| I know this has been done to death 20:51 - Dec 10 with 10452 views | Coastalblue |
But can anybody give good reasons why we're still leaving the EU?* It's so depressing and probably worse than I actually imagined it was going to end up now all the chickens are beginning to come home to roost.
The easy answer is thick little Englanders, and that's probably true in some places but I can't believe that's true of all of those wanting to leave. There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)
I struggle to see a single positive to come out of it, let alone enough to make it all worthwhile, what am I missing.
I'm hoping to avoid the name calling etc that normally comes with the subject matter, and that I guess might put off anybody who thinks there are reasons from answering but a reasoned response from a Brexit believer would be gratefully appreciated.
*Aside from the fact I realise we've burnt our bridges now probably. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 10:48 - Dec 11 with 1741 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:07 - Dec 11 by gordon |
Having a bit of a principled objection to the EU on various grounds is entirely reasonable, of course there's lots to be critical of.
The problem is that Brexit doesn't make the EU disappear - the EU is likely to now have more influence over our ability to trade, prosper, make rules etc., than it did before, only now they won't be wielding this power to our benefit. |
The first of many bricks now removed...a matter of time till it falls. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 10:50 - Dec 11 with 1739 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:48 - Dec 11 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The first of many bricks now removed...a matter of time till it falls. |
It's really not though. I don't think you're reading the situation well at all. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 11:03 - Dec 11 with 1715 views | itfc_bucks |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:48 - Dec 11 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The first of many bricks now removed...a matter of time till it falls. |
uh...awkward. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:05 - Dec 11 with 1712 views | Darth_Koont |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:50 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
It's really not though. I don't think you're reading the situation well at all. |
Indeed. If you look at the forces around the world and the challenges ahead then you want to be part of a voice that can’t be ignored. Rather than a junior partner that will just have to shut up and make do with what the bigger players decide.
All that’s on top of the EU being an important check and balance on our own disastrous government, politics and indeed democracy. Leaving that shelter means we’ll have to toughen up and grow up, which I have zero faith that we’re mature enough even to accept.
We’re basically like a 15 year old threatening to leave home, so blinded by our own stroppy self-righteousness that we have no idea what that means and what we’d be giving up. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 11:05 - Dec 11 with 1710 views | Half_Idiot |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:48 - Dec 11 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The first of many bricks now removed...a matter of time till it falls. |
Do you really believe that the UK leaving the EU is the being of the end of the EU? |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:07 - Dec 11 with 1705 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:45 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
The issue I have with the sovereignty argument is that generally those that peddle it aren't able to name anyhring that we can't currently do as EU members that they'd like us to do outside the EU, or name any particular EU rules they don't want us to have to follow (that's before getting into the fact that these are rules we signed up to as a sovereign nation). I don't know, maybe it's just an island mentality of wanting to feel like we're entirely our own boss, but whatever it is it's completely stupid. |
Allied to the fact that full sovereignty would mean that no trade deals would be possible since compromise is required by both sides. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:07 - Dec 11 with 1694 views | footers |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:05 - Dec 11 by Half_Idiot |
Do you really believe that the UK leaving the EU is the being of the end of the EU? |
Just in the same way it was when Spain, Italy, Ireland and Greece were going to leave. It was all going to cave in.
Only they didn't leave and the EU still remains. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 11:09 - Dec 11 with 1690 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:07 - Dec 11 by Eireannach_gorm |
Allied to the fact that full sovereignty would mean that no trade deals would be possible since compromise is required by both sides. |
Precisely. Any trade deal involves compromise. The much vaunted WTO that the hard Brexiteers seem to love is a supranational organisation that we will be ceding power to. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 11:26 - Dec 11 with 1654 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:05 - Dec 11 by Half_Idiot |
Do you really believe that the UK leaving the EU is the being of the end of the EU? |
Yup and hopefully the start of a reset from the current model of globalism.
Interesting that my throw away one liners garner a response while more substantive links are ignored. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 11:28 - Dec 11 with 1646 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:26 - Dec 11 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Yup and hopefully the start of a reset from the current model of globalism.
Interesting that my throw away one liners garner a response while more substantive links are ignored. |
You're really not reading the situation well at all. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 11:55 - Dec 11 with 1622 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:26 - Dec 11 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Yup and hopefully the start of a reset from the current model of globalism.
Interesting that my throw away one liners garner a response while more substantive links are ignored. |
Could you expand on how Brexit will change the current model of globalism? Should the likes of Facebook, Google, MacDonalds etc be very afraid ( you could include the likes of Dyson in that also )? | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:56 - Dec 11 with 1620 views | Half_Idiot |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:26 - Dec 11 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Yup and hopefully the start of a reset from the current model of globalism.
Interesting that my throw away one liners garner a response while more substantive links are ignored. |
Any reason the left might have for wanting to leave the EU is irrelevant as we have right wing government in control. | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 12:01 - Dec 11 with 1612 views | eireblue |
| I know this has been done to death on 01:05 - Dec 11 by IPS_wich |
I'm still tempted to up vote Medway's response though - because whilst I disagree with all five of his points, at least they are well reasoned - with the exception of #5 which is scaremongering because I've not seen anything to seriously suggest that staying in the EU would threaten trial by jury.
As for #3 - we are (as is Europe) a capitalist society. So what if the EU gave a grant to improve the value and therefore rental returns on arable land - that's precisely what economic stimulus is - and post-COVID we will see many examples from the UK government - and that's a good thing just as long as those grants are tendered and awarded fairly. I'm sure we can all agree that the current government are beyond approach with regards to that!! |
The main issue with Medway’s post is that it is a list of things to dislike about the EU.
I still have yet to see a list of concrete beneficial outcomes that result in the U.K. leaving the EU. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 12:02 - Dec 11 with 1608 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 12:01 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
The main issue with Medway’s post is that it is a list of things to dislike about the EU.
I still have yet to see a list of concrete beneficial outcomes that result in the U.K. leaving the EU. |
It was also mostly the stuff of fantasy. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 12:10 - Dec 11 with 1598 views | Half_Idiot |
| I know this has been done to death on 12:01 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
The main issue with Medway’s post is that it is a list of things to dislike about the EU.
I still have yet to see a list of concrete beneficial outcomes that result in the U.K. leaving the EU. |
It's almost as if none exist | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 12:10 - Dec 11 with 1598 views | jeera |
| I know this has been done to death on 11:05 - Dec 11 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. If you look at the forces around the world and the challenges ahead then you want to be part of a voice that can’t be ignored. Rather than a junior partner that will just have to shut up and make do with what the bigger players decide.
All that’s on top of the EU being an important check and balance on our own disastrous government, politics and indeed democracy. Leaving that shelter means we’ll have to toughen up and grow up, which I have zero faith that we’re mature enough even to accept.
We’re basically like a 15 year old threatening to leave home, so blinded by our own stroppy self-righteousness that we have no idea what that means and what we’d be giving up. |
Trouble is we're no longer just threatening, the bag is packed and waiting at the bottom of the stairs.
It is bizarre how the world has spent so many years trying to come together and how many projects have been worked on as a unit, including peace keeping exercises that any single one country wouldn't be able to manage alone, (what is the issue with a European army btw? Surely would save a fortune), that I do not understand why so many people want to see it undone with a return to 'how things were'.
All I hear now is how our democracy has been taken away by the EU - do these people sit around an old piano in their homes singing songs about sovereignty? - and I'm not getting it. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 14:54 - Dec 11 with 1550 views | Radlett_blue |
| I know this has been done to death on 12:10 - Dec 11 by jeera |
Trouble is we're no longer just threatening, the bag is packed and waiting at the bottom of the stairs.
It is bizarre how the world has spent so many years trying to come together and how many projects have been worked on as a unit, including peace keeping exercises that any single one country wouldn't be able to manage alone, (what is the issue with a European army btw? Surely would save a fortune), that I do not understand why so many people want to see it undone with a return to 'how things were'.
All I hear now is how our democracy has been taken away by the EU - do these people sit around an old piano in their homes singing songs about sovereignty? - and I'm not getting it. |
A European army has been mooted in the past & arguably it would make more sense as the cost of defence is huge, but the EU has failed even to institute a common defence policy. Unsurprising when you have 27 member nations, who all have to agree if anything is ever to be done. I remember the Belgians refusing to sell ammunition to other EU countries during the first Gulf War (the defensible one).
This is a fundamental problem with a union of 27 states - it can work well as a free trade area, but once you start trying to apply common principles elsewhere, it's a disaster. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 14:59 - Dec 11 with 1547 views | footers |
| I know this has been done to death on 14:54 - Dec 11 by Radlett_blue |
A European army has been mooted in the past & arguably it would make more sense as the cost of defence is huge, but the EU has failed even to institute a common defence policy. Unsurprising when you have 27 member nations, who all have to agree if anything is ever to be done. I remember the Belgians refusing to sell ammunition to other EU countries during the first Gulf War (the defensible one).
This is a fundamental problem with a union of 27 states - it can work well as a free trade area, but once you start trying to apply common principles elsewhere, it's a disaster. |
So do you think we should also leave NATO? Asking genuinely as I think it's a bit of a relic and fairly meaningless in today's world. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 15:14 - Dec 11 with 1526 views | Radlett_blue |
| I know this has been done to death on 14:59 - Dec 11 by footers |
So do you think we should also leave NATO? Asking genuinely as I think it's a bit of a relic and fairly meaningless in today's world. |
NATO is interesting as Trump (for once) had a point when he said that if it was to continue, the Europeans should up their defence spend. Members (there are now 30 members, as opposed to the original 12) agreed to reach or maintain the target defence spending of at least 2% of GDP by 2024. This is typical political hogwash - European counties typically spend half of that on defence & it makes no sense for them to do so. NATO seems to me a relic of the Cold War & I don't see it serves a huge purpose, other than giving Europeans a sense of comfort that the US is an ally. Its last incursion was the disastrous intervention in Libya, while it also became involved in Afghanistan as part of George W Bush's bonkers "war on terror". | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 19:17 - Dec 11 with 1487 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 09:12 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
You can't say that with any certainty. Yes he was a vocal Eurosceptic during his political career but the political landscape has shifted and who knows what he would have made of those who were backing leave and their motives? It's just as feasible that when he saw Farage, Johnson and Gove lining up next to a bus and pushing a deregulatory future outside the EU that he'd have decided he was a reluctant remainer. It's a really weak argument, a Trekkie special. |
A weak argument? Oh come on, you can do better than random statements based on nothing.
The charge against me was that i couldn't be a Labour supporter if I, not even voted Brexit, but voted Remain on balance with some arguments for leaving that had been outweighed.
So to rebuff that charge i only need to give an example of clear left-wing Labour politician with equivalent views, whether Benn would have voted Leave is moot.
But even giving the benefit of moving the bar on that argument, i give you Dennis Skinner who voted to leave the EU WITHOUT A DEAL on 12/4/2019
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/divisions/pw-2019-03-27-386-commons/mp/10544
And i'm not even a Labour politician, i'm a Labour voter. I'm free to think independently on any issue.
So i think that puts that one to bed. [Post edited 11 Dec 2020 19:18]
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| I know this has been done to death on 19:26 - Dec 11 with 1483 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 09:22 - Dec 11 by footers |
For someone who apparently voted remain you don't half sound like someone who didn't. Not only on this thread but every other one too. See also: saying you didn't vote Tory. |
That could be because no-one has asked for further detail or questioned why i think leaving the EU would be a financial disaster, and why i think staying in a trading block and resisting further attempts at political union is much better than coming out altogether, because those views already align with the vast majority of like-minded respondents, whereas the ones that don't are pounced upon.
Never ever voted Conservative, not even tactically or in a local election. I don't need to convince anybody and no-one has to believe me. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 19:27 - Dec 11 with 1479 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 10:30 - Dec 11 by itfc_bucks |
which is, ironically, something you've managed to preclude me the option of. |
how? by voting to remain in the EU? | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 19:28 - Dec 11 with 1479 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:20 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Oh come on now the vast majority of ministers are elected MPs, and even if they aren't they are still applying a policy manifesto that was voted on by the electorate.
You can make the argument that even though law-makers are appointed and not elected, it is more democratic for other reasons and that's fine, but that bottom line is not how leave voters would see it. |
Or how they were told to see it.
Not every policy in a government's manifest gets enacted, and often governments will propose things not in the manifesto to respond to local and global events.
Plus, the amount of opt outs of EU legislation that we have negotiated over the years means that we very rarely (if at all) have had to enact EU legislation that the UK has fundamentally disagreed with |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 19:34 - Dec 11 with 1476 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 05:28 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
The implication was clear. |
It was clear that it was a genuine question as opposed to the perjorative version by the fact i said it was a genuine question as opposed to the perjorative version. What do you want here, a signed affidavit? | |
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