| I know this has been done to death 20:51 - Dec 10 with 10445 views | Coastalblue |
But can anybody give good reasons why we're still leaving the EU?* It's so depressing and probably worse than I actually imagined it was going to end up now all the chickens are beginning to come home to roost.
The easy answer is thick little Englanders, and that's probably true in some places but I can't believe that's true of all of those wanting to leave. There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)
I struggle to see a single positive to come out of it, let alone enough to make it all worthwhile, what am I missing.
I'm hoping to avoid the name calling etc that normally comes with the subject matter, and that I guess might put off anybody who thinks there are reasons from answering but a reasoned response from a Brexit believer would be gratefully appreciated.
*Aside from the fact I realise we've burnt our bridges now probably. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:15 - Dec 10 with 1258 views | jeera |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:11 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Don't reply then! Goodness me. |
To be fair it's not easy to hold a conversation if you're going to throw it off-track by making things up.
So he hasn't said anywhere that he thinks we should be in the Euro or Schengen.
That's just an antagonising distraction isn't it?
If you posted something and I replied, "Yeah but you want to import guinea pigs as potential sex toys" or something...
It's not helpful is it.
Unless you think that's a good idea of course. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:20 - Dec 10 with 1248 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:54 - Dec 10 by jeera |
Unless I missed a previous part of this conversation - which is entirely possible - he hasn't said he wants us to "be in the Euro or Schengen".
I am pro-EU but would have been more than happy if we had grasped the chance we had to push for some reform.
But to pretend we were in any way being forced to join the Euro or to become part of the Schengen area would not be true to my understanding. |
"EU has always been happy, to an extent, to pander to our parochial exceptionalism"
Considering 2 exceptions were cited immediately before, is it not natural to assume the parochial exceptionalism was referring to the exceptions ?, and therefore i was making the assumption that he was not referring to himself as a parochial exceptionalist. Maybe he is then? [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 23:46]
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:21 - Dec 10 with 1239 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:11 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Was Tony Benn a lefty? |
He was a hero of mine. Doesn't mean he was right about everything. Pretty sure he'd have never tried to defend to defend the current crop of crooks utilising his concerns over the EU in order to usher in an uber-deregulated 'global Britain' that works for no-one but ultra-rich criminals and their accomplices though. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 23:23]
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:25 - Dec 10 with 1231 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:13 - Dec 10 by SpruceMoose |
Are you comparing yourself to Tony Benn?
Mr. Bean, maybe. |
No but he would have voted to leave the EU, so he would be accused of not being from the left if he posted in this thread. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:28 - Dec 10 with 1229 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:59 - Dec 10 by Herbivore |
You haven't missed anything, I never said we should join the Euro or Schengen. Trekkie just wants an excuse to suggest I leave the country it seems. Such petty divisiveness from them. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 22:59]
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I was at pains to point out the question was genuine rather than a knee-jerk "why don't you leave this country mate", but carry on reading what you want to read. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:33 - Dec 10 with 1222 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:25 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
No but he would have voted to leave the EU, so he would be accused of not being from the left if he posted in this thread. |
No, I'd have accused him of being deeply naive, at best, if he thought that that voting for something that hard-right Tories were massively in favour of. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:34 - Dec 10 with 1221 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:21 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
He was a hero of mine. Doesn't mean he was right about everything. Pretty sure he'd have never tried to defend to defend the current crop of crooks utilising his concerns over the EU in order to usher in an uber-deregulated 'global Britain' that works for no-one but ultra-rich criminals and their accomplices though. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 23:23]
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One of our greatest politicians, whether right or wrong he was intelligent, genuine, inspirational and also patriotic. Agreed, he would be scathing about the current government, expecially the riding roughshot over our own parliament sovereignty themselves.
But he would have voted leave. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:38 - Dec 10 with 1213 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:33 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
No, I'd have accused him of being deeply naive, at best, if he thought that that voting for something that hard-right Tories were massively in favour of. |
I would always vote in what i believed in regardless of who voted with me. Sometimes you can reach the same conclusion for wildly different reasons. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:42 - Dec 10 with 1209 views | Darth_Koont |
An interesting thread although the basic anti-EU, pro-Brexit argument boils down to Them vs. Us.
Not realising that our own politicians are the very worst of Them. And lying to Us to hide that. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:42 - Dec 10 with 1205 views | mrshallisfit |
But at least those chickens will be nicely chlorinated from the US. |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:44 - Dec 10 with 1201 views | tractordownsouth |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:12 - Dec 10 by J2BLUE |
It was a collective tantrum lashing out at the wrong target. By the time many of us realised that and wanted to change our minds it was too late. The loudest voices drowned out all the counter arguments and all the polls showing a majority were now actually against it.
It was like having a drunk one night stand and then being forced to marry the woman. Once we sobered up there was no chance to correct the mistake.
There should have been a confirmation vote. This is the deal, do you still want it? With that said, ultimate responsibility lies with those of us who voted for it and we must accept that. |
Not your fault mate. Blame the people who told you the lies. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:45 - Dec 10 with 1204 views | Trequartista |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:15 - Dec 10 by jeera |
To be fair it's not easy to hold a conversation if you're going to throw it off-track by making things up.
So he hasn't said anywhere that he thinks we should be in the Euro or Schengen.
That's just an antagonising distraction isn't it?
If you posted something and I replied, "Yeah but you want to import guinea pigs as potential sex toys" or something...
It's not helpful is it.
Unless you think that's a good idea of course. |
I think its a bit disingenuous to throw in something from a different conversation elsewhere on the thread to defend this, but i did reply directly there.
I know this has been done to death by Trequartista 10 Dec 2020 23:20"EU has always been happy, to an extent, to pander to our parochial exceptionalism"
Considering 2 exceptions were cited immediately before, is it not natural to assume the parochial exceptionalism was referring to the exceptions ?, and therefore i was making the assumption that he was not referring to himself as a parochial exceptionalist. Maybe he is then?
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| I know this has been done to death on 23:49 - Dec 10 with 1194 views | Darth_Koont |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:21 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
He was a hero of mine. Doesn't mean he was right about everything. Pretty sure he'd have never tried to defend to defend the current crop of crooks utilising his concerns over the EU in order to usher in an uber-deregulated 'global Britain' that works for no-one but ultra-rich criminals and their accomplices though. [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 23:23]
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You what?
In what way was he your hero and how are you living up to that today? Genuinely flabbergasted given your cynical attitude to progressive politics. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 00:01 - Dec 11 with 1183 views | BlueBadger |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:38 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
I would always vote in what i believed in regardless of who voted with me. Sometimes you can reach the same conclusion for wildly different reasons. |
In short, you were right, but the wrong 'un's you were aligning yourself with weren't? | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 00:10 - Dec 11 with 1172 views | reusersfreekicks |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:46 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
I think the MEPs are elected but they vote on legislation drawn up by an unelected body, so maybe unelected commissioners is more accurate than unelected politicians. |
What like civil servants? |  | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 00:16 - Dec 11 with 1164 views | reusersfreekicks |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:42 - Dec 10 by MedwayTractor |
You say "There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)."
I leave it to others to decide if I fall in the category of people with intelligence, but here's my side of the story:
ONE: I voted yes in the 1970s referendum, on the understanding that we would be joining a trading bloc. The reality is different, the underlying purpose is, and always has been, to create a United States of Europe. If I had been told that 50 years ago, I would have voted No. I suspect that a large number would have done the same, but not only did the Six never admit this underlying purpose, but our politicians knew the truth and concealed it from the electorate.
TWO: The countries which signed the Treaty of Rome, ie France, Germany, Italy and Benelux, are continentally inclined, not particularly maritime and certainly not global in outlook. They had no well organised agriculture (except The Netherlands) and did not have such an extensive maritime sector, if at all. These two sectors of our economy have been (1) transformed to a command economy type of structure and (2) destroyed. In my view, the Treaty of Rome should have been torn up in 1973 and re-written to take into account the different economic landscape of the Nine. That this did not happen seems to me in a large part aimed at protecting the interests of France & Germany.
THREE: About 40 years ago, my job involved a task which monitored the performance of a privately owned portfolio of commercial property investments. In addition this included, unusually, let agricultural estates, comprising large swathes of Grade I and II arable land, with numerous farms and, in some cases, whole villages. The owners of this portfolio obtained funds from Brussels to pay for improvement works, including drainage schemes, new buildings, etc. This meant that they could increase the rents, thus increasing the value of the estates and, thereby, creating profit. The works did not necessarily result in increased productivity and were most likely, therefore, to result in higher food prices. The Brussels money was not, as you might hope and would expect, by way of loans, it was as grants. In other words, taxpayers money which we sent to Brussels was being handed out to a private company with no obligation whatsoever to pay it back. I can probably date my Euroscepticism to this time.
FOUR: My objection to the Common Market (sorry, I can't help still calling it that) goes far deeper than concerns about funding, employment, immigration, etc. It concerns the fundamental difference between the structure of our country and most of continental Europe. Do you know the difference between Anglo-Saxon law and Roman law? We live under the principles of Anglo-Saxon law, by which we can do what we want, unless the law says we can't. In Roman law, it is exactly the opposite, the people can do only what is permitted by the law. (This is behind rules like no washing on the line on Sundays). The unelected politicians driving the principal purpose of the EC (see point ONE above) would insist that all member states have the same structure and I couldn't see the outcome of this as anything else but the imposition of Roman Law on the UK, not necessarily all at once, but so gradually that we wouldn't notice what has happened.
FIVE: Following on from FOUR, another fundamental difference. Our criminal justice system is based on trial by jury, the assumption of innocence and the separation of powers. (This last one means that the parts of the system responsible for investigating a crime, prosecuting the accused and sitting in judgement are independent from each other). Some countries in Europe do not have this separation and do not, as far as I am aware, have trial by jury for all. The French, for example, have investigating magistrates, therefore responsible for both investigating and trying a case. Could you envisage the French giving up their system in favour of ours?
I voted Leave to stop other countries from destroying our way of life and imposing theirs on us. I can't imagine for a second that the French would consent to any demand from us for them to do things our way. The last (nearly) 50 years have shown me that we are the ones who always get the raw deal.
In the long term, the economy, employment etc are likely to be subject to the usual fluctuations as time goes by. [As you might have guessed, my career was in property and I've seen at least four major property market crashes, but eventually the line on the graph goes up again]. My points FOUR and FIVE concern things that, once gone, will be gone forever. Voting for Brexit gave me the opportunity to do my bit to ensure that we don't lose these things from our lives.
If you've got this far, dear reader, I hope you have been able to follow my reasoning and are able to understand my position, although I don't necessarily expect you to agree with me. I don't necessarily disagree with European co-operation, or even integration, but I believe most strongly that the European Community as it exists today is flawed beyond redemption and, therefore, is not fit for purpose. As far as I am concerned, thank God (if you believe in gods) we're out. |
Amazing how long this united states of Europe myth has been bouncing around and yet the EU is still nothing like it | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 00:46 - Dec 11 with 1147 views | Darth_Koont |
| I know this has been done to death on 22:42 - Dec 10 by MedwayTractor |
You say "There must be some people with intelligence who believe in this? If so, can you give me reasons why you think it's for the best? (still)."
I leave it to others to decide if I fall in the category of people with intelligence, but here's my side of the story:
ONE: I voted yes in the 1970s referendum, on the understanding that we would be joining a trading bloc. The reality is different, the underlying purpose is, and always has been, to create a United States of Europe. If I had been told that 50 years ago, I would have voted No. I suspect that a large number would have done the same, but not only did the Six never admit this underlying purpose, but our politicians knew the truth and concealed it from the electorate.
TWO: The countries which signed the Treaty of Rome, ie France, Germany, Italy and Benelux, are continentally inclined, not particularly maritime and certainly not global in outlook. They had no well organised agriculture (except The Netherlands) and did not have such an extensive maritime sector, if at all. These two sectors of our economy have been (1) transformed to a command economy type of structure and (2) destroyed. In my view, the Treaty of Rome should have been torn up in 1973 and re-written to take into account the different economic landscape of the Nine. That this did not happen seems to me in a large part aimed at protecting the interests of France & Germany.
THREE: About 40 years ago, my job involved a task which monitored the performance of a privately owned portfolio of commercial property investments. In addition this included, unusually, let agricultural estates, comprising large swathes of Grade I and II arable land, with numerous farms and, in some cases, whole villages. The owners of this portfolio obtained funds from Brussels to pay for improvement works, including drainage schemes, new buildings, etc. This meant that they could increase the rents, thus increasing the value of the estates and, thereby, creating profit. The works did not necessarily result in increased productivity and were most likely, therefore, to result in higher food prices. The Brussels money was not, as you might hope and would expect, by way of loans, it was as grants. In other words, taxpayers money which we sent to Brussels was being handed out to a private company with no obligation whatsoever to pay it back. I can probably date my Euroscepticism to this time.
FOUR: My objection to the Common Market (sorry, I can't help still calling it that) goes far deeper than concerns about funding, employment, immigration, etc. It concerns the fundamental difference between the structure of our country and most of continental Europe. Do you know the difference between Anglo-Saxon law and Roman law? We live under the principles of Anglo-Saxon law, by which we can do what we want, unless the law says we can't. In Roman law, it is exactly the opposite, the people can do only what is permitted by the law. (This is behind rules like no washing on the line on Sundays). The unelected politicians driving the principal purpose of the EC (see point ONE above) would insist that all member states have the same structure and I couldn't see the outcome of this as anything else but the imposition of Roman Law on the UK, not necessarily all at once, but so gradually that we wouldn't notice what has happened.
FIVE: Following on from FOUR, another fundamental difference. Our criminal justice system is based on trial by jury, the assumption of innocence and the separation of powers. (This last one means that the parts of the system responsible for investigating a crime, prosecuting the accused and sitting in judgement are independent from each other). Some countries in Europe do not have this separation and do not, as far as I am aware, have trial by jury for all. The French, for example, have investigating magistrates, therefore responsible for both investigating and trying a case. Could you envisage the French giving up their system in favour of ours?
I voted Leave to stop other countries from destroying our way of life and imposing theirs on us. I can't imagine for a second that the French would consent to any demand from us for them to do things our way. The last (nearly) 50 years have shown me that we are the ones who always get the raw deal.
In the long term, the economy, employment etc are likely to be subject to the usual fluctuations as time goes by. [As you might have guessed, my career was in property and I've seen at least four major property market crashes, but eventually the line on the graph goes up again]. My points FOUR and FIVE concern things that, once gone, will be gone forever. Voting for Brexit gave me the opportunity to do my bit to ensure that we don't lose these things from our lives.
If you've got this far, dear reader, I hope you have been able to follow my reasoning and are able to understand my position, although I don't necessarily expect you to agree with me. I don't necessarily disagree with European co-operation, or even integration, but I believe most strongly that the European Community as it exists today is flawed beyond redemption and, therefore, is not fit for purpose. As far as I am concerned, thank God (if you believe in gods) we're out. |
ONE: That’s a particular UK view and tied into competition with Germany and France. If the UK had committed properly then the balance of power would have been shared even more. But despite that the majority of EU countries realise their practical sovereignty (not their fantasy sovereignty that we like to trade on) is reinforced by being part of the world’s strongest trading bloc rather than being on the outside. This basic misconception is at the heart of the Brexiteer angst.
TWO: Diversity in a trading bloc is highly advantageous. And wasn’t it the UK that was most interested in bringing in more diverse Eastern European economies to strengthen its own economy and get even more out of the EU?
THREE: There may be disadvantages with the CAP and the EU commitment to regions. But let’s see how our own sovereign government handles that. I don’t think it’s the EU’s fault that we’ve been crap at that and it’s worrying how that’s all going to change post-Brexit.
FOUR: B@ll@cks. It’s 2020 and best practice is a global issue. There is no Anglo-Saxon law that takes precedence for cultural reasons, only rational and equitable ones. Our struggle with ECHR is much more of a warning than any sign we have moral and legal superiority.
FIVE: Ditto. And you’re doubling down on a moral and legal superiority that doesn’t exist.
Yes, I got this far. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 01:05 - Dec 11 with 1120 views | IPS_wich |
| I know this has been done to death on 00:46 - Dec 11 by Darth_Koont |
ONE: That’s a particular UK view and tied into competition with Germany and France. If the UK had committed properly then the balance of power would have been shared even more. But despite that the majority of EU countries realise their practical sovereignty (not their fantasy sovereignty that we like to trade on) is reinforced by being part of the world’s strongest trading bloc rather than being on the outside. This basic misconception is at the heart of the Brexiteer angst.
TWO: Diversity in a trading bloc is highly advantageous. And wasn’t it the UK that was most interested in bringing in more diverse Eastern European economies to strengthen its own economy and get even more out of the EU?
THREE: There may be disadvantages with the CAP and the EU commitment to regions. But let’s see how our own sovereign government handles that. I don’t think it’s the EU’s fault that we’ve been crap at that and it’s worrying how that’s all going to change post-Brexit.
FOUR: B@ll@cks. It’s 2020 and best practice is a global issue. There is no Anglo-Saxon law that takes precedence for cultural reasons, only rational and equitable ones. Our struggle with ECHR is much more of a warning than any sign we have moral and legal superiority.
FIVE: Ditto. And you’re doubling down on a moral and legal superiority that doesn’t exist.
Yes, I got this far. |
I'm still tempted to up vote Medway's response though - because whilst I disagree with all five of his points, at least they are well reasoned - with the exception of #5 which is scaremongering because I've not seen anything to seriously suggest that staying in the EU would threaten trial by jury.
As for #3 - we are (as is Europe) a capitalist society. So what if the EU gave a grant to improve the value and therefore rental returns on arable land - that's precisely what economic stimulus is - and post-COVID we will see many examples from the UK government - and that's a good thing just as long as those grants are tendered and awarded fairly. I'm sure we can all agree that the current government are beyond approach with regards to that!! | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 01:53 - Dec 11 with 1097 views | HARRY10 |
The real concern is that I don't think many grasp the full horrors of this nonsense. The damaging compromises have yet to be seen
Having to find a way to get EU hauliers to enter GB with the red tape that will follow. Finding nw markets for UK caught 'fish' that only sell on the continent.
Having to make compromise to permit UK airlines to fly over EU airspace. Seeing manufacturers who are reliant upon 'just in time' delivery move out of the UK as the costs of delay make their being here loss making.
UK farming slowly collapse as tariffs make their products uncompetitive and cheap produced goods from the US undercut them'
Red tape will make it harder for foreign students to study in the UK, like wise non UK medical staff to work. Benefits will be cut as pressure will be put on UK workers to cover the shortage of EU workers - however the work is suited to their abilities.
A few months back I posted on here how much damage this nonsense would be shown the nearer it got to 2021. The damage in 2021 will be long and painful - mostly for those dimwits that voted for it. | | | |
| I know this has been done to death on 02:26 - Dec 11 with 1086 views | bournemouthblue |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:25 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
Because what was once a trading block became a political vehicle and the majority do not want to belong to a United States of Europe with unelected politicans.
However there is no doubt it will be so financially devastating to leave, especially without a deal, as we have become so deeply entrenched in the thing and therefore on balance i voted to remain and would do again. But i understand why people who are not far-right fanatics voted to leave. |
The Unelected jibe always makes me chuckle
We literally have a House of Lords, we are one of about four nations including Iran who still have unelected peers and yet we cry foul about a lack of democracy
We were major player in the EU, many of their laws were drafted by British lawyers, given our common law is seen as a high class legal system
We literally helped write the rule book and now we don't like it
We had a pretty good deal with the EU by not having the Euro and not being in the Schengen Zone. In fact some Polish friends of mine said they never considered the UK fully in because of that. We got the best of both worlds.
The Euro may have it's issues but actually sharing the same currency, across the EU zone helps the flow of goods, you don't get the currency fluctuations which can causes frictions in trade.
Turning our back on our nearest trade market is foolish.
Yes I could go and buy some items from further a field but I generally do most of my business with people near me.
If I was likely to setup a local business, I'm always more likely to do business in nearby Towns and Cities, it's not that I couldn't trade
further afield, it's simply a case of logistics.
What many of the Brexit nutters always seemed to forget is that geography plays a massive part in trade along with culture which we tend to share with Europe.
Yes we are probably likely to trade well with Commonwealth Nations but we don't have an empire any more, that's what formed our wealth when we were a super power.
The only way we will compete on the glob stage with these massive entities like China is if we group together with others or we will continue to fall further and further behind.
That is the reality.
The Tories seemed to be pinning their hopes on the US as an alternative but it isn't that simple. [Post edited 11 Dec 2020 2:30]
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| I know this has been done to death on 05:27 - Dec 11 with 1038 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:20 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
"EU has always been happy, to an extent, to pander to our parochial exceptionalism"
Considering 2 exceptions were cited immediately before, is it not natural to assume the parochial exceptionalism was referring to the exceptions ?, and therefore i was making the assumption that he was not referring to himself as a parochial exceptionalist. Maybe he is then? [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 23:46]
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Impressive mental gymnastics coupled with a lack of comprehension. Top Trekking. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 05:28 - Dec 11 with 1034 views | Herbivore |
| I know this has been done to death on 23:28 - Dec 10 by Trequartista |
I was at pains to point out the question was genuine rather than a knee-jerk "why don't you leave this country mate", but carry on reading what you want to read. |
The implication was clear. | |
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| I know this has been done to death on 06:35 - Dec 11 with 1022 views | Pendejo |
| I know this has been done to death on 01:05 - Dec 11 by IPS_wich |
I'm still tempted to up vote Medway's response though - because whilst I disagree with all five of his points, at least they are well reasoned - with the exception of #5 which is scaremongering because I've not seen anything to seriously suggest that staying in the EU would threaten trial by jury.
As for #3 - we are (as is Europe) a capitalist society. So what if the EU gave a grant to improve the value and therefore rental returns on arable land - that's precisely what economic stimulus is - and post-COVID we will see many examples from the UK government - and that's a good thing just as long as those grants are tendered and awarded fairly. I'm sure we can all agree that the current government are beyond approach with regards to that!! |
I did update Medway Tractor's post precisely because of breakdown and presentation of logical reasoning.
However, I am for the French Investigating magistrate system over trial by jury especially when it comes to complex cases such as fraud where often companies do not proceed to prosecution in the belief, usually on the part of cps or police, that if put before a jury of "common" people they won't understand it and reasonable doubt will remain. Hence, often they find the cheapest way out.
Personally in favour of EEC not EU, but then our current rulers are hardly a shining example of socially responsible governance. |  |
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| I know this has been done to death on 08:19 - Dec 11 with 981 views | GeoffSentence |
| I know this has been done to death on 21:56 - Dec 10 by Clapham_Junction |
Commissioners are appointed by elected governments, and then voted on by the EU parliament.
The EU is no more undemocratic than our own government (and arguably less so given that it is elected using PR). Incredibly frustrating that this nonsense persists more than four years on.
If someone claims it will get us out of the ECHR I may say something very rude. |
Given that our second chamber isn't elected at all but is a house full of appointed cronies, a few who are there because of their religious beliefs and, this beggars belief in the 21st century, a few toffs who are there because they have inherited a lordship, there is no doubt that the UK is much, much less democratic than the EU or any other country in it. |  |
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