| Tragic and avoidable on 10:40 - Jan 29 with 1133 views | chicoazul |
I’d be interested to know how you could prosecute people for “radicalising” and where the line is ? |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:40 - Jan 29 with 1130 views | eireblue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:09 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
I'm sorry GB but I think you are way out on this. As tragic as this death is you cannot blame ( and prosecute ) random people just because he may have agreed with some of their views. Do we have any evidence that the people you have mentioned were part of this facebook group he followed?
This Man was 46 years old and as far as we know from the article was of sound mind and responsible for his own decisions and actions.
I have no time for Corbyn but JHB and Talk Radio have every right to challenge and question Government policy including lockdown's. It is pretty clear Lockdown's have a downside as well as any upside in relation to Covid and as such people have every right to question / challenge the policy.
We had in the region of 40'000 excess deaths in the home last year that were non-covid deaths, what do you put these down to? and why do you think we should not be asking if Lockdown policy was an indirect cause of some of them?
What exactly is a 'Lockdown denier' anyway? You are conflating people asking genuine and necessary questions with barmy conspiracy theorists like Corbyn and that is simply not right. |
Some people think the Holocaust didn’t happen.
Other people act on that opinion or spread that opinion.
Some countries make Holocaust denial illegal.
It is perfectly possible to hold people accountable for spreading falsehoods dressed up as opinion. |  | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:41 - Jan 29 with 1138 views | BlueBadger |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:34 - Jan 29 by GaryCooper |
What is a lockdown denier? Is it someone that believes that the loss of the economy, Cervical screening, Breast Screening may lead to more deaths than are saved by attempting to lock up a virus?
The only people who should be prosecuted are those who insisted that they were "still shaking hands" Those from the NHS who cleared the hospitals of the elderly without Covid test, those who wasted billions on hospitals that could not be staffed, Ad nauseum. |
You'd have a long way to go before the excess deaths 'caused' by lockdown are trumped by those caused by simply 'letting rip'.
Overwhelming hospital services with increased pressures from one source means that all other services effectively cease.
Most hospitals across the country have either completely stopped or dramatically reduced elective services across the board. Allowing people to mingle freely would only exacerbate this, not improve it as cold cases and therefore hospitalisations would inevitably rise. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 11:06]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:42 - Jan 29 with 1124 views | eireblue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 09:49 - Jan 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
My point is he was one of those spreading the lies. The family are pointing the finger at others like he was completely innocent in all this.
I agree, generally, that those spreading lies should be held accountable. But if Piers Corbyn dies of Covid, no-one's going to be saying "oh how tragic, he was fooled by others."
If a Covid denier dies of Covid I'd rather that than an innocent person trying their best to follow the rules. Unless of course they're mentally impaired in some way, which allows them to be easily influenced. I mean otherwise intelligent people choosing, of their own free will, to be a denier. |
Did he just read the group, or actively spread lies? | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:44 - Jan 29 with 1118 views | BlueBadger |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:40 - Jan 29 by chicoazul |
I’d be interested to know how you could prosecute people for “radicalising” and where the line is ? |
Prosecution for incitement to criminal acts and aiding and abetting is quite a familiar legal concept.
As is intent to endanger life. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:45 - Jan 29 with 1109 views | giant_stow |
bit naughty. |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:48 - Jan 29 with 1104 views | BlueBadger |
| Tragic and avoidable on 09:42 - Jan 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I wonder if critical thinking is on the school curriculum. If it isn't, it should be. |
It used to be, only we called it things like 'English literature', 'History', 'Religious Studies' and 'Media Studies'.
And they were subjects that explicitly taught skills that encouraged you to look for subtexts, evaluate evidence, support your working, etc, etc.
Over the past decade, the move has been back towards more rote learning, because it's 'patriotic', apparently. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 11:00]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:54 - Jan 29 with 1100 views | m14_blue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:34 - Jan 29 by GaryCooper |
What is a lockdown denier? Is it someone that believes that the loss of the economy, Cervical screening, Breast Screening may lead to more deaths than are saved by attempting to lock up a virus?
The only people who should be prosecuted are those who insisted that they were "still shaking hands" Those from the NHS who cleared the hospitals of the elderly without Covid test, those who wasted billions on hospitals that could not be staffed, Ad nauseum. |
Cervical screening and breast screening are not being missed because of lockdown, they’re being missed because of Covid. Lifting lockdown won’t make the virus go away.
The more the virus spreads, and the longer the pandemic lasts, the more acute the pressure on other aspects of the NHS. |  | | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:58 - Jan 29 with 1084 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:54 - Jan 29 by m14_blue |
Cervical screening and breast screening are not being missed because of lockdown, they’re being missed because of Covid. Lifting lockdown won’t make the virus go away.
The more the virus spreads, and the longer the pandemic lasts, the more acute the pressure on other aspects of the NHS. |
I think this is the point that many are missing. The NHS has been fooked even with lockdown measures in place, that's why many services have been stripped back or cancelled during the pandemic. With no lockdown measures in place there would be many, many more people being hospitalised with Covid.
Unless we're proposing warehousing anyone with Covid and leaving them to die without treatment whilst the NHS just focuses on business as usual I fail to see how not having lockdowns in place would help to resolve cut backs on other NHS services. It's really wrong headed thinking. |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 10:59 - Jan 29 with 1076 views | WeWereZombies |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:45 - Jan 29 by giant_stow |
bit naughty. |
Well, didn't you? |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:01 - Jan 29 with 1069 views | giant_stow |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:59 - Jan 29 by WeWereZombies |
Well, didn't you? |
It was half my point yes! You forgot the other guy which was kind of important.
And even Nick Ferrari has found himself challenging the odd bit of govt bs, despite his personal views. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:09 - Jan 29 with 1058 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:07 - Jan 29 by GlasgowBlue |
The problem is he's been going about his daily business not wearing a mask or socially distancing. Potentially putting vulnerable people in danger of catching covid from him.
And yeah. there are cretins out there who believe the whole thing is a hoax on their own accord. But people in the media and politics are reinforcing his beliefs and that makes them complicit imo.
Same as the anti vaxers. |
Re: you first point, indeed. That's what I mean about personal responsibility. The family are pointing the finger at the facebook group... meanwhile he was probably infecting people by himself.
It's a bit of both I guess. Well-known figures spouting sh!te should be held to account, but people should take personal responsibility as well. We can't just keep blaming the media/others for our own failings. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:13 - Jan 29 with 1052 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:37 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
Is that specifically deaths at home where Covid was not recorded as the cause though? I doubt it. Not all Covid deaths have been in hospitals.
Edit: these figures are a couple of weeks old, but the excess deaths at home include deaths related to Covid and excess deaths overall track to deaths where Covid is on the death certificate or where there's been a positive test. It's wrong to say there have been 40k excess deaths that aren't related to Covid.
https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-morta [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 10:43]
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I cannot locate the article I read last week and I may be slightly out but I'm sure it was 38.5k non-covid related deaths in the home. Regardless, that was not really the main point of my post which I would stand by even if there were zero excess deaths in the home. |  | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:15 - Jan 29 with 1048 views | WeWereZombies |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:01 - Jan 29 by giant_stow |
It was half my point yes! You forgot the other guy which was kind of important.
And even Nick Ferrari has found himself challenging the odd bit of govt bs, despite his personal views. |
Sorry, I didn't realise you meant Nick Farage and Nigel Ferrari...
Favourite Nodge manager? John Saunders or Ron Bond? | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:15 - Jan 29 with 1048 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:18 - Jan 29 by urbanblue |
I am in total agreement that Covid Deniers should be held to account in any influence that they may have had on this poor man.
However, I have never heard the expression 'Lockdown Denier' before. Is this anyone who feels that there should always be a debate on Lockdowns and the misery, unhappiness, mental Health issues, poverty and yes, deaths, that extended Lockdowns can cause?
Wondering whether that would make me one. |
To be honest, I missed that in his post. Maybe he meant Covid Denier, as lockdown denier isn't a phrase I've heard either and doesn't make much sense in the context. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:16 - Jan 29 with 1044 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:13 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
I cannot locate the article I read last week and I may be slightly out but I'm sure it was 38.5k non-covid related deaths in the home. Regardless, that was not really the main point of my post which I would stand by even if there were zero excess deaths in the home. |
None of the statistics I can find back up that there have been anything like that number of deaths at home that are not Covid related. The data in the link I provided is pretty clear.
Of course lockdowns aren't ideal, they will have a negative impact on mental health, physical health and the economy. What viable alternatives are there? | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:19 - Jan 29 with 1037 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:34 - Jan 29 by GaryCooper |
What is a lockdown denier? Is it someone that believes that the loss of the economy, Cervical screening, Breast Screening may lead to more deaths than are saved by attempting to lock up a virus?
The only people who should be prosecuted are those who insisted that they were "still shaking hands" Those from the NHS who cleared the hospitals of the elderly without Covid test, those who wasted billions on hospitals that could not be staffed, Ad nauseum. |
There is a legitimate debate to be had regarding the longer term effects on mental health, education, poverty and the economy caused by lockdown. I’m talking about people who claim that lockdown does nothing to reduce infections and deaths. It’s the only measure that brings down infections and deaths.
These people like Fox are encouraging people to break the law that has been brought in to save lives. Especially when we are so close with the vaccination programs. |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:20 - Jan 29 with 1034 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:40 - Jan 29 by eireblue |
Some people think the Holocaust didn’t happen.
Other people act on that opinion or spread that opinion.
Some countries make Holocaust denial illegal.
It is perfectly possible to hold people accountable for spreading falsehoods dressed up as opinion. |
Sure, I accept that however I don't think questioning the net benefit of lockdown policy is even remotely comparable with denying the holocaust happened. Do you? | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:25 - Jan 29 with 1024 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:16 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
None of the statistics I can find back up that there have been anything like that number of deaths at home that are not Covid related. The data in the link I provided is pretty clear.
Of course lockdowns aren't ideal, they will have a negative impact on mental health, physical health and the economy. What viable alternatives are there? |
I'm not arguing the case for alternatives at this point, merely that sections of the media such as Talk Radio have a right to do so and that taking this position does not make them responsible for the death of somebody that chose to increase his own risk due to the actions he took as a grown adult, | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:26 - Jan 29 with 1021 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:42 - Jan 29 by eireblue |
Did he just read the group, or actively spread lies? |
It's not explicit in the story, but it says Mr Copeland ended up muting his cousin on Facebook, which suggests his cousin was spreading the lies as well.
He was also probably spreading the virus given that he refused to wear a mask and continued to go to work. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:28 - Jan 29 with 1015 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:25 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
I'm not arguing the case for alternatives at this point, merely that sections of the media such as Talk Radio have a right to do so and that taking this position does not make them responsible for the death of somebody that chose to increase his own risk due to the actions he took as a grown adult, |
That's not really what they are doing though, not a lot of the time. I've seen very little debate about viable alternatives from the likes of Toby Young and JHB, what I have seen is attempts to downplay the serorisness of Covid and to use that to suggest that lockdown measures are disproportionate. 100k people have lost their lives and that is with us using lockdowns to try to control the spread. How helpful do you think downplaying things is in that context? | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:36 - Jan 29 with 1000 views | chicoazul |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:44 - Jan 29 by BlueBadger |
Prosecution for incitement to criminal acts and aiding and abetting is quite a familiar legal concept.
As is intent to endanger life. |
How would one prove any of that though in these specific instances? And at what point does the line get drawn? Is discussing studies and scientists that disagree with lockdown working the wrong thing to do? Would it be ok to do on here among us few dozen idiots ok but not for a big website or a newspaper? What’s the difference?
You don’t know and neither do I. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:41 - Jan 29 with 993 views | GaryCooper |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:54 - Jan 29 by m14_blue |
Cervical screening and breast screening are not being missed because of lockdown, they’re being missed because of Covid. Lifting lockdown won’t make the virus go away.
The more the virus spreads, and the longer the pandemic lasts, the more acute the pressure on other aspects of the NHS. |
Good points. |  | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:45 - Jan 29 with 986 views | giant_stow |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:15 - Jan 29 by WeWereZombies |
Sorry, I didn't realise you meant Nick Farage and Nigel Ferrari...
Favourite Nodge manager? John Saunders or Ron Bond? |
Stop being a meany you brute!
Dave Stringer, as it happens. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:46 - Jan 29 with 985 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:28 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
That's not really what they are doing though, not a lot of the time. I've seen very little debate about viable alternatives from the likes of Toby Young and JHB, what I have seen is attempts to downplay the serorisness of Covid and to use that to suggest that lockdown measures are disproportionate. 100k people have lost their lives and that is with us using lockdowns to try to control the spread. How helpful do you think downplaying things is in that context? |
You could view it as not very helpful but that's a far cry from holding them responsible for someone's death and having them prosecuted for radicalising someone, which gets more and more ridiculous every time I think about it. | | | |
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