| Don't know if it's been mentioned already 00:15 - Dec 16 with 3943 views | Garv |
But can we just appreciate how good McGuinness was tonight please?
He has a bizarre ability to be able to kick the ball if he misses a header and head the ball if he misses a kick. Some outrageous touches and turns in the middle of the park too. |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:12 - Dec 16 with 545 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:09 - Dec 16 by Chrisd |
I’d have a closer look at the more experienced players in our side that mistakes and they are our own players. |
The fact that our own players make mistakes doesn't cancel out McGuinness's. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:16 - Dec 16 with 549 views | clive_baker |
Didn't watch last night but he's a proper throwback of a defender. Short shorts, beast in the air, decent on the ball but sometimes tries too much for me. I don't think we help ourselves that we play so much football in our third and our back 4 are expected to create so much. We're too cute in that respect. McGuinness will make mistakes, he's young, but give him 3 or 4 years and he'll be a very decent player. Lacks a yard of pace though, which will be a challenge for him. Can see him as a good player at Championship level. |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:24 - Dec 16 with 524 views | Chrisd |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:16 - Dec 16 by clive_baker |
Didn't watch last night but he's a proper throwback of a defender. Short shorts, beast in the air, decent on the ball but sometimes tries too much for me. I don't think we help ourselves that we play so much football in our third and our back 4 are expected to create so much. We're too cute in that respect. McGuinness will make mistakes, he's young, but give him 3 or 4 years and he'll be a very decent player. Lacks a yard of pace though, which will be a challenge for him. Can see him as a good player at Championship level. |
I’d like to see him alongside a good quality CB with proven quality, he’d be a different player. Many of us can see he’s got potential, he needs someone to help him and coach him through games especially as it’s the start of his career. |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:47 - Dec 16 with 511 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:09 - Dec 16 by Chrisd |
I’d have a closer look at the more experienced players in our side that mistakes and they are our own players. |
They're not making the kind of mistakes that lead to goals as frequently as he is. He's given away a couple of penalties and was a bit fortunate not to give away another against Shrewsbury. He's hit misplaced passes that have led to chances and goals. He's missed interceptions and been caught out of position leading to us conceding. It happens far too often and there is no upside to it for us. He may well learn and be a good defender in 2 years' time but that doesn't help us much when we're still stuck in League 1. |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:58 - Dec 16 with 505 views | Chrisd |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:47 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
They're not making the kind of mistakes that lead to goals as frequently as he is. He's given away a couple of penalties and was a bit fortunate not to give away another against Shrewsbury. He's hit misplaced passes that have led to chances and goals. He's missed interceptions and been caught out of position leading to us conceding. It happens far too often and there is no upside to it for us. He may well learn and be a good defender in 2 years' time but that doesn't help us much when we're still stuck in League 1. |
Yeah ok, we’ll agree to disagree. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:33 - Dec 16 with 480 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:58 - Dec 16 by Chrisd |
Yeah ok, we’ll agree to disagree. |
Which bit are you disagreeing with exactly? He's made a number of mistakes that have led to goals, that is a fact. He is not our player so his development and scope to improve is of no benefit to us, that is also a fact. I am not sure exactly what we're agreeing to disagree about? | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:35 - Dec 16 with 475 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:16 - Dec 16 by clive_baker |
Didn't watch last night but he's a proper throwback of a defender. Short shorts, beast in the air, decent on the ball but sometimes tries too much for me. I don't think we help ourselves that we play so much football in our third and our back 4 are expected to create so much. We're too cute in that respect. McGuinness will make mistakes, he's young, but give him 3 or 4 years and he'll be a very decent player. Lacks a yard of pace though, which will be a challenge for him. Can see him as a good player at Championship level. |
All well and good, and if he was our player I'd be up for giving him game time to develop. But he's not. He's here so we can knock the roughest of his edges off so that Arsenal can loan him to a Championship side next season. That's a rather depressing indictment of what we've become, but it's also why I don't see the value in continuing to play him when knocking the edges off him is costing us goals, and I don't think the pairing of him and Woolfie has the experience needed for this level. I'd rather we continue to develop Woolfie and play someone more experienced in there to shore things up a bit. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:44 - Dec 16 with 451 views | X0Y0 |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:01 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
Whether he goes on to be a top player or not isn't really my concern. My concern is whether he is an asset to us for the season he's here. On what I've seen he makes too many big errors that lead to goals and I don't think him and Woolfie, at a combined age of 40, really works as a CB pairing. My priority would be Woolfie's development over McGuiness's so I'm hoping we reintroduce some experience to the CB pairing soon. |
Arguably his comfort on the ball and distirbution is better than any of our other CB's, and therefore that is what be brings to the team. You rarely get a complete centre-back at this level, no matter their age.
I think he is clearly improving, but as mentioned is prone to an error. Both he and Woolfenden would benefit from experience alongside them. Once, or I should say if, KVY returns to fitness I would like to see KVY at RB and then Chambers alongside Woolfenden in the centre, McGuinness on the bench. Chambers appears to have improved on the ball this year which should help our ability to play out short / long from the back when needed. | | | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:49 - Dec 16 with 445 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:44 - Dec 16 by X0Y0 |
Arguably his comfort on the ball and distirbution is better than any of our other CB's, and therefore that is what be brings to the team. You rarely get a complete centre-back at this level, no matter their age.
I think he is clearly improving, but as mentioned is prone to an error. Both he and Woolfenden would benefit from experience alongside them. Once, or I should say if, KVY returns to fitness I would like to see KVY at RB and then Chambers alongside Woolfenden in the centre, McGuinness on the bench. Chambers appears to have improved on the ball this year which should help our ability to play out short / long from the back when needed. |
I think Woolfie is much better than him on the ball from what I've seen. He looks more comfortable on it and doesn't give it away as much. The problem with defenders making errors is the likelihood that they lead to goals. That's why taking a rookie CB on loan isn't necessarily wise. Taking a rookie winger or attacking midfielder on loan is less of a problem as they are making errors in areas where you are less likely to get punished.
I agree that once KVY is back (fingers crossed) we need Chambers back alongside Woolfie and McGuiness dropping down to the bench to provide cover. I really worry what Peterborough might do to McGuiness and Woolfie this weekend. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:55 - Dec 16 with 442 views | jayessess |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:49 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
I think Woolfie is much better than him on the ball from what I've seen. He looks more comfortable on it and doesn't give it away as much. The problem with defenders making errors is the likelihood that they lead to goals. That's why taking a rookie CB on loan isn't necessarily wise. Taking a rookie winger or attacking midfielder on loan is less of a problem as they are making errors in areas where you are less likely to get punished.
I agree that once KVY is back (fingers crossed) we need Chambers back alongside Woolfie and McGuiness dropping down to the bench to provide cover. I really worry what Peterborough might do to McGuiness and Woolfie this weekend. |
Exception to the rule: Cameron Carter-Vickers. |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:55 - Dec 16 with 442 views | Chrisd |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:33 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
Which bit are you disagreeing with exactly? He's made a number of mistakes that have led to goals, that is a fact. He is not our player so his development and scope to improve is of no benefit to us, that is also a fact. I am not sure exactly what we're agreeing to disagree about? |
God, you do waffle on, but lets not consider the countless mistakes Woolfenden, Chambers, Ward, Nsiala have made that seems conveniently forgotten. Why not, because they are our players? If someone doesn't agree with you, this incessant craving that they must. I don't agree with your view, it's that simple. Hopefully, that's a little clearer for you. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:55 - Dec 16 with 442 views | JakeITFC |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:49 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
I think Woolfie is much better than him on the ball from what I've seen. He looks more comfortable on it and doesn't give it away as much. The problem with defenders making errors is the likelihood that they lead to goals. That's why taking a rookie CB on loan isn't necessarily wise. Taking a rookie winger or attacking midfielder on loan is less of a problem as they are making errors in areas where you are less likely to get punished.
I agree that once KVY is back (fingers crossed) we need Chambers back alongside Woolfie and McGuiness dropping down to the bench to provide cover. I really worry what Peterborough might do to McGuiness and Woolfie this weekend. |
I think McGuinness looks better than Woolfenden at the moment personally, they are both quite clumsy as it stands (but we may as well stick with Woolf as he is ours). |  | | |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:58 - Dec 16 with 441 views | clive_baker |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:35 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
All well and good, and if he was our player I'd be up for giving him game time to develop. But he's not. He's here so we can knock the roughest of his edges off so that Arsenal can loan him to a Championship side next season. That's a rather depressing indictment of what we've become, but it's also why I don't see the value in continuing to play him when knocking the edges off him is costing us goals, and I don't think the pairing of him and Woolfie has the experience needed for this level. I'd rather we continue to develop Woolfie and play someone more experienced in there to shore things up a bit. |
Don't disagree, and that's the nature of being in division 3 with regards to who you can attract on loan.
You have to ask yourself, on balance does he merit his place in the side, if the answer is no then he shouldn't start, regardless of ownership. If it's yes, but marginally better than the alternatives that we actually own, then it becomes a tricky balance between nurturing our own in favour of someone elses. Ideally with a loanee, they overwhelmingly justify their place because they're of a higher standard than anyone we could sign in the permanent market, as MM did so well with the likes of Fraser and Lawrence. I don't think any of Lamberts loan signings since he's been here can make that claim.
I would say he's in that middle pot, for me he's been the stronger of the 2 between him and Woolfy, but perhaps not by enough to justify propelling him above LW given he'll be heading back to Arsenal at the end of the season. I agree, the optimum is probably Woolfenden starting alongside a more senior head such as Chambers when KVY returns, with McGuinness as a more than able deputy. Assuming KVY can get fit, then something has to give defensively. He either slots in for either fullback, or he goes RB and a CB makes way for Chambers. That feels more likely IMO. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:02 - Dec 16 with 432 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:55 - Dec 16 by jayessess |
Exception to the rule: Cameron Carter-Vickers. |
Although he was a bit older and had played for half a season at Sheffield United already. We played him in a three as well, which makes more sense when developing a rookie CB. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:03 - Dec 16 with 431 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:55 - Dec 16 by Chrisd |
God, you do waffle on, but lets not consider the countless mistakes Woolfenden, Chambers, Ward, Nsiala have made that seems conveniently forgotten. Why not, because they are our players? If someone doesn't agree with you, this incessant craving that they must. I don't agree with your view, it's that simple. Hopefully, that's a little clearer for you. |
Okay, I make you wrong but let's leave it there. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:03 - Dec 16 with 430 views | Chrisd |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:58 - Dec 16 by clive_baker |
Don't disagree, and that's the nature of being in division 3 with regards to who you can attract on loan.
You have to ask yourself, on balance does he merit his place in the side, if the answer is no then he shouldn't start, regardless of ownership. If it's yes, but marginally better than the alternatives that we actually own, then it becomes a tricky balance between nurturing our own in favour of someone elses. Ideally with a loanee, they overwhelmingly justify their place because they're of a higher standard than anyone we could sign in the permanent market, as MM did so well with the likes of Fraser and Lawrence. I don't think any of Lamberts loan signings since he's been here can make that claim.
I would say he's in that middle pot, for me he's been the stronger of the 2 between him and Woolfy, but perhaps not by enough to justify propelling him above LW given he'll be heading back to Arsenal at the end of the season. I agree, the optimum is probably Woolfenden starting alongside a more senior head such as Chambers when KVY returns, with McGuinness as a more than able deputy. Assuming KVY can get fit, then something has to give defensively. He either slots in for either fullback, or he goes RB and a CB makes way for Chambers. That feels more likely IMO. |
I certainly wouldn't say Woolfenden is pulling up any trees this season. There's no doubt he is a very good player, but this season he's been far from convincing. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:06 - Dec 16 with 425 views | gordon |
No - really poor, unnecessary pass which led to their goal, and then another poor mistake which led to them almost scoring in the last five minutes. |  | | |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:12 - Dec 16 with 415 views | clive_baker |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:24 - Dec 16 by Chrisd |
I’d like to see him alongside a good quality CB with proven quality, he’d be a different player. Many of us can see he’s got potential, he needs someone to help him and coach him through games especially as it’s the start of his career. |
In an ideal world I agree with that, but the reality of the situation we find ourselves in now is we either go with this back 4, option 2 is we bring in Donacien at RB and play Chambers centrally, or option 3 we start Toto. They're really the only 3 options, and I think we've probably landed on the right one for now, albeit not ideal.
The sooner Wilson and KVY get back the sooner we're blessed with more options. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:20 - Dec 16 with 399 views | Herbivore |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:12 - Dec 16 by clive_baker |
In an ideal world I agree with that, but the reality of the situation we find ourselves in now is we either go with this back 4, option 2 is we bring in Donacien at RB and play Chambers centrally, or option 3 we start Toto. They're really the only 3 options, and I think we've probably landed on the right one for now, albeit not ideal.
The sooner Wilson and KVY get back the sooner we're blessed with more options. |
Chrisd's suggestion also involves us dropping Woolfenden to develop a player for Arsenal, which I'm not sure most fans would be up for. If we had a quality experienced CB available then surely we'd want to play him alongside our own talented young player? I know I aoould. Even in that scenario I make McGuiness back up.
I said back when we signed him that it was an odd one nd that we really should have been looking at signing a RB if it was the case that KVY was out for a while. Chambers is now starting to struggle a bit playing at right back, which we knew would happen, and we look woefully short of experience in the middle. If we'd signed a right back on loan instead we'd have two less problems than we have currently. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:24 - Dec 16 with 391 views | SaleAway |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 09:09 - Dec 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're blaming someone who tried to rectify McGuinness's mistake? |
Yeah. I'm assuming, given that most of our attack seem to start with long diagonal balls, that he's been asked to play those sort of balls, which are often risky. yes, the ball was lost, but there's no way it should have led to a goal. It was a simple task for Jackson to stop that attack, and he failed. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:27 - Dec 16 with 388 views | clive_baker |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:20 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
Chrisd's suggestion also involves us dropping Woolfenden to develop a player for Arsenal, which I'm not sure most fans would be up for. If we had a quality experienced CB available then surely we'd want to play him alongside our own talented young player? I know I aoould. Even in that scenario I make McGuiness back up.
I said back when we signed him that it was an odd one nd that we really should have been looking at signing a RB if it was the case that KVY was out for a while. Chambers is now starting to struggle a bit playing at right back, which we knew would happen, and we look woefully short of experience in the middle. If we'd signed a right back on loan instead we'd have two less problems than we have currently. |
In a straight choice between Woolfenden or McGuinness I would keep Woolfy in on the basis he has enough credit in the bank and it makes more sense to develop our own. However ore immediately, given the alternatives I think playing both is the least worst option. Toto is a liability, and has been since he joined, and I really don't rate Donacien at all.
Thinking out loud for a second, switching Woolfenden and Chambers isn't completely out of the question, given LW has played a decent amount of football at right back. | |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:28 - Dec 16 with 386 views | MrTown |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 10:49 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
I think Woolfie is much better than him on the ball from what I've seen. He looks more comfortable on it and doesn't give it away as much. The problem with defenders making errors is the likelihood that they lead to goals. That's why taking a rookie CB on loan isn't necessarily wise. Taking a rookie winger or attacking midfielder on loan is less of a problem as they are making errors in areas where you are less likely to get punished.
I agree that once KVY is back (fingers crossed) we need Chambers back alongside Woolfie and McGuiness dropping down to the bench to provide cover. I really worry what Peterborough might do to McGuiness and Woolfie this weekend. |
Woolfenden looks poor at the moment, a lot of long aimless balls.
Looks a shadow of himself from last year. |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:44 - Dec 16 with 372 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:24 - Dec 16 by SaleAway |
Yeah. I'm assuming, given that most of our attack seem to start with long diagonal balls, that he's been asked to play those sort of balls, which are often risky. yes, the ball was lost, but there's no way it should have led to a goal. It was a simple task for Jackson to stop that attack, and he failed. |
It wasn't simple for Jackson to stop the attack, else he would've done. It was more simple for McGuinness to pass to a Town player in the first place.
Blaming Jackson is like blaming the fireman for the fire. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 11:50 - Dec 16 with 364 views | Dyland |
He almost badly sprained his ankle treading on the ball, and turned a comedy moment into attacking intent. Those are the moments that make footy worth watching. Sublime or ridiculous, whatever.
#Touré'sCorner |  |
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| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 12:01 - Dec 16 with 355 views | ArnieM |
| Don't know if it's been mentioned already on 08:31 - Dec 16 by Herbivore |
I don't know how often I have to repeat this. There is no benefit at all to us of him spending a season here learning from mistakes that are costing us goals most weeks. He's not our player. |
but is he better than what we currently have , that is ours and is currently fit ? |  |
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