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The week in Tory on 12:28 - Sep 29 by Swansea_Blue
Playing the long game then? As I think you're talking about needing a fundamental shift in values that have been embedded over several decades. Potentially high reward, but very, very difficult to achieve.
True but better than trying the same thing again and expecting a different result. The Torres have owned the agenda since Thatcher. Now when the neoliberal approach has shown more than just cracks but how it singularly creates even more inequality rather than levelling up, the prevailing narrative can be attacked and we can point to most of the rest of Europe who haven’t made the same mistakes (or at least not as much and not as long).
The problem with going against the system and talking about more than just tweaks is that there’s no place in that system for you if you fail. And that’s a distinct problem for many of the careerists who joined in the wake of Blair.
But opposition on their safe terms is meaningless given it’s no alternative and it pushes a narrative that things aren’t so bad. But that’s patently untrue for the environment, many minorities and regions and for the nth time the soon to be 5 million children living in poverty.
People know all that and can see it so Labour engaging in the performative stuff seems to be more a performance for themselves and they’ll keep seeing themselves outflanked by people and movements on the ground who have had enough. Even the Brexiteer, angry white men whose disillusionment and disenfranchisement is entirely the same at root - it’s just been co-opted by right-wing populism.
They need to get a grip and wake up to how politics works not talk about the pragmatism that essentially serves their own personal interests.
[Post edited 29 Sep 2020 12:45]
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The week in Tory on 12:55 - Sep 29 with 2688 views
Although it’s an outflanking pattern that has become even more established since. And one Cummings et al know how to co-opt as they did with Leave and then the Brexit Party. They won’t hesitate to do the same with the post-Brexit culture war stuff either - and they’ll be far better at it because they mostly believe in it.
If Labour is going to get back its traditional support levels and especially make any dent in Scotland (or have any hope of getting SNP support in a minority government) they need to be absolutely hammering the government on their record. At the same time as they present an attractive and more hopeful alternative. In doing so, they can co-opt the many progressive voices and movements in the UK from the trade unionists and those who Corbyn brought into Labour and politics to the young, BLM, XR and even Remainers who can be persuaded that centrism holds little to no solutions.
You’ll disagree with me on why they won’t do that. But I think it’s about aligning the party to what best serves them as individuals. Cosying up to the establishment and soft power seems to be a primary objective of too many of the Labour right as we’ve seen only too well with where Corbyn’s primary adversaries have ended up when their bids to oust him failed. But any analysis of the Tory opposition over the past few decades from Blair and Clegg to Umunna and Watson etc. shows the same pattern. Among the supposedly professional and grown-up politicians this is ultimately about non-opposition and non-change. And repeatedly left wondering why the country is shifting right and people still vote Tory by their millions.
The outflanking thing isn't as simple as that though. Polling suggests that Labour support has actually grown under Starmer's leadership among all age groups - number of left wing policies and youth support aren't a direct correlation. And groups like XR should be a no-go for any mainstream politicians. Whilst their aims are sound, their methods are extreme and the average man in the street who doesn't have strong views on the environment will likely be put off the cause when he sees XR glueing themselves to trains and blocking ambulances. The point of politics is to bring people over to your cause, and groups like that will only alienate people further.
If Starmer maintains a clear position on anti-austerity and pro-environmentalism as well as attacking Tory incompetence and distancing himself from the types of people JC hung around with before and during his leadership, then I think he should be okay. The problem with Miliband was partly superficial due to his appearance, but more importantly that nobody was quite sure where he stood on austerity, other than being anti-Tory.
The Scotland situation is one that doesn't have any easy answers. Despite the SNP's record in government not being fantastic, Sturgeon comes across as a stateswoman-like figure. The 2015 wave was largely due to support for independence being drummed up the year before, and Miliband's lack of a coherent message on austerity, which allowed the SNP to fill the void.. However, in both elections under Corbyn with a clearly left-wing manifesto, more people in Scotland voted Tory than Labour, so neither side is blameless. Starmer will have his work cut out there for sure - if Sturgeon steps down before 2024 it may be a bit easier, but it is hard to envisage a way back, unless the other parties can convey a message of the nationalists seemingly being more interested in independence than they are in bread and butter issues.
As for the Corbyn adversaries, I agree with some of what you say. The Corbyn-Watson axis broke down within months and was never likely to work. I'd like to see leadership elections conducted on a joint ticket in the future. Likewise, those MPs who went on to support the Tories didn't cover themselves in glory either. Whilst it was sad to see Ian Austin refuse to vote Labour because of racists within the party, I could understand his view. But I lost respect for him when he then endorsed Johnson, as they were (and still are) embroiled in a racism scandal of their own.
Your second paragraph is spot on. The failure to fight back against the 'Labour ruined the economy' myth was incredibly frustrating and had me yelling at the TV on a regular basis during the campaign.
Ditto.
I suppose the problem by then was that in essence the party was proposing very much the same economic policies as the Tories. And had wasted its 13 year opportunity to show what more balanced social democratic economic policies could achieve.
I think that left them with no room to push their own narrative that was the only other way to avoid getting bogged down in the Tories’ inevitable attack line.
Now Starmer has 10 years of austerity, the throwing of business under the Brexit bus, the effect of Covid and a looming climate catastrophe to propose an alternative and a new narrative. Better, more competent management of the same system looks a very weak and uninspiring alternative that won’t satisfactorily answer any voter issues let alone the objective challenges.
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The week in Tory on 13:01 - Sep 29 with 2678 views
Your second paragraph is spot on. The failure to fight back against the 'Labour ruined the economy' myth was incredibly frustrating and had me yelling at the TV on a regular basis during the campaign.
Alan Johnson actually did it quite well in his response to Osborne's budget statement in 2010. But Balls didn't do it enough once he'd replaced him.
The outflanking thing isn't as simple as that though. Polling suggests that Labour support has actually grown under Starmer's leadership among all age groups - number of left wing policies and youth support aren't a direct correlation. And groups like XR should be a no-go for any mainstream politicians. Whilst their aims are sound, their methods are extreme and the average man in the street who doesn't have strong views on the environment will likely be put off the cause when he sees XR glueing themselves to trains and blocking ambulances. The point of politics is to bring people over to your cause, and groups like that will only alienate people further.
If Starmer maintains a clear position on anti-austerity and pro-environmentalism as well as attacking Tory incompetence and distancing himself from the types of people JC hung around with before and during his leadership, then I think he should be okay. The problem with Miliband was partly superficial due to his appearance, but more importantly that nobody was quite sure where he stood on austerity, other than being anti-Tory.
The Scotland situation is one that doesn't have any easy answers. Despite the SNP's record in government not being fantastic, Sturgeon comes across as a stateswoman-like figure. The 2015 wave was largely due to support for independence being drummed up the year before, and Miliband's lack of a coherent message on austerity, which allowed the SNP to fill the void.. However, in both elections under Corbyn with a clearly left-wing manifesto, more people in Scotland voted Tory than Labour, so neither side is blameless. Starmer will have his work cut out there for sure - if Sturgeon steps down before 2024 it may be a bit easier, but it is hard to envisage a way back, unless the other parties can convey a message of the nationalists seemingly being more interested in independence than they are in bread and butter issues.
As for the Corbyn adversaries, I agree with some of what you say. The Corbyn-Watson axis broke down within months and was never likely to work. I'd like to see leadership elections conducted on a joint ticket in the future. Likewise, those MPs who went on to support the Tories didn't cover themselves in glory either. Whilst it was sad to see Ian Austin refuse to vote Labour because of racists within the party, I could understand his view. But I lost respect for him when he then endorsed Johnson, as they were (and still are) embroiled in a racism scandal of their own.
Fair points although I still read them differently in many cases.
Got to shoot out so I’ll need to address the overall points later. But one thing that jumped out is the idea that XR or BLM are no-go areas. Like it or not, these organisations are at the vanguard of the Green and equality/social justice movements. They’re not going anywhere and their proposals need to be considered because system change is an objective solution in itself. By going against them and arguing that it’s about tweaks, Labour not only has no authority on the subject but also a weaker narrative of themselves as a credible alternative.
Playing it safe and supposedly smart in the middle will see them outflanked on these issues. And brutally, if they actively alienate people on the left then they’re screwed. Labour needs to be bringing this stuff onboard like the Tories did with Leave. But this time as a force for good because XR and BLM are more right than they are wrong, even with their take on the system and the need for it to change.
4 years out from an election they need to be promoting a direction and a vision (and tempering the extremes of the groups that they broadly support and need) rather than trying and failing to keep everyone happy except themselves and the bubble of support who thinks that party politics itself is still the answer and a driver in real debates.
[Post edited 29 Sep 2020 13:29]
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The week in Tory on 13:39 - Sep 29 with 2637 views
Taking Back Control - remember that, it was a Brexit mantra. Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the former lord chief justice of England and Wales has called for greater parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s emergency coronavirus legislation because vital freedoms are being “curtailed”. Lady Hale, the last president of the supreme court, has said that parliament “surrendered” control of its constitutional role. So that "Control" we took back was just for Johnson, Gove and Cummins and no-one else.
Don't believe a word I say. I'm only kidding. Or am I?
Number 5 is incorrect. They didn't exempt it; it's naturally exempt as it's a Royal Palace. They're also exempt from the smoking ban for the same reason.
I thought I saw on the BBC they were now closing those bars at 10 as well anyway (probably as a PR stunt, but let's be accurate. There's plenty else in his list without making stuff up).
Number 5 is incorrect. They didn't exempt it; it's naturally exempt as it's a Royal Palace. They're also exempt from the smoking ban for the same reason.
I thought I saw on the BBC they were now closing those bars at 10 as well anyway (probably as a PR stunt, but let's be accurate. There's plenty else in his list without making stuff up).
Would be more impressive if they knew how many metres in a kilometre too
Taking Back Control - remember that, it was a Brexit mantra. Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the former lord chief justice of England and Wales has called for greater parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s emergency coronavirus legislation because vital freedoms are being “curtailed”. Lady Hale, the last president of the supreme court, has said that parliament “surrendered” control of its constitutional role. So that "Control" we took back was just for Johnson, Gove and Cummins and no-one else.
Yep, take back control and give it to us and our backers. It's all in plain site too, not as if it's hidden. And people are happy to go along with it. People who've circulated meaningless slogans about democracy on social media are quite literally supporting an attack by the executive on our democratic institutions (parliament, the judiciary).
I struggle to understand the (what's the word - cognitive dissonance maybe?) that you need to have to hold those two positions simultaneously. Too both bleat on about democracy and freedom and yet support what this government is doing. It makes no sense. I don't know how to rationalise it or counter it.
The week in Tory on 16:00 - Sep 29 by Swansea_Blue
Yep, take back control and give it to us and our backers. It's all in plain site too, not as if it's hidden. And people are happy to go along with it. People who've circulated meaningless slogans about democracy on social media are quite literally supporting an attack by the executive on our democratic institutions (parliament, the judiciary).
I struggle to understand the (what's the word - cognitive dissonance maybe?) that you need to have to hold those two positions simultaneously. Too both bleat on about democracy and freedom and yet support what this government is doing. It makes no sense. I don't know how to rationalise it or counter it.
It’s almost like those terms have been rendered meaningless in the UK.
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The week in Tory on 06:18 - Sep 30 with 2467 views
The week in Tory on 16:00 - Sep 29 by Swansea_Blue
Yep, take back control and give it to us and our backers. It's all in plain site too, not as if it's hidden. And people are happy to go along with it. People who've circulated meaningless slogans about democracy on social media are quite literally supporting an attack by the executive on our democratic institutions (parliament, the judiciary).
I struggle to understand the (what's the word - cognitive dissonance maybe?) that you need to have to hold those two positions simultaneously. Too both bleat on about democracy and freedom and yet support what this government is doing. It makes no sense. I don't know how to rationalise it or counter it.
It’s a cult, there’s no other word for it.
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The week in Tory on 07:16 - Sep 30 with 2460 views
I’m astonished that you get away with starting a thread telling 13 million people to f@ck off and don’t get in trouble. Another poster on here was (rightly) castigated yesterday for generalising about a religious group. You’ve just done a very similar thing about another group of people and your fanboys on here applaud you. Truly baffling.
The Paz Man
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The week in Tory on 07:18 - Sep 30 with 2447 views
I’m astonished that you get away with starting a thread telling 13 million people to f@ck off and don’t get in trouble. Another poster on here was (rightly) castigated yesterday for generalising about a religious group. You’ve just done a very similar thing about another group of people and your fanboys on here applaud you. Truly baffling.
Come on Paz, having a pop at someone for how they voted is not the same as having a pop at someone for the colour of their skin or their religion.
You know this.
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The week in Tory on 07:25 - Sep 30 with 2441 views
Come on Paz, having a pop at someone for how they voted is not the same as having a pop at someone for the colour of their skin or their religion.
You know this.
Obviously, that’s not what I was trying to say. He’s made a massive generalising that he hates all 13 million people who voted Tory and told them to f@ck off. That’s still an absurd generalisation.
The Paz Man
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The week in Tory on 07:26 - Sep 30 with 2439 views
I’m astonished that you get away with starting a thread telling 13 million people to f@ck off and don’t get in trouble. Another poster on here was (rightly) castigated yesterday for generalising about a religious group. You’ve just done a very similar thing about another group of people and your fanboys on here applaud you. Truly baffling.
Yeah but they are a right bunch of w@nkers though Paz!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Obviously, that’s not what I was trying to say. He’s made a massive generalising that he hates all 13 million people who voted Tory and told them to f@ck off. That’s still an absurd generalisation.
Your comparison doesn't really work.. He's not generalising - he's criticising all tory voters because they all voted tory and by doing so, contributed to this shambles.
Edit: I haven't explained well: it's a specific criticism which happens to be aimed at 13m people in the same boat. If he called them all thick, that would be generalising.
[Post edited 30 Sep 2020 8:18]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Yeah but they are a right bunch of w@nkers though Paz!
Those in the cabinet are certainly acting like it at the moment! What I’m saying is it’s a bit much to lump all 13 million who voted for them in the same boat and give them a massive f- you! Would you do that to everyone who voted for Tony Blair following the Iraq war for example? If you’re going to tell everyone to F off who has at some point voted for a government that has done things you don’t agree with you are not going to have many friends ...
The Paz Man
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The week in Tory on 08:24 - Sep 30 with 2394 views
Those in the cabinet are certainly acting like it at the moment! What I’m saying is it’s a bit much to lump all 13 million who voted for them in the same boat and give them a massive f- you! Would you do that to everyone who voted for Tony Blair following the Iraq war for example? If you’re going to tell everyone to F off who has at some point voted for a government that has done things you don’t agree with you are not going to have many friends ...
imo, your Tony Blair one doesn;t work either - Labour did lots of good competent things while in govenment other than the Iraq war, plus the tories fullly supported that war at the time. Whereas this govt has done nothing well and everything badly. Literally. We also knew it would be like that because we had a chance to see them in action and what they stoud for before voting. no excuse.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
imo, your Tony Blair one doesn;t work either - Labour did lots of good competent things while in govenment other than the Iraq war, plus the tories fullly supported that war at the time. Whereas this govt has done nothing well and everything badly. Literally. We also knew it would be like that because we had a chance to see them in action and what they stoud for before voting. no excuse.
Ok mate, just go around telling everyone you disagree with politically to F off ... you’ll go far
The Paz Man
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The week in Tory on 08:52 - Sep 30 with 2367 views
Ok mate, just go around telling everyone you disagree with politically to F off ... you’ll go far
Excuse me, but I'm not Herbivore, but I do understand his anger. This has been a disaster of a government - don't try to run from your responsibility, however small, in enabling it.
[Post edited 30 Sep 2020 8:52]
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Obviously, that’s not what I was trying to say. He’s made a massive generalising that he hates all 13 million people who voted Tory and told them to f@ck off. That’s still an absurd generalisation.
Perhaps so, but you were drawing a direct comparison with someone being ‘castigated’ for racism yesterday (I didn’t see the thread so don’t know the rights or wrongs).
I’m just saying it’s not the same thing at all.
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The week in Tory (n/t) on 09:08 - Sep 30 with 2355 views
I’m astonished that you get away with starting a thread telling 13 million people to f@ck off and don’t get in trouble. Another poster on here was (rightly) castigated yesterday for generalising about a religious group. You’ve just done a very similar thing about another group of people and your fanboys on here applaud you. Truly baffling.
imo, your Tony Blair one doesn;t work either - Labour did lots of good competent things while in govenment other than the Iraq war, plus the tories fullly supported that war at the time. Whereas this govt has done nothing well and everything badly. Literally. We also knew it would be like that because we had a chance to see them in action and what they stoud for before voting. no excuse.
Not everything badly. They're lining the pockets of their donors quite well!
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