back to Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy. That’s the moment I believe Labour began not to understand the very people they were supposed to represent. And we can follow it through to Emily Thornberry and her “I’ve never seen anything like it” comment when confronted with a council house that had a St George flag on display.
The left wing intelligentsia have given up trying to engage with those who believe they have been disenfranchised.
So when you say that immigrants are net contributors to the U.K.economy and that it so the fault of successive governments not reinvesting that net contribution into improving infrastructure, you are100% right. But left wing politicians gave up having this debate with their constituents. It was easier to call them bigots when they complained that the schools were overcrowded or they couldn’t get a home when an immigrant could.
Same with unscrupulous employers who will take on immigrants who are prepared to work for less than many British born people. No engagement with them. Label them bigots.
They see the Labour conference awash with Palestinian flags as a debate in Brexit is sidelined in favour for one in Palestine, and they can be forgiven for thinking that the party of the working class cares more for the West Bank in Palestine than the west end of Sunderland.
Add into the mix a bombardment of social media messages and memes like the ones I highlighted in my previous post telling people how immigrants are taking their jobs and their homes and they have nobody willing to engage with them and counter those arguments.
So the words “legitimate concerns” should really read as “perceived legitimate concerns”.
Engagement, engagement, engagement. Not dismissal, dismissal, dismissal.
I’d like to have posted more in this and expanded my thinking more but I have to get to work. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 9:28]
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I am not entirely sure that timeline is correct.
But I don’t really have the time to go off and look through lots of archive footage and articles.
However, what I recall is that people like Farage, kept repeating the line, it is not racist to talk about immigration.
Before that, when he was banging on about the EU, nobody was calling people that wanted to talk about immigration as racist. The BNP were called racist, because they were racist.
He was, I hate to say this, very cleverly using the “when did you last beat your wife” gambit.
Farage himself was racist. We even exchanged a few posts about this, you didn’t think one of the things he was saying was racist, I did.
But he did what all racists do very well, created a divide.
And that divide is still being played out in this thread.
Also, he managed to get people to use the term “immigration” instead of “free movement of labour” as it applies to U.K. and EU citizens.
What happened then, was due to austerity, Farage now had an audience that needed someone to blame.
And what both Labour and the Conservatives then did was to follow the Farage framing of the issue.
Both parties tried to show they were strong on immigration.
Farage was and is a racist.
When the essence of the political dialogue is based on a racist framing of the discussion, then nobody wins apart from the people in a position of privilege and power.
The U.K. now has a racist leader.
The question shouldn’t be, how does a political party connect with a demographic to win.
The question should be, how does a country move away from the politics of racist policy and division.
Policies and messaging designed to appeal to white working class, is still racist.
An anti-racist policy would be one that considers how to support people in need with the existing resource.
An anti-racist policy would be to consider how to support an ageing population with health and social care needs over the next 50 years, with a declining birth rate.
Anti-racist policies should be of equal benefit to people, irrespective of their demographic.
Now, I know the typical line, you can’t act on laudable aims until you are in power, so you have to get the votes.
Unfortunately that leads to an incompetent racist PM. |  | | |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:17 - Jul 23 with 4801 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 10:58 - Jul 23 by Libero |
Tell that to this dude...
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Little known fact - the DVD of Bucky O’Hare has a cock up whereby the first 7 episodes are on disc 2 and the last 6 are on disc 1
Every day is a school day |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:18 - Jul 23 with 4784 views | footers |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:17 - Jul 23 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Little known fact - the DVD of Bucky O’Hare has a cock up whereby the first 7 episodes are on disc 2 and the last 6 are on disc 1
Every day is a school day |
The second half of that sentence wasn't leading where I'd hoped the first would... |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:24 - Jul 23 with 4755 views | Darth_Koont |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:08 - Jul 23 by eireblue |
I am not entirely sure that timeline is correct.
But I don’t really have the time to go off and look through lots of archive footage and articles.
However, what I recall is that people like Farage, kept repeating the line, it is not racist to talk about immigration.
Before that, when he was banging on about the EU, nobody was calling people that wanted to talk about immigration as racist. The BNP were called racist, because they were racist.
He was, I hate to say this, very cleverly using the “when did you last beat your wife” gambit.
Farage himself was racist. We even exchanged a few posts about this, you didn’t think one of the things he was saying was racist, I did.
But he did what all racists do very well, created a divide.
And that divide is still being played out in this thread.
Also, he managed to get people to use the term “immigration” instead of “free movement of labour” as it applies to U.K. and EU citizens.
What happened then, was due to austerity, Farage now had an audience that needed someone to blame.
And what both Labour and the Conservatives then did was to follow the Farage framing of the issue.
Both parties tried to show they were strong on immigration.
Farage was and is a racist.
When the essence of the political dialogue is based on a racist framing of the discussion, then nobody wins apart from the people in a position of privilege and power.
The U.K. now has a racist leader.
The question shouldn’t be, how does a political party connect with a demographic to win.
The question should be, how does a country move away from the politics of racist policy and division.
Policies and messaging designed to appeal to white working class, is still racist.
An anti-racist policy would be one that considers how to support people in need with the existing resource.
An anti-racist policy would be to consider how to support an ageing population with health and social care needs over the next 50 years, with a declining birth rate.
Anti-racist policies should be of equal benefit to people, irrespective of their demographic.
Now, I know the typical line, you can’t act on laudable aims until you are in power, so you have to get the votes.
Unfortunately that leads to an incompetent racist PM. |
Excellent post.
Our politics and political debate over the last decade or more has increasingly been one of divide and conquer populism. As you point out, the natural result of that is the current PM and government, not to mention a punitive Brexit. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 12:54 - Jul 23 with 4682 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 09:49 - Jul 23 by Pinewoodblue |
The biggest problem with austerity is that it makes it impossible to cope with increased demand.
The sort of increased demand Joe highlights. That increased demand is in many cases caused by immigration.
It is understandable why some people hold the views they do about immigration. |
I wonder what the same people views are of those Brits living in the Costa Del Sol? Acting like booked up Brits abroad is fine because they are net contributors? |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:23 - Jul 23 with 4644 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 12:54 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
I wonder what the same people views are of those Brits living in the Costa Del Sol? Acting like booked up Brits abroad is fine because they are net contributors? |
Are they though? They are mostly older so more likely to need medical care and retired so not contributing in terms of income tax or productivity. Nice use of whataboutery though. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:41 - Jul 23 with 4621 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:23 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
Are they though? They are mostly older so more likely to need medical care and retired so not contributing in terms of income tax or productivity. Nice use of whataboutery though. |
Doesn’t matter, immigrants to Spain are net contributors so there are no issues with immigration which can’t be boiled back to Spanish people being racist or xenophobic
http://lastradainternational.org/lsidocs/immigration%20and%20welfare%20in%20spai | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:53 - Jul 23 with 4595 views | Herbivore |
Who exactly is complaining about the British people on the Costa del Sol? You are the only person that has mentioned them. I can only assume, given your views on migrants in the UK, that you also have an issue with Brits abroad. That's good to know but not sure how it really adds to the debate. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:56 - Jul 23 with 4583 views | footers |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:53 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
Who exactly is complaining about the British people on the Costa del Sol? You are the only person that has mentioned them. I can only assume, given your views on migrants in the UK, that you also have an issue with Brits abroad. That's good to know but not sure how it really adds to the debate. |
Just to point out, there are 6.2m immigrants in the UK. I work with dozens of 'em day in, day out. That a small percentage are 'troublemakers' or pick fruit for a living really isn't indicative of immigrants as a whole, as you say Herb. The pressures on services are created by government, not by immigrants. And of course, poorer areas are always more adversely affected by those cuts, including services to the migrant poor as well. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:57 - Jul 23 with 4582 views | SpruceMoose |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:53 - Jul 23 by Herbivore |
Who exactly is complaining about the British people on the Costa del Sol? You are the only person that has mentioned them. I can only assume, given your views on migrants in the UK, that you also have an issue with Brits abroad. That's good to know but not sure how it really adds to the debate. |
I've been told to go home once since I've been here.
But that was by a drunken Irishman.
Otherwise, many people often seem to view white immigrants as the 'right type' of immigrant. Nobody ever seems to get upset by having Swedes move in next door. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:59 - Jul 23 with 4578 views | footers |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:57 - Jul 23 by SpruceMoose |
I've been told to go home once since I've been here.
But that was by a drunken Irishman.
Otherwise, many people often seem to view white immigrants as the 'right type' of immigrant. Nobody ever seems to get upset by having Swedes move in next door. |
Indeed. Both my parents are white immigrants and no one's ever pulled me up on it. Wonder why.
But to add a little fun, my proper English mate, who just so happens to tan well, always used to get called a w*p and sp*c whilst out and about in Nodge! [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 14:00]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:42 - Jul 23 with 4549 views | longtimefan |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 13:59 - Jul 23 by footers |
Indeed. Both my parents are white immigrants and no one's ever pulled me up on it. Wonder why.
But to add a little fun, my proper English mate, who just so happens to tan well, always used to get called a w*p and sp*c whilst out and about in Nodge! [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 14:00]
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Got to say this whole tread seems to mirror much of the issue with the current Labour Party being out of touch with the regions. Joe provides credible evidence of local experiences which may or may not reflect the UK as a whole. He’s then told his experiences are “wrong”. |  | | |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:48 - Jul 23 with 4541 views | footers |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:42 - Jul 23 by longtimefan |
Got to say this whole tread seems to mirror much of the issue with the current Labour Party being out of touch with the regions. Joe provides credible evidence of local experiences which may or may not reflect the UK as a whole. He’s then told his experiences are “wrong”. |
There's been a Conservative government for more than a decade. What have the Tories done, bar Brexit of course, to alleviate any of these problems? Nothing. They've made them worse by imposing austerity on those communities and pitting people against each other. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 14:51]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:50 - Jul 23 with 4533 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 12:54 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
I wonder what the same people views are of those Brits living in the Costa Del Sol? Acting like booked up Brits abroad is fine because they are net contributors? |
Far too many of them are special cases, want to live in Spain but voted for Brexit.
Have one friend who moved to France after the Brexit vote, doesn’t want to register to stay beyond July next year because they will tax him, so he is moving back here after Christmas.
It takes all sorts. |  |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:54 - Jul 23 with 4513 views | SpruceMoose |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:48 - Jul 23 by footers |
There's been a Conservative government for more than a decade. What have the Tories done, bar Brexit of course, to alleviate any of these problems? Nothing. They've made them worse by imposing austerity on those communities and pitting people against each other. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 14:51]
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I can't believe people still can't see this.
Much easier to blame immigrants for all society's ills than stop to consider that because of the way you've voted you might just have helped bring this situation into being I suppose. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:01 - Jul 23 with 4500 views | longtimefan |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:48 - Jul 23 by footers |
There's been a Conservative government for more than a decade. What have the Tories done, bar Brexit of course, to alleviate any of these problems? Nothing. They've made them worse by imposing austerity on those communities and pitting people against each other. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 14:51]
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What have the Tory Party done? They’ve weaponised it and used it to their ends and unfortunately got a massive majority out of it. Aided by the Labour Party ignoring the experiences (perceived or otherwise) of many of their core supporters. | | | |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans (n/t) on 15:16 - Jul 23 with 4469 views | N2_Blue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:08 - Jul 23 by eireblue |
I am not entirely sure that timeline is correct.
But I don’t really have the time to go off and look through lots of archive footage and articles.
However, what I recall is that people like Farage, kept repeating the line, it is not racist to talk about immigration.
Before that, when he was banging on about the EU, nobody was calling people that wanted to talk about immigration as racist. The BNP were called racist, because they were racist.
He was, I hate to say this, very cleverly using the “when did you last beat your wife” gambit.
Farage himself was racist. We even exchanged a few posts about this, you didn’t think one of the things he was saying was racist, I did.
But he did what all racists do very well, created a divide.
And that divide is still being played out in this thread.
Also, he managed to get people to use the term “immigration” instead of “free movement of labour” as it applies to U.K. and EU citizens.
What happened then, was due to austerity, Farage now had an audience that needed someone to blame.
And what both Labour and the Conservatives then did was to follow the Farage framing of the issue.
Both parties tried to show they were strong on immigration.
Farage was and is a racist.
When the essence of the political dialogue is based on a racist framing of the discussion, then nobody wins apart from the people in a position of privilege and power.
The U.K. now has a racist leader.
The question shouldn’t be, how does a political party connect with a demographic to win.
The question should be, how does a country move away from the politics of racist policy and division.
Policies and messaging designed to appeal to white working class, is still racist.
An anti-racist policy would be one that considers how to support people in need with the existing resource.
An anti-racist policy would be to consider how to support an ageing population with health and social care needs over the next 50 years, with a declining birth rate.
Anti-racist policies should be of equal benefit to people, irrespective of their demographic.
Now, I know the typical line, you can’t act on laudable aims until you are in power, so you have to get the votes.
Unfortunately that leads to an incompetent racist PM. |
Superb Post.
Someone who really gets it and understands the issues at play.
I was shut down the other day to say we are becoming more of a racist country rather than less so. Friends said racists are a very small minority. But this government and the whole country has a every growing racist undertone fed by the likes of UKIP and Brexit.
Does anyone believe we are better off as a society before these issues. They have been so so divisive to the point i think the damage is irreversible. The UK is becoming a more and more unpleasant place to live for everyone whether centre, left or right leaning.
Sad really [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 15:18]
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:19 - Jul 23 with 4456 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:42 - Jul 23 by longtimefan |
Got to say this whole tread seems to mirror much of the issue with the current Labour Party being out of touch with the regions. Joe provides credible evidence of local experiences which may or may not reflect the UK as a whole. He’s then told his experiences are “wrong”. |
That's a hot (and wildly inaccurate) take. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:20 - Jul 23 with 4455 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:48 - Jul 23 by footers |
There's been a Conservative government for more than a decade. What have the Tories done, bar Brexit of course, to alleviate any of these problems? Nothing. They've made them worse by imposing austerity on those communities and pitting people against each other. [Post edited 23 Jul 2020 14:51]
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At the last election voters saw another five years of Boris as being more palatable than the alternative offered by Jeremy.
Those poster who supported JC do not yet realise that they no longer represent the Labour Party his successor wants to project.. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:22 - Jul 23 with 4451 views | Herbivore |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:20 - Jul 23 by Pinewoodblue |
At the last election voters saw another five years of Boris as being more palatable than the alternative offered by Jeremy.
Those poster who supported JC do not yet realise that they no longer represent the Labour Party his successor wants to project.. |
Lot of idiots about. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:34 - Jul 23 with 4416 views | itfcjoe |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 14:42 - Jul 23 by longtimefan |
Got to say this whole tread seems to mirror much of the issue with the current Labour Party being out of touch with the regions. Joe provides credible evidence of local experiences which may or may not reflect the UK as a whole. He’s then told his experiences are “wrong”. |
There’s just no acceptance that immigration has made many native peoples lives worse.
I’m not in that group, I’ve consistently voted for the continuation of free movement whether that is remain, Lib Dem or Labour over last few votes. I would like nothing more than for Brexit to be revoked and Johnson and the Tories to be booted out.
But that doesn’t make me blind to the fact that in times of austerity, and with public services being cut to the bone that fast population growth in certain communities does nothing but stretch them further, even if immigrants as a whole are net contributors. | |
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| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 15:51 - Jul 23 with 4370 views | noggin |
| Right wing radicalisation of former veterans on 11:08 - Jul 23 by eireblue |
I am not entirely sure that timeline is correct.
But I don’t really have the time to go off and look through lots of archive footage and articles.
However, what I recall is that people like Farage, kept repeating the line, it is not racist to talk about immigration.
Before that, when he was banging on about the EU, nobody was calling people that wanted to talk about immigration as racist. The BNP were called racist, because they were racist.
He was, I hate to say this, very cleverly using the “when did you last beat your wife” gambit.
Farage himself was racist. We even exchanged a few posts about this, you didn’t think one of the things he was saying was racist, I did.
But he did what all racists do very well, created a divide.
And that divide is still being played out in this thread.
Also, he managed to get people to use the term “immigration” instead of “free movement of labour” as it applies to U.K. and EU citizens.
What happened then, was due to austerity, Farage now had an audience that needed someone to blame.
And what both Labour and the Conservatives then did was to follow the Farage framing of the issue.
Both parties tried to show they were strong on immigration.
Farage was and is a racist.
When the essence of the political dialogue is based on a racist framing of the discussion, then nobody wins apart from the people in a position of privilege and power.
The U.K. now has a racist leader.
The question shouldn’t be, how does a political party connect with a demographic to win.
The question should be, how does a country move away from the politics of racist policy and division.
Policies and messaging designed to appeal to white working class, is still racist.
An anti-racist policy would be one that considers how to support people in need with the existing resource.
An anti-racist policy would be to consider how to support an ageing population with health and social care needs over the next 50 years, with a declining birth rate.
Anti-racist policies should be of equal benefit to people, irrespective of their demographic.
Now, I know the typical line, you can’t act on laudable aims until you are in power, so you have to get the votes.
Unfortunately that leads to an incompetent racist PM. |
Probably the best post I've seen on TWTD, ever. |  |
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