| I know this has been done to death 20:51 - Dec 10 with 10454 views | Coastalblue |
But can anybody give good reasons why we're still leaving the EU?* It's so depressing and probably worse than I actually imagined it was going to end up now all the chickens are beginning to come home to roost.
The easy answer is thick little Englanders, and that's probably true in some places but I can't believe that's true of all of those wanting to leave. There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)
I struggle to see a single positive to come out of it, let alone enough to make it all worthwhile, what am I missing.
I'm hoping to avoid the name calling etc that normally comes with the subject matter, and that I guess might put off anybody who thinks there are reasons from answering but a reasoned response from a Brexit believer would be gratefully appreciated.
*Aside from the fact I realise we've burnt our bridges now probably. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:21 - Dec 10 with 1865 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:12 - Dec 10 by J2BLUE |
It was a collective tantrum lashing out at the wrong target. By the time many of us realised that and wanted to change our minds it was too late. The loudest voices drowned out all the counter arguments and all the polls showing a majority were now actually against it.
It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman. Once we sobered up there was no chance to correct the mistake.
There should have been a confirmation vote. This is the deal, do you still want it? With that said, ultimate responsibility lies with those of us who voted for it and we must accept that. |
Yeah, I've still not forgiven you. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:22 - Dec 10 with 1866 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:12 - Dec 10 by thegloryyears |
a quick copy and paste.
One, the EU is a fundamentally protectionist trading bloc
Two, the EU seriously misallocates resources
Three, the EU is a political project that is fundamentally anti-democratic,
Four, is the ‘purposive’ nature of EU law
Five, is the folly of introducing the euro
Six, is the demographic ageing of the EU’s population,
Seven, the EU has inadvertently encouraged regional separatist movements to develop in a number of member states
Eight, is increasing Euroscepticism in the EU
Nine, the EU has been blamed for the tension between Russia and the Ukraine
Finally, there is massive corruption in the EU,
+ we get our fish back. |
8. LOLwut?
9. Mostly by the Russians.
10. How many billions in contracts to friends of government ministers is it now? |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:22 - Dec 10 with 1862 views | J2BLUE |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:21 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
Yeah, I've still not forgiven you. |
You have no reason to. Being sorry now isn't going to change anything for you. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:23 - Dec 10 with 1863 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:20 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Oh come on now the vast majority of ministers are elected MPs, and even if they aren't they are still applying a policy manifesto that was voted on by the electorate.
You can make the argument that even though law-makers are appointed and not elected, it is more democratic for other reasons and that's fine, but that bottom line is not how leave voters would see it. |
The problem with "how leave voters would see it" is that they would tend to see it through a lens of prejudice rather than being well informed. It seems you aren't that clued up on the democratic credentials of the EU versus our own either, but you're doubling down rather than acknowledging that perhaps the issue here is one of (mis)perception rather than it being a legitimate complaint. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:24 - Dec 10 with 1847 views | Bluefish |
Oooh I know this one!!
It is
Hands face space
No it is
Protect the NHS
No it is
Stay alert save lives
No it is
Squeeze the disease
No it is
Take back control
Yes that was it
It doesn't mean anything of course so it is something about foreigners |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:28 - Dec 10 with 1846 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:22 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
8. LOLwut?
9. Mostly by the Russians.
10. How many billions in contracts to friends of government ministers is it now? |
11. LOL | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:29 - Dec 10 with 1836 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:19 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
The Tories have two unelected ministers in their cabinet currently. They were appointed by Boris Johnson. The whole undemocratic argument against the EU really doesn't stack up. It's no less democratic than most national governments, including our own. We have an entire unelected second chamber with more members than the Commons, ffs. |
The first part i think i answered below, as far as the Lords is concerned they only apply brakes, they would be reformed if they tried to block crucial legislation.
I don't think the argument for leave voters, and for myself when i balanced the various factors, was a judgment on which parliament was more democratic, it was whether the EU parliament, elected or not, was gaining more sovereignty and thus creating a United States of Europe. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:33 - Dec 10 with 1814 views | Bluefish |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:12 - Dec 10 by J2BLUE |
It was a collective tantrum lashing out at the wrong target. By the time many of us realised that and wanted to change our minds it was too late. The loudest voices drowned out all the counter arguments and all the polls showing a majority were now actually against it.
It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman. Once we sobered up there was no chance to correct the mistake.
There should have been a confirmation vote. This is the deal, do you still want it? With that said, ultimate responsibility lies with those of us who voted for it and we must accept that. |
Personally I think all leave voters should be forced to do community service until we have recover from the damage caused
They should be volunteering really if they had any shame | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:38 - Dec 10 with 1821 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:29 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
The first part i think i answered below, as far as the Lords is concerned they only apply brakes, they would be reformed if they tried to block crucial legislation.
I don't think the argument for leave voters, and for myself when i balanced the various factors, was a judgment on which parliament was more democratic, it was whether the EU parliament, elected or not, was gaining more sovereignty and thus creating a United States of Europe. |
You do know we had a veto and were able to opt out of things like the Euro and Schengen, right? It's not like we were victims of a power grab. We were full members and had certain privileges because the EU has always been happy, to an extent, to pander to our parochial exceptionalism. Quite frankly we deserve to be told to feck off at this point with such bullsh!t arguments still being trotted out. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 22:39]
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:41 - Dec 10 with 1805 views | jeera |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:12 - Dec 10 by J2BLUE |
It was a collective tantrum lashing out at the wrong target. By the time many of us realised that and wanted to change our minds it was too late. The loudest voices drowned out all the counter arguments and all the polls showing a majority were now actually against it.
It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman. Once we sobered up there was no chance to correct the mistake.
There should have been a confirmation vote. This is the deal, do you still want it? With that said, ultimate responsibility lies with those of us who voted for it and we must accept that. |
"It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman."
Don't you just hate it when that happens? |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:41 - Dec 10 with 1807 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:23 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
The problem with "how leave voters would see it" is that they would tend to see it through a lens of prejudice rather than being well informed. It seems you aren't that clued up on the democratic credentials of the EU versus our own either, but you're doubling down rather than acknowledging that perhaps the issue here is one of (mis)perception rather than it being a legitimate complaint. |
I don't think i've said anything false about the EU parliament so therefore saying i'm not clued up on it is just a smear, and labelling leave voters as prejudiced is really not helpful and just increases the divisions in the country. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:42 - Dec 10 with 1805 views | MedwayTractor |
You say "There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)."
I leave it to others to decide if I fall in the category of people with intelligence, but here's my side of the story:
ONE: I voted yes in the 1970s referendum, on the understanding that we would be joining a trading bloc. The reality is different, the underlying purpose is, and always has been, to create a United States of Europe. If I had been told that 50 years ago, I would have voted No. I suspect that a large number would have done the same, but not only did the Six never admit this underlying purpose, but our politicians knew the truth and concealed it from the electorate.
TWO: The countries which signed the Treaty of Rome, ie France, Germany, Italy and Benelux, are continentally inclined, not particularly maritime and certainly not global in outlook. They had no well organised agriculture (except The Netherlands) and did not have such an extensive maritime sector, if at all. These two sectors of our economy have been (1) transformed to a command economy type of structure and (2) destroyed. In my view, the Treaty of Rome should have been torn up in 1973 and re-written to take into account the different economic landscape of the Nine. That this did not happen seems to me in a large part aimed at protecting the interests of France & Germany.
THREE: About 40 years ago, my job involved a task which monitored the performance of a privately owned portfolio of commercial property investments. In addition this included, unusually, let agricultural estates, comprising large swathes of Grade I and II arable land, with numerous farms and, in some cases, whole villages. The owners of this portfolio obtained funds from Brussels to pay for improvement works, including drainage schemes, new buildings, etc. This meant that they could increase the rents, thus increasing the value of the estates and, thereby, creating profit. The works did not necessarily result in increased productivity and were most likely, therefore, to result in higher food prices. The Brussels money was not, as you might hope and would expect, by way of loans, it was as grants. In other words, taxpayers money which we sent to Brussels was being handed out to a private company with no obligation whatsoever to pay it back. I can probably date my Euroscepticism to this time.
FOUR: My objection to the Common Market (sorry, I can't help still calling it that) goes far deeper than concerns about funding, employment, immigration, etc. It concerns the fundamental difference between the structure of our country and most of continental Europe. Do you know the difference between Anglo-Saxon law and Roman law? We live under the principles of Anglo-Saxon law, by which we can do what we want, unless the law says we can't. In Roman law, it is exactly the opposite, the people can do only what is permitted by the law. (This is behind rules like no washing on the line on Sundays). The unelected politicians driving the principal purpose of the EC (see point ONE above) would insist that all member states have the same structure and I couldn't see the outcome of this as anything else but the imposition of Roman Law on the UK, not necessarily all at once, but so gradually that we wouldn't notice what has happened.
FIVE: Following on from FOUR, another fundamental difference. Our criminal justice system is based on trial by jury, the assumption of innocence and the separation of powers. (This last one means that the parts of the system responsible for investigating a crime, prosecuting the accused and sitting in judgement are independent from each other). Some countries in Europe do not have this separation and do not, as far as I am aware, have trial by jury for all. The French, for example, have investigating magistrates, therefore responsible for both investigating and trying a case. Could you envisage the French giving up their system in favour of ours?
I voted Leave to stop other countries from destroying our way of life and imposing theirs on us. I can't imagine for a second that the French would consent to any demand from us for them to do things our way. The last (nearly) 50 years have shown me that we are the ones who always get the raw deal.
In the long term, the economy, employment etc are likely to be subject to the usual fluctuations as time goes by. [As you might have guessed, my career was in property and I've seen at least four major property market crashes, but eventually the line on the graph goes up again]. My points FOUR and FIVE concern things that, once gone, will be gone forever. Voting for Brexit gave me the opportunity to do my bit to ensure that we don't lose these things from our lives.
If you've got this far, dear reader, I hope you have been able to follow my reasoning and are able to understand my position, although I don't necessarily expect you to agree with me. I don't necessarily disagree with European co-operation, or even integration, but I believe most strongly that the European Community as it exists today is flawed beyond redemption and, therefore, is not fit for purpose. As far as I am concerned, thank God (if you believe in gods) we're out. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:49 - Dec 10 with 1785 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:38 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
You do know we had a veto and were able to opt out of things like the Euro and Schengen, right? It's not like we were victims of a power grab. We were full members and had certain privileges because the EU has always been happy, to an extent, to pander to our parochial exceptionalism. Quite frankly we deserve to be told to feck off at this point with such bullsh!t arguments still being trotted out. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 22:39]
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If you think we should be in the Euro or Schengen, and dream of a United States of Europe, you are perfectly entitled to dream that, but this is not a nation that wants any part of it. A lot of the mainland countries feel differently, i'm trying to word this in a non-pejorative manner, but wouldn't you feel happier living in Germany or Belgium where the feeling is more aligned? | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:50 - Dec 10 with 1778 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:41 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
I don't think i've said anything false about the EU parliament so therefore saying i'm not clued up on it is just a smear, and labelling leave voters as prejudiced is really not helpful and just increases the divisions in the country. |
I don't really care, mate. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:53 - Dec 10 with 1771 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:28 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
11. LOL |
Blue passport fish. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:53 - Dec 10 with 1772 views | Coastalblue |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:42 - Dec 10 by MedwayTractor |
You say "There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)."
I leave it to others to decide if I fall in the category of people with intelligence, but here's my side of the story:
ONE: I voted yes in the 1970s referendum, on the understanding that we would be joining a trading bloc. The reality is different, the underlying purpose is, and always has been, to create a United States of Europe. If I had been told that 50 years ago, I would have voted No. I suspect that a large number would have done the same, but not only did the Six never admit this underlying purpose, but our politicians knew the truth and concealed it from the electorate.
TWO: The countries which signed the Treaty of Rome, ie France, Germany, Italy and Benelux, are continentally inclined, not particularly maritime and certainly not global in outlook. They had no well organised agriculture (except The Netherlands) and did not have such an extensive maritime sector, if at all. These two sectors of our economy have been (1) transformed to a command economy type of structure and (2) destroyed. In my view, the Treaty of Rome should have been torn up in 1973 and re-written to take into account the different economic landscape of the Nine. That this did not happen seems to me in a large part aimed at protecting the interests of France & Germany.
THREE: About 40 years ago, my job involved a task which monitored the performance of a privately owned portfolio of commercial property investments. In addition this included, unusually, let agricultural estates, comprising large swathes of Grade I and II arable land, with numerous farms and, in some cases, whole villages. The owners of this portfolio obtained funds from Brussels to pay for improvement works, including drainage schemes, new buildings, etc. This meant that they could increase the rents, thus increasing the value of the estates and, thereby, creating profit. The works did not necessarily result in increased productivity and were most likely, therefore, to result in higher food prices. The Brussels money was not, as you might hope and would expect, by way of loans, it was as grants. In other words, taxpayers money which we sent to Brussels was being handed out to a private company with no obligation whatsoever to pay it back. I can probably date my Euroscepticism to this time.
FOUR: My objection to the Common Market (sorry, I can't help still calling it that) goes far deeper than concerns about funding, employment, immigration, etc. It concerns the fundamental difference between the structure of our country and most of continental Europe. Do you know the difference between Anglo-Saxon law and Roman law? We live under the principles of Anglo-Saxon law, by which we can do what we want, unless the law says we can't. In Roman law, it is exactly the opposite, the people can do only what is permitted by the law. (This is behind rules like no washing on the line on Sundays). The unelected politicians driving the principal purpose of the EC (see point ONE above) would insist that all member states have the same structure and I couldn't see the outcome of this as anything else but the imposition of Roman Law on the UK, not necessarily all at once, but so gradually that we wouldn't notice what has happened.
FIVE: Following on from FOUR, another fundamental difference. Our criminal justice system is based on trial by jury, the assumption of innocence and the separation of powers. (This last one means that the parts of the system responsible for investigating a crime, prosecuting the accused and sitting in judgement are independent from each other). Some countries in Europe do not have this separation and do not, as far as I am aware, have trial by jury for all. The French, for example, have investigating magistrates, therefore responsible for both investigating and trying a case. Could you envisage the French giving up their system in favour of ours?
I voted Leave to stop other countries from destroying our way of life and imposing theirs on us. I can't imagine for a second that the French would consent to any demand from us for them to do things our way. The last (nearly) 50 years have shown me that we are the ones who always get the raw deal.
In the long term, the economy, employment etc are likely to be subject to the usual fluctuations as time goes by. [As you might have guessed, my career was in property and I've seen at least four major property market crashes, but eventually the line on the graph goes up again]. My points FOUR and FIVE concern things that, once gone, will be gone forever. Voting for Brexit gave me the opportunity to do my bit to ensure that we don't lose these things from our lives.
If you've got this far, dear reader, I hope you have been able to follow my reasoning and are able to understand my position, although I don't necessarily expect you to agree with me. I don't necessarily disagree with European co-operation, or even integration, but I believe most strongly that the European Community as it exists today is flawed beyond redemption and, therefore, is not fit for purpose. As far as I am concerned, thank God (if you believe in gods) we're out. |
That's the kind of answer I wanted, and rarely see. You're right, I disagree with some while there are other things where I think maybe we have to compromise for the greater good of all.
You have voted for what you believe are solid reasons though and I can see why you did that.
Thank you, I appreciate the time you took to type that out and respect the decision you came to, even if I believe (just my opinion) it was the wrong one. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:53 - Dec 10 with 1769 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:49 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
If you think we should be in the Euro or Schengen, and dream of a United States of Europe, you are perfectly entitled to dream that, but this is not a nation that wants any part of it. A lot of the mainland countries feel differently, i'm trying to word this in a non-pejorative manner, but wouldn't you feel happier living in Germany or Belgium where the feeling is more aligned? |
Nice straw manning. And frankly that kind of divisive attitude isn't helpful, etc. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:54 - Dec 10 with 1763 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:53 - Dec 10 by Coastalblue |
That's the kind of answer I wanted, and rarely see. You're right, I disagree with some while there are other things where I think maybe we have to compromise for the greater good of all.
You have voted for what you believe are solid reasons though and I can see why you did that.
Thank you, I appreciate the time you took to type that out and respect the decision you came to, even if I believe (just my opinion) it was the wrong one. |
I mean, it's still a load of b0llocks when you start to unpick it though. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:54 - Dec 10 with 1767 views | jeera |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:49 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
If you think we should be in the Euro or Schengen, and dream of a United States of Europe, you are perfectly entitled to dream that, but this is not a nation that wants any part of it. A lot of the mainland countries feel differently, i'm trying to word this in a non-pejorative manner, but wouldn't you feel happier living in Germany or Belgium where the feeling is more aligned? |
Unless I missed a previous part of this conversation - which is entirely possible - he hasn't said he wants us to "be in the Euro or Schengen".
I am pro-EU but would have been more than happy if we had grasped the chance we had to push for some reform.
But to pretend we were in any way being forced to join the Euro or to become part of the Schengen area would not be true to my understanding. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 22:59 - Dec 10 with 1747 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:54 - Dec 10 by jeera |
Unless I missed a previous part of this conversation - which is entirely possible - he hasn't said he wants us to "be in the Euro or Schengen".
I am pro-EU but would have been more than happy if we had grasped the chance we had to push for some reform.
But to pretend we were in any way being forced to join the Euro or to become part of the Schengen area would not be true to my understanding. |
You haven't missed anything, I never said we should join the Euro or Schengen. Trekkie just wants an excuse to suggest I leave the country it seems. Such petty divisiveness from them. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 22:59]
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:03 - Dec 10 with 1737 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:59 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
You haven't missed anything, I never said we should join the Euro or Schengen. Trekkie just wants an excuse to suggest I leave the country it seems. Such petty divisiveness from them. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 22:59]
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All I need to complete my Trekkie bingo card right now is for him to claim he's a lefty/Labour voter. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:11 - Dec 10 with 1720 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:50 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
I don't really care, mate. |
Don't reply then! Goodness me. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:11 - Dec 10 with 1717 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:03 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
All I need to complete my Trekkie bingo card right now is for him to claim he's a lefty/Labour voter. |
Was Tony Benn a lefty? | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:13 - Dec 10 with 1712 views | SpruceMoose |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:11 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Was Tony Benn a lefty? |
Are you comparing yourself to Tony Benn?
Mr. Bean, maybe. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:13 - Dec 10 with 1710 views | eireblue |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:49 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
If you think we should be in the Euro or Schengen, and dream of a United States of Europe, you are perfectly entitled to dream that, but this is not a nation that wants any part of it. A lot of the mainland countries feel differently, i'm trying to word this in a non-pejorative manner, but wouldn't you feel happier living in Germany or Belgium where the feeling is more aligned? |
It is worth trying to understand the EU structure.
The U.K. Government has a mandate, since it is elected.
If you directly elected an EU parliament, there would be a EU parliament with a mandate and sovereignty. That would be a federal EU. It isn’t.
The EU parliament is more akin to an elected House of Lords, and the EU commission is more akin to a civil service department.
It isn’t a un-democratic. It t is a democratic system for sovereign countries to pool sovereignty, in area agreed by the sovereign countries.
Boris has been lying about the EU for most of his career, as have many other people. |  | | |
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