| Tragic and avoidable on 11:51 - Jan 29 with 1687 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:46 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
You could view it as not very helpful but that's a far cry from holding them responsible for someone's death and having them prosecuted for radicalising someone, which gets more and more ridiculous every time I think about it. |
I am not sure they should be platformed either though. Whether you agree or not, their voices and the platforms given to their voices are influential and people will hear them downplaying the pandemic and questioning lockdowns and will take it to heart. We've had restrictions for nearly a year now, lots of people want to believe that lockdowns aren't necessary and will hear the likes of JHB and Toby Young and give their words credence. That is potentially very dangerous in a pandemic, especially when Young in particular has spread quite a lot of misinformation. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 11:53]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 11:55 - Jan 29 with 1683 views | itfcjoe |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:18 - Jan 29 by urbanblue |
I am in total agreement that Covid Deniers should be held to account in any influence that they may have had on this poor man.
However, I have never heard the expression 'Lockdown Denier' before. Is this anyone who feels that there should always be a debate on Lockdowns and the misery, unhappiness, mental Health issues, poverty and yes, deaths, that extended Lockdowns can cause?
Wondering whether that would make me one. |
It's just the people that skirt the line better whilst trying to be controversial to stay in the news - the legitmate face of outright denial but dog whistling to those who do have that opinion and empowering them |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:04 - Jan 29 with 1662 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:18 - Jan 29 by urbanblue |
I am in total agreement that Covid Deniers should be held to account in any influence that they may have had on this poor man.
However, I have never heard the expression 'Lockdown Denier' before. Is this anyone who feels that there should always be a debate on Lockdowns and the misery, unhappiness, mental Health issues, poverty and yes, deaths, that extended Lockdowns can cause?
Wondering whether that would make me one. |
There are certainly people who do everything they can to undermine them, say they're not needed and in any case pointless as the virus doesn't exist/kills no more than the flu, etc (normally they're the same people who are anti-mast and covid deniers too).
They seem to make out that 'the other side' loves lockdowns and can't get enough of them. That we support them for their own sake because we want to give away our liberties. Which is nonsense of course. EVERYONE hates lockdowns and the various measures we're having to take, not seeing loved ones, not being able to do what we want and when, etc. It's just that some (most?) of us recognise the usefulness of these measures in limiting the spread of a highly contagious, deadly virus.
Maybe it'd be better if we didn't use terms like covid denier, lockdown denier, anti-vaxxers, anti-masters and just call them for what they are: tvvats. |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:12 - Jan 29 with 1652 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:51 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
I am not sure they should be platformed either though. Whether you agree or not, their voices and the platforms given to their voices are influential and people will hear them downplaying the pandemic and questioning lockdowns and will take it to heart. We've had restrictions for nearly a year now, lots of people want to believe that lockdowns aren't necessary and will hear the likes of JHB and Toby Young and give their words credence. That is potentially very dangerous in a pandemic, especially when Young in particular has spread quite a lot of misinformation. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 11:53]
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It's very simple, isn't it? They undermine the public health messages sent out by the government. In times like this there should be consequences for that action as it leads to deaths.
There is a separate argument about how effective our particular lockdowns have been, but that's different to undermining them. Lockdowns can be extremely effective, short lived and effective. Our governments' failures (including all UK here, as none have been good) to lead by example, provide clear messages and their misguided attempts to play off health against wealth and not support the vulnerable enough have meant that we've had more than our fair share of lockdowns. They have brought rates down substantially each time they've been used though, even our half-arsed version of them. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:20 - Jan 29 with 1645 views | itfcjoe |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:12 - Jan 29 by Swansea_Blue |
It's very simple, isn't it? They undermine the public health messages sent out by the government. In times like this there should be consequences for that action as it leads to deaths.
There is a separate argument about how effective our particular lockdowns have been, but that's different to undermining them. Lockdowns can be extremely effective, short lived and effective. Our governments' failures (including all UK here, as none have been good) to lead by example, provide clear messages and their misguided attempts to play off health against wealth and not support the vulnerable enough have meant that we've had more than our fair share of lockdowns. They have brought rates down substantially each time they've been used though, even our half-arsed version of them. |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:24 - Jan 29 with 1640 views | eireblue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:20 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
Sure, I accept that however I don't think questioning the net benefit of lockdown policy is even remotely comparable with denying the holocaust happened. Do you? |
So you accept the principle.
I wasn’t creating a comparison, I was using a specific example.
Once the principle is established, it is then when should it be applied.
We are in the middle of a pandemic and people are loosing their lives now.
We police hate speech, because of the consequences, you agree that mis-information and lies can be policed.
Purposefully spreading misinformation in the middle of a pandemic,that has real world consequences, seems a perfectly reasonable thing to apply to that principle. |  | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:31 - Jan 29 with 1632 views | eireblue |
| Tragic and avoidable on 10:58 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
I think this is the point that many are missing. The NHS has been fooked even with lockdown measures in place, that's why many services have been stripped back or cancelled during the pandemic. With no lockdown measures in place there would be many, many more people being hospitalised with Covid.
Unless we're proposing warehousing anyone with Covid and leaving them to die without treatment whilst the NHS just focuses on business as usual I fail to see how not having lockdowns in place would help to resolve cut backs on other NHS services. It's really wrong headed thinking. |
I think this is a point made by some research.
One reason for the higher death toll, could well be down to falling levels of investment in health services, and a greater disparity in wealth. Over the last 10 years, a large section of society has become poorer, less healthy and has less government support.
The party that delivered those outcomes to the U.K. are still in power. | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:41 - Jan 29 with 1626 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:16 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
None of the statistics I can find back up that there have been anything like that number of deaths at home that are not Covid related. The data in the link I provided is pretty clear.
Of course lockdowns aren't ideal, they will have a negative impact on mental health, physical health and the economy. What viable alternatives are there? |
This BBC piece is from last October but shows that between March and September last year there were 24'387 excess deaths in the home, the vast majority of which were not Covid related. If you take the average per Month x 12 you get 41,806 which is just slightly over the the figure I saw quoted a couple of weeks ago of 38'500.
To add context to this number it should also be noted that the number of overall hospital deaths was lower than normal, this could be due to a reluctance of some to present to hospital due to fear of Covid.
Nevertheless, Alzheimer's disease charities called for action over the "heartbreaking" side-effects of lockdown and isolation.
None of this proves anything definitively but I believe it provides perfectly reasonable grounds for debate on the subject, comparing it with wild conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial is unfair and irresponsible in my opinion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54598728 [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:47]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:44 - Jan 29 with 1616 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:41 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
This BBC piece is from last October but shows that between March and September last year there were 24'387 excess deaths in the home, the vast majority of which were not Covid related. If you take the average per Month x 12 you get 41,806 which is just slightly over the the figure I saw quoted a couple of weeks ago of 38'500.
To add context to this number it should also be noted that the number of overall hospital deaths was lower than normal, this could be due to a reluctance of some to present to hospital due to fear of Covid.
Nevertheless, Alzheimer's disease charities called for action over the "heartbreaking" side-effects of lockdown and isolation.
None of this proves anything definitively but I believe it provides perfectly reasonable grounds for debate on the subject, comparing it with wild conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial is unfair and irresponsible in my opinion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54598728 [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:47]
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Remove the "e" at the end of the link.. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:46]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:47 - Jan 29 with 1604 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:44 - Jan 29 by Ewan_Oozami |
Remove the "e" at the end of the link.. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:46]
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Done, thanks. | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:48 - Jan 29 with 1603 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:41 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
This BBC piece is from last October but shows that between March and September last year there were 24'387 excess deaths in the home, the vast majority of which were not Covid related. If you take the average per Month x 12 you get 41,806 which is just slightly over the the figure I saw quoted a couple of weeks ago of 38'500.
To add context to this number it should also be noted that the number of overall hospital deaths was lower than normal, this could be due to a reluctance of some to present to hospital due to fear of Covid.
Nevertheless, Alzheimer's disease charities called for action over the "heartbreaking" side-effects of lockdown and isolation.
None of this proves anything definitively but I believe it provides perfectly reasonable grounds for debate on the subject, comparing it with wild conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial is unfair and irresponsible in my opinion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54598728 [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:47]
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That page isn't available. The bit about most of the deaths at home not being Covid related is key as that seems to contradict all other data that I can find, which shows the excess deaths on the whole (including those at home) mapping closely to the number of deaths attributed to Covid.
Edit - link is now working but makes pretty clear that essentially what is happening is that people who would ordinarily have been admitted to hospital have instead passed away at home. There's little evidence there of significant excess mortality that is non-Covid related, more that non-Covid deaths have shifted from the hospital setting to residential settings. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:59]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 12:56 - Jan 29 with 1597 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:24 - Jan 29 by eireblue |
So you accept the principle.
I wasn’t creating a comparison, I was using a specific example.
Once the principle is established, it is then when should it be applied.
We are in the middle of a pandemic and people are loosing their lives now.
We police hate speech, because of the consequences, you agree that mis-information and lies can be policed.
Purposefully spreading misinformation in the middle of a pandemic,that has real world consequences, seems a perfectly reasonable thing to apply to that principle. |
I accept that some countries choose to prosecute for holocaust denial, yes.
You cannot in this case however prove that anybody questioning the validity of Lockdown policy overall is responsible for somebody dying of Covid.
We know that Lockdown policy causes isolation, which in turn leads to mental health issues that can lead to suicide, would you be ok with the Governement being held directly accountable for these deaths? | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:59 - Jan 29 with 1590 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:56 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
I accept that some countries choose to prosecute for holocaust denial, yes.
You cannot in this case however prove that anybody questioning the validity of Lockdown policy overall is responsible for somebody dying of Covid.
We know that Lockdown policy causes isolation, which in turn leads to mental health issues that can lead to suicide, would you be ok with the Governement being held directly accountable for these deaths? |
Well, bearing in mind they had the power to spend money helping those people with lockdown isolation issues but chose not to.... | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 13:02 - Jan 29 with 1583 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:48 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
That page isn't available. The bit about most of the deaths at home not being Covid related is key as that seems to contradict all other data that I can find, which shows the excess deaths on the whole (including those at home) mapping closely to the number of deaths attributed to Covid.
Edit - link is now working but makes pretty clear that essentially what is happening is that people who would ordinarily have been admitted to hospital have instead passed away at home. There's little evidence there of significant excess mortality that is non-Covid related, more that non-Covid deaths have shifted from the hospital setting to residential settings. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 12:59]
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Try it now, should be working.
Directly from the article :
"Between March and September 2020, there were 24,387 more deaths in England than expected in private homes, and 1,644 in Wales. The large majority did not involve Covid-19".
Again though I am not really interested in being right or wrong on the exact figure, I used it only to highlight that there is a legitimate debate to be had on the subject. | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:08 - Jan 29 with 1578 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:59 - Jan 29 by Ewan_Oozami |
Well, bearing in mind they had the power to spend money helping those people with lockdown isolation issues but chose not to.... |
I'm struggling with his position here. He's not willing to offer alternatives to lockdown so effectively he's not advancing a position that can then be debated. All he is willing to do is say that lockdowns have negative consequences. No sh!t. That's not even a counterargument to the position that lockdowns are necessary, even those that advocate for them acknowledge that they are far from ideal and have negative consequences. However, they drastically reduce case numbers and deaths and so far have proven to be our most effective means of preventing Covid from running riot. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 13:08 - Jan 29 with 1578 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:59 - Jan 29 by Ewan_Oozami |
Well, bearing in mind they had the power to spend money helping those people with lockdown isolation issues but chose not to.... |
Or to look at it another way, should somebody that uses their platform to actively promote lockdown's be held accountable for somebody losing their business as a direct result of Lockdown policy?
I personally think not but it is the same argument that people seem to be using the other way. | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:10 - Jan 29 with 1574 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:02 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
Try it now, should be working.
Directly from the article :
"Between March and September 2020, there were 24,387 more deaths in England than expected in private homes, and 1,644 in Wales. The large majority did not involve Covid-19".
Again though I am not really interested in being right or wrong on the exact figure, I used it only to highlight that there is a legitimate debate to be had on the subject. |
The rest of the article makes it very clear that those excess deaths at home from other causes are reflected in near identical declines in deaths in hospital of those same causes. They are not excess deaths in any meaningful sense. Your initial post implied that 40k additional people had died during Covid of non-Covid causes and that is not the case. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 13:11 - Jan 29 with 1570 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:08 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
Or to look at it another way, should somebody that uses their platform to actively promote lockdown's be held accountable for somebody losing their business as a direct result of Lockdown policy?
I personally think not but it is the same argument that people seem to be using the other way. |
Jesus wept. | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 13:18 - Jan 29 with 1559 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:08 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
I'm struggling with his position here. He's not willing to offer alternatives to lockdown so effectively he's not advancing a position that can then be debated. All he is willing to do is say that lockdowns have negative consequences. No sh!t. That's not even a counterargument to the position that lockdowns are necessary, even those that advocate for them acknowledge that they are far from ideal and have negative consequences. However, they drastically reduce case numbers and deaths and so far have proven to be our most effective means of preventing Covid from running riot. |
My position is made pretty clear in my first post. It is evident that there are both benefits and consequences to lockdowns and therefore it is perfectly reasonable for media platforms to debate them. In the case of Talk Radio they have had numerous interviews with Government ministers who are perfectly happy to take part in such debates on air.
It is also unfair to blame the death linked in the OP on people such as JHB, whether there is a case against people in the facebook group he was linked to I don't know, maybe, but we don't know what the content of this group was and he ultimately joined it of his own free will. | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:23 - Jan 29 with 1551 views | Herbivore |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:18 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
My position is made pretty clear in my first post. It is evident that there are both benefits and consequences to lockdowns and therefore it is perfectly reasonable for media platforms to debate them. In the case of Talk Radio they have had numerous interviews with Government ministers who are perfectly happy to take part in such debates on air.
It is also unfair to blame the death linked in the OP on people such as JHB, whether there is a case against people in the facebook group he was linked to I don't know, maybe, but we don't know what the content of this group was and he ultimately joined it of his own free will. |
To suggest that people like JHB downplaying Covid has no impact on anything is horribly naive. This is quite interesting, correlation rather than causation of course, but still interesting: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/interactive-timeline-tracking-articles-do
The issue here is that you are watering down significantly what many of these commentators are actually doing. They aren't merely debating or questioning lockdowns, they are deliberately underplaying the seriousness of the pandemic. That is potentially very dangerous. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 13:25]
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| Tragic and avoidable on 13:28 - Jan 29 with 1536 views | longtimefan |
| Tragic and avoidable on 11:45 - Jan 29 by giant_stow |
Stop being a meany you brute!
Dave Stringer, as it happens. |
You missed an open goal there Ullaa! You really should have said Paul Lambert  |  | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:30 - Jan 29 with 1532 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:08 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
Or to look at it another way, should somebody that uses their platform to actively promote lockdown's be held accountable for somebody losing their business as a direct result of Lockdown policy?
I personally think not but it is the same argument that people seem to be using the other way. |
Again, I refer you to the Govt's role in this | |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 13:38 - Jan 29 with 1523 views | Harry_Palmer |
| Tragic and avoidable on 13:23 - Jan 29 by Herbivore |
To suggest that people like JHB downplaying Covid has no impact on anything is horribly naive. This is quite interesting, correlation rather than causation of course, but still interesting: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/interactive-timeline-tracking-articles-do
The issue here is that you are watering down significantly what many of these commentators are actually doing. They aren't merely debating or questioning lockdowns, they are deliberately underplaying the seriousness of the pandemic. That is potentially very dangerous. [Post edited 29 Jan 2021 13:25]
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I think any piece that describes highly qualified scientists as 'morons' just because they have a different view is not something I am going to offer too much credibility to.
Look, we clearly have different viewpoints on this and I am perfectly ok with that. I understand where you are coming from and I don't feel the need to continue this any further to try and change your mind. Its all good.
Lambert out! | | | |
| Tragic and avoidable on 14:27 - Jan 29 with 1500 views | bluelagos |
I've heard of Covid deniers and lockdown sceptics Glassers, never a lockdown denier.
Presume you mean lockdown sceptics.
Lockdown sceptics argue (and I don't agree with them) that the undoubted downsides of lockdowns outweigh the benefits of lockdowns. That isn't a position I agree with them but you want to prosecute them for making those arguments?
Covid deniers - I have a lot more sympathy with your position. These people are spreading lies that directly lead to some people taking actions that will lead to more deaths.
The two are very different and I think it worth treating them differently too. |  |
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| Tragic and avoidable on 14:54 - Jan 29 with 1487 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Tragic and avoidable on 12:56 - Jan 29 by Harry_Palmer |
I accept that some countries choose to prosecute for holocaust denial, yes.
You cannot in this case however prove that anybody questioning the validity of Lockdown policy overall is responsible for somebody dying of Covid.
We know that Lockdown policy causes isolation, which in turn leads to mental health issues that can lead to suicide, would you be ok with the Governement being held directly accountable for these deaths? |
People commit suicide for a variety of reasons. I think you'd find it very hard to prove that a lockdown caused someone's suicide, unless they explicitly said so in a suicide note. Comparing it to someone questioning the validity of lockdowns being prosecuted, because that questioning led to someone's death, is a massive leap. It's not just "questioning lockdowns" people have a problem with - it's the active promotion of lies which should find people held to account (such as that Covid doesn't exist or it's not as bad as they're saying, masks do more harm than good etc.) |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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