| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered 10:53 - Jul 22 with 17746 views | JakeITFC |
Jean Charles de Mendez on a tube train near Stockwell.
Cressida Dick, in charge of the operation that day, remains commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.
A shocking incident followed by a cover-up and misinformation campaign. |  | | |  |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:26 - Jul 22 with 5708 views | jeera |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 17:39 - Jul 22 by LankHenners |
Another point worth adding to the thread (I can't see that it's been mentioned already) is that for someone they suspected to be involved in the failed bombings the previous day, one of which occurred on a bus, it would seem foolish to allow him to get on a bus and ride on it for a while if they thought there was a chance he might have a bomb on him.
Incompetence doesn't seem strong enough a word for the actions of the police that day. They followed what they thought was a suspected terrorist around London until armed officers were called in who shot him 7 times in the head. 7 times.
The cover-up, lack of accountability and minimal compensation (relative to what had happened) afterwards was and still is a complete disgrace. |
And there was no check as to why he may have rejoined the bus which was the action to initially accelerate their 'suspicions'.
The station he wanted was closed.
Yeah yeah, they didn't have much time, but they had radios, they had resources, but it didn't occur to them to do their job properly, efficiently. They were in hunt and kill mode and that is the point.
The bottom line was that a bloke with tanned skin came out of a building where a known suspect with brown skin also might have been residing.
His [innocent] actions were completely misinterpreted by so-called professional who were seeing exactly what they wanted to see and that is criminal negligence all day long. |  |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:28 - Jul 22 with 5704 views | jeera |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:22 - Jul 22 by sparks |
It is a well recognised phenomenon that law enforcement officers (1) instinctively see / look for evidence that confirms their suspicions- i.e. confirmation bias; and (2) once they have that evidence, can be very difficult to shift from their conclusions. Its human nature, and connected to being in a job where very often, those instincts prove right, and large proportions of the people you deal with lie through their teeth.
Its one of those things that gets covered on jurisprudence modules in law degrees- and I strongly suspect that officers are trained to be on the watch out for their own instincts leading them astray as well.
In the end, though, they are human- and some better at seeing and addressing their own biases than others. |
You see, I would have thought that these people would be trained to think critically and it honestly surprises me to learn that's not necessarily the case.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't mean your average everyday copper.
I've met more than enough of those to know that most can hardly piece together 2 pieces of information at any one given moment. [Post edited 22 Jul 2020 18:33]
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:46 - Jul 22 with 5677 views | sparks |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:28 - Jul 22 by jeera |
You see, I would have thought that these people would be trained to think critically and it honestly surprises me to learn that's not necessarily the case.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't mean your average everyday copper.
I've met more than enough of those to know that most can hardly piece together 2 pieces of information at any one given moment. [Post edited 22 Jul 2020 18:33]
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I am sure they are trained in that way- but humans are fallible. Group think and reinforcement is unavoidable at times, and in the pressure of a potential life and death situation, amidst the fear of that time?
Its a horrible combination of factors and errors. I just dont see any cause to suggest it was malicious. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:57 - Jul 22 with 5648 views | jeera |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:46 - Jul 22 by sparks |
I am sure they are trained in that way- but humans are fallible. Group think and reinforcement is unavoidable at times, and in the pressure of a potential life and death situation, amidst the fear of that time?
Its a horrible combination of factors and errors. I just dont see any cause to suggest it was malicious. |
I don't know where to go with this really, cos we'll go around in circles.
I would say that the willingness of those involved to lie about the events and the attempts to synchronise their stories doesn't suggest genuine remorse to me.
If I had commited that act, upon learning what I had done I would be mortified and if it meant a sentence for me then so be it. That would be the right thing to do.
For me there's an indicator of malice.
We are still back at a place where I feel there is a fine line between pointing out the climate those involved faced, and using it as an excuse.
He was innocent, that fact remains. Which they got wrong and at no point did they apparently stop to even consider they had got it wrong. It really does seem from that point of view that they didn't care enough.
It's the level of self-importance that I've been complaining about. That those wearing the uniform - even if not literally in this case - are in a position to make that call on someone else's life without taking every available precaution first.
For the record, I am aware you're not excusing that, to be clear. | |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:02 - Jul 22 with 5640 views | sparks |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:57 - Jul 22 by jeera |
I don't know where to go with this really, cos we'll go around in circles.
I would say that the willingness of those involved to lie about the events and the attempts to synchronise their stories doesn't suggest genuine remorse to me.
If I had commited that act, upon learning what I had done I would be mortified and if it meant a sentence for me then so be it. That would be the right thing to do.
For me there's an indicator of malice.
We are still back at a place where I feel there is a fine line between pointing out the climate those involved faced, and using it as an excuse.
He was innocent, that fact remains. Which they got wrong and at no point did they apparently stop to even consider they had got it wrong. It really does seem from that point of view that they didn't care enough.
It's the level of self-importance that I've been complaining about. That those wearing the uniform - even if not literally in this case - are in a position to make that call on someone else's life without taking every available precaution first.
For the record, I am aware you're not excusing that, to be clear. |
I think that it is quite reasonable for someone in that position (particualrly the gunmen) to be pretty convinced that they made an honest mistake in tough circumstances, led by other people etc etc. I think you are a rare person if you would genuinely stick your hands up and say "my mistake was criminal, jail me". | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:09 - Jul 22 with 5632 views | bluelagos |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 18:57 - Jul 22 by jeera |
I don't know where to go with this really, cos we'll go around in circles.
I would say that the willingness of those involved to lie about the events and the attempts to synchronise their stories doesn't suggest genuine remorse to me.
If I had commited that act, upon learning what I had done I would be mortified and if it meant a sentence for me then so be it. That would be the right thing to do.
For me there's an indicator of malice.
We are still back at a place where I feel there is a fine line between pointing out the climate those involved faced, and using it as an excuse.
He was innocent, that fact remains. Which they got wrong and at no point did they apparently stop to even consider they had got it wrong. It really does seem from that point of view that they didn't care enough.
It's the level of self-importance that I've been complaining about. That those wearing the uniform - even if not literally in this case - are in a position to make that call on someone else's life without taking every available precaution first.
For the record, I am aware you're not excusing that, to be clear. |
I'm with you Jeera.
Having killed an innocent man they pretty much immediately jumped into "lets cover our arses" mode rather than "lets find out what went wrong" mode. The Met Police have some history in this type of reaction, see the lies they spread about Mark Duggan shooting first and/or their denial of any contact with Ian Thomlinson.
Simply put, there is a culture of corruption and cover up within our police forces and those who seek to deny it and or justify their conduct are part of the problem imho.
I am more than happy to state I think the police are institutionally corrupt and cases such as how they reacted to their killing of innocent Jean Charles De Menezes clearly highlight it imho.
And the inability to properly hold them to account highlights that the IPCC (Now IoPC) are part of the problem in enabling police misconduct to go unchallenged.
Going to leave you and others to it as it'll just wind me up. |  |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:10 - Jul 22 with 5628 views | jeera |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:02 - Jul 22 by sparks |
I think that it is quite reasonable for someone in that position (particualrly the gunmen) to be pretty convinced that they made an honest mistake in tough circumstances, led by other people etc etc. I think you are a rare person if you would genuinely stick your hands up and say "my mistake was criminal, jail me". |
I don't, I really don't.
Looking through the events step by step, it was an absolute catalogue of errors.
One after another, totally avoidable. They didn't even follow their own guidelines.
I know the underlying point here is one of intent/or not. For me they were in full hunt mode, as I said, with no evident thought to the consequences. Once he stepped back onto that bus they were going to have him one way or another.
The man they killed was one of those they are paid to protect. I don't know how anyone can live with that and not spend their days trying to make amends, starting with complete and utter honesty. | |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:35 - Jul 22 with 5606 views | sparks |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:10 - Jul 22 by jeera |
I don't, I really don't.
Looking through the events step by step, it was an absolute catalogue of errors.
One after another, totally avoidable. They didn't even follow their own guidelines.
I know the underlying point here is one of intent/or not. For me they were in full hunt mode, as I said, with no evident thought to the consequences. Once he stepped back onto that bus they were going to have him one way or another.
The man they killed was one of those they are paid to protect. I don't know how anyone can live with that and not spend their days trying to make amends, starting with complete and utter honesty. |
I suspect they struggle with it daily.
I also suspect that they had a lot of legal advice and kept their own counsel as much as possible. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:41 - Jul 22 with 5598 views | jeera |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:35 - Jul 22 by sparks |
I suspect they struggle with it daily.
I also suspect that they had a lot of legal advice and kept their own counsel as much as possible. |
I haven't read the thread thoroughly and am also unsure to what extent the matter of colour was covered in the reports and courts etc.
But has it been pointed out much that the suspect was from Ethiopia and the victim Latin America?
I mean, I know to some people they're all just a bit brown, but you'd like to think wouldn't you? Was there an element of that involved do we know? Me after a few sunny days...that could have been me coming out of some building to someone who doesn't care enough to look at their target with any detail whatsoever.
I'm not going to pretend because that's an aspect of the case I honestly don't know. | |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 23:42 - Jul 22 with 5542 views | Melford |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:11 - Jul 22 by bluelagos |
Cressida Dick doesn't remain Met commissioner. She was promoted to that position.
On the day of the killing of JC De Menzes she was in charge of the operation. That the operation was a total fck up is beyond debate. That she or no other officer was ever held to account for that fck up is beyond debate. That she has now been promoted to the most senior position in the police speaks volumes imho for our systems of holding the police to account.
That the police sprayed a carriage with bullets is deemed by some to be acceptable says a lot about how for some people, they have and will continue to defend the indefensible. That is their perogative I guess. |
Met Police have form for covering up for their own.
This is a depressing watch if you have any faith in justice. Completely bent from start to finish.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/murder-in-the-car-park |  |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 08:33 - Jul 23 with 5487 views | b1079blue |
In true talk radio style long time listener, first time caller.
Yes mistakes were made, however pretty much like covid this year the police/government were in a new situation with new rules and the day before had seen mass murder. Would you like to make that decision?
Are the police corrupt? If anyone of you who works for a large organization do not have experience of an employee that has not "bent the rules" taken a bit extra for themselves then you go to work with your eyes shut. Just because the police have higher standards than anyone else then it doesn't mean the are all perfect. However I certainly wouldn't like to make life and death decisions, deal with road crashes with body bits all over the road and other things that are far too horrible to mention. They are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't (Carl Beech)
Anyone who thinks weapons trained officers are gung ho are quite frankly talking out of their backside.
Was there a cover up? don't know however I do like the David Baddiel line "conspiracy theories are there to make Idiots look like intellectuals" |  | | |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 09:11 - Jul 23 with 5459 views | JakeITFC |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 08:33 - Jul 23 by b1079blue |
In true talk radio style long time listener, first time caller.
Yes mistakes were made, however pretty much like covid this year the police/government were in a new situation with new rules and the day before had seen mass murder. Would you like to make that decision?
Are the police corrupt? If anyone of you who works for a large organization do not have experience of an employee that has not "bent the rules" taken a bit extra for themselves then you go to work with your eyes shut. Just because the police have higher standards than anyone else then it doesn't mean the are all perfect. However I certainly wouldn't like to make life and death decisions, deal with road crashes with body bits all over the road and other things that are far too horrible to mention. They are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't (Carl Beech)
Anyone who thinks weapons trained officers are gung ho are quite frankly talking out of their backside.
Was there a cover up? don't know however I do like the David Baddiel line "conspiracy theories are there to make Idiots look like intellectuals" |
Not sure it's a conspiracy theory is it? The evidence is there to be seen - they clearly shot a man who had nothing to do with the operation that they were on and there were basically no repercussions. | | | |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 09:11 - Jul 23 with 5460 views | bluelagos |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 08:33 - Jul 23 by b1079blue |
In true talk radio style long time listener, first time caller.
Yes mistakes were made, however pretty much like covid this year the police/government were in a new situation with new rules and the day before had seen mass murder. Would you like to make that decision?
Are the police corrupt? If anyone of you who works for a large organization do not have experience of an employee that has not "bent the rules" taken a bit extra for themselves then you go to work with your eyes shut. Just because the police have higher standards than anyone else then it doesn't mean the are all perfect. However I certainly wouldn't like to make life and death decisions, deal with road crashes with body bits all over the road and other things that are far too horrible to mention. They are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't (Carl Beech)
Anyone who thinks weapons trained officers are gung ho are quite frankly talking out of their backside.
Was there a cover up? don't know however I do like the David Baddiel line "conspiracy theories are there to make Idiots look like intellectuals" |
Few points ref police corruption.
Of course there is corruption elsewhere, but that is hardly a denial is it.
But the point I'd make is the police cover up for their colleagues mistakes going as far as to make up and circulate evidence / lies. The lines that JC De Menezes jumped the barriers, that he was wearing baggy clothing, that he was an illegal immigrant etc.came from police sources.
Just as their lies that the officer who killed Duggan had been returning fire was also police lies. Just as the report that they had no contact with Ian Thomlinson.
All lies, from the police to hide the truth. All proven beyond reasonable doubt to be lies.
To label me as you allude to, as a conspirscy theorist I'd simply point out that for years I have been involved in campaigning against police corruption and have been quoted in parliament. I currently have 5 outstsnding complaints against officers in the WMP and SYP and pretty much everything I ever stated about the police lies / cover up /deflection post Hillsborough had been shown to be correct. By a jury.
Given the ongoing court case for perverting the course of justice against 2 ex SYP and their lawyer, we can't discuss the details here but statuing that I am a conspiracy theorist for my position against police corruption is one you may wish to reconsider.
Your other points about walking in their shoes and the difficulty of the job are perfectly fair and reasonable. | |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 09:28 - Jul 23 with 5441 views | hampstead_blue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 14:48 - Jul 22 by sparks |
My impression of this thread is that lots of people have laid into Hampstead, on assumptions about what he thinks or means, rather than based on things he has actually said. I struggle to see anything wrong with the idea of trying to understand the incredibly difficult job those people do, refraining from calling something "murder" when there was clearly no malicious intent (irrespective of the horrendous outcome). None of that is unreasonable. Importantly, neither does it mean that the outcome was not horrendous, or that when bad mistakes are made, they should not be fully explored and accounted for.
I vehemently disagree with a lot of what he says- but on this thread, he doesnt appear to have actually said what people seem to be reacting to... |
It's nice to see that, whilst disagreeing with someone, there is still a chance one's point may get read for it's real intent.
I think everyone knows the names of the group who try and intimidate and brow beat posters with whom they disagree.
It's a small group but vocal.
I find their ignoring the point I made incredibly poor taste considering the outcome of those tragic events.
Thank-you for being reasonable. Go well. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 09:47 - Jul 23 with 5426 views | hampstead_blue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 15:13 - Jul 22 by JakeITFC |
It is more the line of attack that these people are immune from criticism because their job is difficult and that members of the public are not capable of rational thought because they don't have their finger on the trigger, compared to him whose argument gains credibility for being in the forces.
I dispute that because:
a) the evidence shows that they shot (with the intention of killing, no other reason) an unarmed man based on bad intelligence which they doubled down on
b) the police have a history of looking after their own in these situations
and
c) getting a job in the army isn't exactly difficult.
My standpoint remains the same (and I had this very same debate with you Bully on Mark Duggan years ago) - nobody is disputing how difficult a job it is for trained marksmen to decide whether to pull the trigger or not in life or death situations, but when the intelligence is wrong and a person who is unarmed (and therefore unlikely to cause harm to the police or the public) is killed then heads surely have to roll. |
It is more the line of attack that these people are immune from criticism
Your words not mine. Read my posts without prejudice and hopefully you could understand that.
the evidence shows that they shot (with the intention of killing, no other reason)
I could write 1000 words on this.
1) It's impossible to "shoot to injure" in these circumstances. You aim for the main mass and then the head. SImple.
2) They had been told he was a potential suicide bomber -
a) that person would detonate if given a verbal warning
b) you must kill outright. If you injure they can still detonate
I'll stop there to save your embarrassment of insulting the police officers and their dedication to their role.
c) getting a job in the army isn't exactly difficult.
Jog on pussy. Let me take you to my old unit in Colchester. One of my junior soldiers is a senior Officer there, he'll arrange a day there for you. You share that with some young soldiers. They will take you through their training and the way they work. You can probably join in.
There is a 30m range and they can also let you have a few rounds with a weapon.
All very polite.
After supper you can visit 2 Para and they will tell you about targeting and tracking down suspects in a civilian environment (town/city). Also the rules of engagement and just how hard it is to be at the point of the spear.
Then you can swing by the Intelligence Corps team who will give you an idea of humint.
Stop insulting highly trained professionals, listen to those who actually KNOW and have done the job, and retreat back into something in which you have both experience and/or deep knowledge.
This thread should be about potential corruption and how to support the Police in doing their job better.
Murder? You've started at the lowest point of credibility and intellect.
Sorry to be harsh but I would agree that transparency is critical (to where it does not affect operational secrecy). Also armed officers need to be confident that if they open fire they have backing.
Mistakes happen in every job. Some jobs the outcome is the worse.
I do speak from real life experience. When I was a young soldier an IRA cell (confirmed after the event) planted a bomb in a post box directly in front of me.
I knew who they were (we knew all the 'players'), my weapon was loaded and cocked, safety catch off. The bomber looked me in the eye and he knew, I knew, what he was doing. His driver did the same. It was weird. Very fast but happened incredibly slowly.
I could have shot them both but would have been charged with murder as the rules of engagement stated i "had to know without doubt" they were endangering life.
I got a massive hangover for my decision that day. My Boss got me so drunk by means of a 'well done'.
I've also a friend in the Royal Marines who was thrown out for shooting dead an IRA man who, at the time, had just shot at him and was armed!
Fine lines fella. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 10:30 - Jul 23 with 5416 views | eireblue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 09:47 - Jul 23 by hampstead_blue |
It is more the line of attack that these people are immune from criticism
Your words not mine. Read my posts without prejudice and hopefully you could understand that.
the evidence shows that they shot (with the intention of killing, no other reason)
I could write 1000 words on this.
1) It's impossible to "shoot to injure" in these circumstances. You aim for the main mass and then the head. SImple.
2) They had been told he was a potential suicide bomber -
a) that person would detonate if given a verbal warning
b) you must kill outright. If you injure they can still detonate
I'll stop there to save your embarrassment of insulting the police officers and their dedication to their role.
c) getting a job in the army isn't exactly difficult.
Jog on pussy. Let me take you to my old unit in Colchester. One of my junior soldiers is a senior Officer there, he'll arrange a day there for you. You share that with some young soldiers. They will take you through their training and the way they work. You can probably join in.
There is a 30m range and they can also let you have a few rounds with a weapon.
All very polite.
After supper you can visit 2 Para and they will tell you about targeting and tracking down suspects in a civilian environment (town/city). Also the rules of engagement and just how hard it is to be at the point of the spear.
Then you can swing by the Intelligence Corps team who will give you an idea of humint.
Stop insulting highly trained professionals, listen to those who actually KNOW and have done the job, and retreat back into something in which you have both experience and/or deep knowledge.
This thread should be about potential corruption and how to support the Police in doing their job better.
Murder? You've started at the lowest point of credibility and intellect.
Sorry to be harsh but I would agree that transparency is critical (to where it does not affect operational secrecy). Also armed officers need to be confident that if they open fire they have backing.
Mistakes happen in every job. Some jobs the outcome is the worse.
I do speak from real life experience. When I was a young soldier an IRA cell (confirmed after the event) planted a bomb in a post box directly in front of me.
I knew who they were (we knew all the 'players'), my weapon was loaded and cocked, safety catch off. The bomber looked me in the eye and he knew, I knew, what he was doing. His driver did the same. It was weird. Very fast but happened incredibly slowly.
I could have shot them both but would have been charged with murder as the rules of engagement stated i "had to know without doubt" they were endangering life.
I got a massive hangover for my decision that day. My Boss got me so drunk by means of a 'well done'.
I've also a friend in the Royal Marines who was thrown out for shooting dead an IRA man who, at the time, had just shot at him and was armed!
Fine lines fella. |
What you don’t seem to grasp, is that people understand all that.
However, as soon as people in authority lie, then it is perfectly reasonably to ask why.
To not do so, is to simply bow to authority.
If authorities lie, then it is perfectly reasonable to question the motivation behind those lies.
Hence you opening post using the phrase “utterly ridiculous allegations”.
That allegation is not as a result of people not understanding the role of the police or even the army.
It is a consequence of the authorities lying.
People also understand that police and soldiers are human and of course have emotional reaction and responses.
You yourself have made it clear that you have had emotional reactions.
The correct target of your posts should not be the people that have doubt about why an innocent person was killed.
It should be the people that tried to hide the circumstances of the death of that innocent person, and so created that doubt.
You should also be questioning, why cover ups have happened a number of times, because that creates even more doubt. |  | | |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 10:36 - Jul 23 with 5398 views | hampstead_blue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 19:10 - Jul 22 by jeera |
I don't, I really don't.
Looking through the events step by step, it was an absolute catalogue of errors.
One after another, totally avoidable. They didn't even follow their own guidelines.
I know the underlying point here is one of intent/or not. For me they were in full hunt mode, as I said, with no evident thought to the consequences. Once he stepped back onto that bus they were going to have him one way or another.
The man they killed was one of those they are paid to protect. I don't know how anyone can live with that and not spend their days trying to make amends, starting with complete and utter honesty. |
For me they were in full hunt mode, as I said, with no evident thought to the consequences.
Not sure I can believe that as being the words of a calm, sane, and rational person.
I can give you evidence the counter your rather odd statement.
If you go through their training manual and the objectives of a Police Officer, there is mounds of evidence which I'm afraid shows your statement to be entirely wrong.
Hunt mode? Oh dear!
You do know we are in the UK right. Not Russia or some other tin pot dictatorship. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 10:42 - Jul 23 with 5385 views | bournemouthblue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 11:30 - Jul 22 by Swansea_Blue |
That was the official Met Police story on the day, but I believe eyewitness accounts later said that he wasn't running from them (other than to catch a train). It wasa complete feck up and heavy handed, botched operation. Murder? Possibly although I don't think we've ever got far enough for that to be tested in a court of law. |
From memory, the person vaulting the gate was actually a policeman?
There's no question they were on high alert at the time because of 7/7 and a failed bombing the day before
He looked vaguely like one of the suspects they were after although the met were accused of altering an image of him to appear more like the suspect in question |  |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 12:29 - Jul 23 with 5333 views | eireblue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 10:36 - Jul 23 by hampstead_blue |
For me they were in full hunt mode, as I said, with no evident thought to the consequences.
Not sure I can believe that as being the words of a calm, sane, and rational person.
I can give you evidence the counter your rather odd statement.
If you go through their training manual and the objectives of a Police Officer, there is mounds of evidence which I'm afraid shows your statement to be entirely wrong.
Hunt mode? Oh dear!
You do know we are in the UK right. Not Russia or some other tin pot dictatorship. |
Hampy, you are really not getting this.
Where in the police or army manual, or in their training, or in their list of objectives, that all these professional police and soldiers adhere to, does it say, lie and cover things up?
Show it to us.
If you can’t, then these professionals that have lied, or been part of a cover up, have behaved un-professionally. They have already stepped outside of the bounds of what is expected from a trained professional.
At that point, it is that action, that is the source of the doubt. | | | |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:24 - Jul 23 with 5305 views | sparks |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 12:29 - Jul 23 by eireblue |
Hampy, you are really not getting this.
Where in the police or army manual, or in their training, or in their list of objectives, that all these professional police and soldiers adhere to, does it say, lie and cover things up?
Show it to us.
If you can’t, then these professionals that have lied, or been part of a cover up, have behaved un-professionally. They have already stepped outside of the bounds of what is expected from a trained professional.
At that point, it is that action, that is the source of the doubt. |
You cannot logically imbue the original incident, with the character of what happened afterwards.
I have not seen Hampstead defending any misconduct in terms of the enquiries afterwards. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:30 - Jul 23 with 5299 views | SpruceMoose |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:24 - Jul 23 by sparks |
You cannot logically imbue the original incident, with the character of what happened afterwards.
I have not seen Hampstead defending any misconduct in terms of the enquiries afterwards. |
I think what's grinding the gears of many is not what he's saying now, but the fact that he spectacularly fails to employ the same level of thoughtfulness (for want of a better word) and compassion to others on nearly every other non action man related subject. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:44 - Jul 23 with 5287 views | sparks |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:30 - Jul 23 by SpruceMoose |
I think what's grinding the gears of many is not what he's saying now, but the fact that he spectacularly fails to employ the same level of thoughtfulness (for want of a better word) and compassion to others on nearly every other non action man related subject. |
Then the problem lies with those attacking this particular set of posts. Its basically ad hominem isnt it? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:46 - Jul 23 with 5279 views | SpruceMoose |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:44 - Jul 23 by sparks |
Then the problem lies with those attacking this particular set of posts. Its basically ad hominem isnt it? |
You would say questioning hypocrisy is invalid? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:55 - Jul 23 with 5263 views | hampstead_blue |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 12:29 - Jul 23 by eireblue |
Hampy, you are really not getting this.
Where in the police or army manual, or in their training, or in their list of objectives, that all these professional police and soldiers adhere to, does it say, lie and cover things up?
Show it to us.
If you can’t, then these professionals that have lied, or been part of a cover up, have behaved un-professionally. They have already stepped outside of the bounds of what is expected from a trained professional.
At that point, it is that action, that is the source of the doubt. |
I'm talking about the shooting. That's all.
Calling it 'murder', 'hunt mode' are insults to professionals who, I might remind you, put their lived on the line to protect the many.
If the OP and others genuinely believe their words then shame on you.
I genuinely don't know the details of what happened afterwards.
My focus is protecting the reputation of the blokes/women on the ground. At the pointy end. In the maelstrom of confusion. I'm standing by them because it's what I know and can do so with authority.
You can call me whatever you like, it's not me you are insulting. You are simply putting yourself in a very poor light indeed. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:57 - Jul 23 with 5257 views | JakeITFC |
| 15 years ago today the Met Police murdered on 13:55 - Jul 23 by hampstead_blue |
I'm talking about the shooting. That's all.
Calling it 'murder', 'hunt mode' are insults to professionals who, I might remind you, put their lived on the line to protect the many.
If the OP and others genuinely believe their words then shame on you.
I genuinely don't know the details of what happened afterwards.
My focus is protecting the reputation of the blokes/women on the ground. At the pointy end. In the maelstrom of confusion. I'm standing by them because it's what I know and can do so with authority.
You can call me whatever you like, it's not me you are insulting. You are simply putting yourself in a very poor light indeed. |
But this is the problem - you are automatically defensive of their actions due to your experience, despite evidence to the contrary. | | | |
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